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Thelyphthora Martin Madan

Pacman said:

I found this helpful.
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Thanks @Pacman, that was a good teaching. One thing I took away from the teaching (which only confirms again what I’ve learned) the responsibility of the husband to protect and pray over the wife/s is parallel to Christ protection of the church. This gives us a lot to chew on when we think about it.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
To my knowledge, neither were pastors or deacon. They were evangelists of a sort
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Yeah I don’t think it tells us their exact position or gifting, although it would seem that Timothy was ordained to something, but he was told to appoint elders and set things in order. Sounds rather leader-ish to me.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
Yeah I don’t think it tells us their exact position or gifting, although it would seem that Timothy was ordained to something, but he was told to appoint elders and set things in order. Sounds rather leader-ish to me.
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My thought, we have ‘leader-ish people in the work place. Set the goals, inventories and schedules. They are needed. But these same leader-ish people do not tell us how to run our families. Our families and relationship with Christ are personal between us and God. Leadership needs to respect those boundaries.
 
Phillip said:
My thought, we have ‘leader-ish people in the work place. Set the goals, inventories and schedules. They are needed. But these same leader-ish people do not tell us how to run our families. Our families and relationship with Christ are personal between us and God. Leadership needs to respect those boundaries.
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I agree with much of what he says in the video, but to say that none of the letters in the New Testament where written to a leader individually is not a true statement. Maybe i should watch it again to be sure that is what he was implying.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
I agree with much of what he says in the video, but to say that none of the letters in the New Testament where written to a leader individually is not a true statement. Maybe i should watch it again to be sure that is what he was implying.
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They put out a follow up as well...

 
rockfox said:
Timothy was considered an apostle (small 'a') by the early church.
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I almost went there....

Clearly Timothy and Titus had the authority of apostles (or if that makes you uncomfortable, "church planters"). He was addressing them as leaders, whatever particular title goes on the biz card.
 
andrew said:
I almost went there....

Clearly Timothy and Titus had the authority of apostles (or if that makes you uncomfortable, "church planters"). He was addressing them as leaders, whatever particular title goes on the biz card.
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Oh to have the time and skillz to whip up and post a pithy business card... :D
 
andrew said:
I almost went there....

Clearly Timothy and Titus had the authority of apostles (or if that makes you uncomfortable, "church planters"). He was addressing them as leaders, whatever particular title goes on the biz card.
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No problem there, they were ‘sent ones’ ;)

Christ was the Apostle of The Father

The Twelve were the Apostles of Christ

The rest were apostles of The 12 Apostles of The Lamb or the church in general.

By the way, I’m pretty sure it’s Paul’s name that is written in Heaven amongst the names of the 12 Apostles of Christ, not Matthias.

Apostles only have the authority given them by the one who sent them. Jesus said He taught what The Father told him to say. The Apostles taught what they received from Christ. A sent one today teaches the Apostles’ doctrine, and if they go beyond that they have overstepped their bounds. :)
 
1 Corinthians 3: Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.
Note the absence of apostles in the chain of ownership/command.

1 Corinthians 4:6-8And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?†? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you

Paul’s viewpoint was not one of authority, but influence. Christ is the authority always. Apostles etc are just ministers to other believers and are effective in that gift to the degree that their knowledge grants influence. An elders commission is to help establish other men as righteous kings and priests before God, ready and able to answer for their own household.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
1 Corinthians 3: Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.
Note the absence of apostles in the chain of ownership/command.

1 Corinthians 4:6-8And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?†? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you

Paul’s viewpoint was not one of authority, but influence. Christ is the authority always. Apostles etc are just ministers to other believers and are effective in that gift to the degree that their knowledge grants influence. An elders commission is to help establish other men as righteous kings and priests before God, ready and able to answer for their own household.
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Exactly. An Apostle’s/apostle’s authority is in the message they convey from the sender. It’s not a hierarchy, it’s the chain of custody. Christ didn’t speak his own words, but those of the Father. The 12 spoke what they were given by Christ. They said they were the servants of all. We speak the message that The Father spoke to the Son, that the Son spoke to the Apostles, that they wrote down for us. If Jesus didn’t change the message and the Apostles didn’t change the message, neither should we. And we can speak nothing else, with any authority, than what is Written.
 
Pacman said:
They put out a follow up as well...

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What he calls the Moses Model is actually the Yeshua Model. The original Moses Model initiated and instituted a substitutionary priesthood that our modern Christian model follows that is vested with authority and headship.

He spends a lot of time dancing around the fact that the original Moses Model had a singular Nasi over the people under Moses. If he was truly expounding on a Moses Model, he would have to support a head pastor over the people and subordinate to Moses. In the 119 “Moses Model” Yeshua is both Moses and Aaron. IMO this is circular at best and intellectually dishonest at worst. Yeshua would never be the equivalent comparison with Aaron who would have been subordinate to Moses. In a Levitical priesthood, it is impossible to remove a human mediator between God and man. Numbers 27:15-17 is proof of this. Only in a Melchizedek priesthood does a man approach God without a human Nasi. The Moses Model institutionalized it. The Melchizedek Model restored it to the head of the household.

The etymology lesson is interesting, but totally misses that the reason that there was a group called the Nicolaitans was because they followed the heresy of Nicolas, who was one of the original Jerusalem deacons. It had nothing to do with a victory over the laity. Too funny, and yet sad.
 
They had a little more authority than that. They approved the elders. They established the churches and how they should run. They commanded the believers to withdraw from members who did not follow the instructions they handed them.
 
rockfox said:
They had a little more authority than that. They approved the elders. They established the churches and how they should run. They commanded the believers to withdraw from members who did not follow the instructions they handed them.
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I think I understand and agree with this statement, but I’d like to point out that the apostles approach towards error in the church was not authoritarian but rather authority by both reason and revelation. Paul especially but also the other apostles, utilized logic to convince others of the truth of their statements instead of high handing it. There are occasions where they instruct/command? the different churches to do certain things, but its always followed by reasons why they should do it.

I see this as leadership by influence and a knowledge of truth rather than leadership by status or fiat.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
I think I understand and agree with this statement, but I’d like to point out that the apostles approach towards error in the church was not authoritarian but rather authority by both reason and revelation. Paul especially but also the other apostles, utilized logic to convince others of the truth of their statements instead of high handing it. There are occasions where they instruct/command? the different churches to do certain things, but its always followed by reasons why they should do it.

I see this as leadership by influence and a knowledge of truth rather than leadership by status or fiat.
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I agree. But this wasn't just some friend of theirs sqawking about his opinion. He said don't do x. If someone does x withdraw from them. And if someone does do x the elders which he appointed will see to it that the assembly shuns him until he stops doing x.

Admittedly this is hard to conceive in a time when the only people who ever get shunned are those who try and actually obey the teachings of the apostles.
 
rockfox said:
Admittedly this is hard to conceive in a time when the only people who ever get shunned are those who try and actually obey the teachings of the apostles.
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Touché!
 
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