Overseership is Biblical, the abuse of that office is the problem. Most are teaching what is not in accord with sound doctrine...the Apostles’ doctrine.
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Thelyphthora Martin Madan
- Thread starter Jennifer
- Start date
I’ve personally seen too many pastors that have created a position of leadership within their church and place themselves above the family structure and thereby creating a hierarchy of wife, husband, pastor, Christ and then G-d. The proper perspective of wife, husband, Christ and then G-d, is the Biblical goal. It’s time to go back to the Biblical structure for the church as well as the family.
I finished the book, and man, was that good!!
Cue Viola's Pagan Christianity
So how do you rectify that with Hebrews 13:17?
Just remembered an old around the military and places of work. “Stay in your own lane!”
Businesses and the military use position and rank to create a hierarchy. Pastors have a “lane” that is described in the Bible and it appears Hebrews 13:17 would be part of their lane. So long as they don’t start creating a position that would supersede a ‘head of household’, stay in their lane, things should proceed in a Biblical fashion.
Yes yes yes... this has been a major point I have been raising for years. Mostly in reference to government involvement on the homosexual marriage issue... but it also clearly applies here as well...
That's good Philip. So how would that play out in real life?
Are you prepared for the very real possibility that asking for the doctrines of men to be smashed may very well expose other holes in your own doctrines? That is a very scary leap that is worth taking, but likely will shake you to the core....
Oh yes it will. I’m riding that earthquake as I type this reply!!!
Tough thought @rockfox. I’ve seen pastors like the control and if trained right, the membership falls in line. I don’t have, nor have the ability to figure out the percentage of pastors who illegitimately control the sheeple in their church, but I know it happens.
Sorry I wasn't clear. What does it mean for pastors to stay in their lane? What things fall in that lane? What things don't? How does that work in real life?
It seems like it is real easy to use morality to exert an awful lot of control in peoples lives.
My question would come down to: what makes them a pastor? Is the current system of Christianity really even adequate to determine that? Honestly I have received much more sound scriptural advice from men on this forum than I ever have from any “pastor” I have ever sat under... none of them that I have spoken to claim to be a pastor. And one of them literally told me the other day “I’m just a guy” These men have influenced me for the better in my walk with the Lord far more than anyone else has.
Men need men, a brotherhood of encouragement, wise counsel, etc. We need, even want, accountability. What we do not need is others, men or women usurping authority.
Awesome words of edification brother @Pacman !
I second that!
BF has become our church at times and in ways! Many of the folks on here have greatly encouraged my family and I in our walk with the Lord! We are thankful for the fellowship here!
A funny thing to note ... is that many of the dudes on here are former pastors I think lol or at least have been elders / leadership.
I second that!
BF has become our church at times and in ways! Many of the folks on here have greatly encouraged my family and I in our walk with the Lord! We are thankful for the fellowship here!
A funny thing to note ... is that many of the dudes on here are former pastors I think lol or at least have been elders / leadership.
I knew people that would ask their pastor if it were ok to buy this or that. Usually big ticket items. That control in people’s lives is what I’m talking about with staying in their lanes. Advise? Sure. But make the decision, IMO, is wrong.
‘In their lane’ would be things like teaching, equipping the saints for the work of the ministry, preach, edify the body, administration, set the example, etc.
Assuming authority in families, teaching his opinion of the scriptures instead of correct interpretation of scriptures, he is not to add to the scriptures or take away, but mostly, what I’m saying is allow the head of family be the head of family.
In real life? Let the men be the man of G-d he has been called to be. The pastors should not try to be G-d’s right hand man. G-d already has that. I don’t know of any better way of saying this, a pastor should lead and ptrotect the sheep, but not control the sheeple. It’s a fine distinction between the two.
‘In their lane’ would be things like teaching, equipping the saints for the work of the ministry, preach, edify the body, administration, set the example, etc.
Assuming authority in families, teaching his opinion of the scriptures instead of correct interpretation of scriptures, he is not to add to the scriptures or take away, but mostly, what I’m saying is allow the head of family be the head of family.
In real life? Let the men be the man of G-d he has been called to be. The pastors should not try to be G-d’s right hand man. G-d already has that. I don’t know of any better way of saying this, a pastor should lead and ptrotect the sheep, but not control the sheeple. It’s a fine distinction between the two.
I am fine with obeying whoever has the rule over me. The problem is that there are s lot of voices that think that they have the right and responsibility to rule over me. If we all fell into line as they want, we wouldn’t be here discussing plural marriage.
On this site, for instance, the administration must be obeyed, but that’s simply for this site. They don’t have any responsibility in how I live my life.
So that’s the crux of the matter, who are we supposed to allow to rule over us?
IMO 17 is an extension of the earlier admonition in the chapter
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor†forsake thee.
So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and forever.
I have several issues with the idea that this is talking about a pastor. The earlier context begins with the marriage bed and continues as if its addressed to a family.
Verse 17 mentions those that must give account for your soul. Ive never seen anything else that indicates that another man will give an account for me or my family, but I will give account for everything that happens under my covering.
IMO, both of these passages have been used to usurpe the authority of the father as king and priest over his own house.
Keep in mind, under a Melchizedek priesthood, there is no substitutionary priesthood. The father is the king and priest. Christ is the High Priest. God is our Father. We are all just brothers and sons over our own household.
Most of it is pretty good. Off on who the Nicolaitans were because of utilizing later definitions given by men who are trying to figure them out without searching historical content/context. From what I know, the Nicolaitans have nothing to do with hierarchy.
Kinda surprised that they didnt even mention the Ephesians 4 passage about Apostles, prophets, evangelist, preachers and teachers. Not that I believe that passage promotes hierarchy, but it is a very germane passage for the topic among others.
Kinda surprised that they didnt even mention the Ephesians 4 passage about Apostles, prophets, evangelist, preachers and teachers. Not that I believe that passage promotes hierarchy, but it is a very germane passage for the topic among others.
I thought it odd when he said none of the letters in the New Testament were written to a pastor or head leader but to whole congregations. What about 1 and 2 timothy and Titus?