What if Adam and Eve never ate from The Tree of Life?

[AbrahamSolomon]

that would be true IF God knows EVERYTHING from all eternity past. Of course then one might ask at what point in eternity did God come to have this knowledge or was there ever a time that he did not. It is much simpler to believe that our freewill is actually free. names can be added to, or blotted out, of the book of life. and that God the Grandmaster of all is not intimidated by freewill neither does He fear the unknown about them, He can deal with us just as we have to deal with Him and each other, with faith being a componet of true love and relationship.

Jim, Respectfully we have two totally different understanding of G-d.
The G-d of my forefathers did not become G-d He is G-d and what is G-d?

Everything came from G-d, G-d Wrote Everything from Before Time and we are His enjoyment.
G-d is just G-d and that is Everything and nothing could or would exist without Him like The Fabric of Space and Time.

 

[steve]

that is crazy talk.
God is willing that none should perish, yet they do.
God is not the author of evil. He never intended for sin to occur with man or demons or fallen angels or Satan.
God's plan was prepared in case sin did occur.
Christ's death was 1st that He would be faithful thru death and enter into His Glory,
2nd it would provide for the sin problem, should that become necessary. (as it did)
Without the sin problem Jesus was still destined for death as the means to prove his total allegiance to His father (as did Isaac) that He would then be exalted to His Fathers right hand.
God had a plan, It allowed for freewill to be free. God could modify His plan as needed to adjust to the actions of freewill. (it was not original plan to wander in the wilderness for 40yrs)
God is not incapable of dealing with and reacting to freewill.
God's Plan was in general predestined (with contingency's for interacting with freewill)
The individual is not predestined, they have freewill. neither Judas nor the coming antichrist was predestined to Hell. God just knows the heart of man and since sin has entered there will always be those who would fill the role.
A God who is acting in faith with our freewill is a God of LOVE.
A God Who predestined sin and hell and rape and murder would be sadistic.

Well said.

 

[steve]

Everything from Before Time and we are His enjoyment.

There wouldn’t be any enjoyment in creating beings that are preprogrammed and you already know their every move.

 

[NickF]

For your consideration:


Genesis 6:6
and Jehovah repenteth that He hath made man in the earth, and He grieveth Himself -- unto His heart.

 

[The Revolting Man]

You paint a picture of a G-d who only knows so much and is editing His Plan based on others Free will.
But for G-d to be all Knowing He has to know your final destination and that is set in stone.

Our God enjoys paradoxes. He likes solving the unsolvable and reconciling the unreconcilable. He can create an object He couldn’t move and then He’d move it. You can never pick one half of the paradox and stick with it. Our God works every side and upholds and transcends them all. You’re focusing on His omniscience omnipotence and then extrapolating out that He must have ordained certain events.

You’re forgetting His justice and mercy though and probably host of other things I’m not thinking of. You have to look at the whole picture, or at least as much of it as we can see.

 

[AbrahamSolomon]

There wouldn’t be any enjoyment in creating beings that are preprogrammed and you already know their every move.

Yet G-d Knows Everything and Enjoys it.

 

[AbrahamSolomon]

For your consideration:


Genesis 6:6
and Jehovah repenteth that He hath made man in the earth, and He grieveth Himself -- unto His heart.

Do we understand what it would mean if G-d does not Know of All things?
How could G-d Know if He was G-d Alone? How would He Know how everything will end up?
Would He be G-d? If He was unable to Know All Things?

 

[AbrahamSolomon]

Our God enjoys paradoxes. He likes solving the unsolvable and reconciling the unreconcilable. He can create an object He couldn’t move and then He’d move it. You can never pick one half of the paradox and stick with it. Our God works every side and upholds and transcends them all. You’re focusing on His omniscience omnipotence and then extrapolating out that He must have ordained certain events.

You’re forgetting His justice and mercy though and probably host of other things I’m not thinking of. You have to look at the whole picture, or at least as much of it as we can see.

G-d Knows Everything and that is why I Pray to Forgive us all!
In Truth who are any of us? We all have sins and some might have more or less yet we all sin.
It pains my heart to feel that the lost is lost and the saved is saved who are any of us to be picked over another?
But, even with that my heart won't let me from trying to be a Light in The Darkness!

 

[FollowingHim]

You paint a picture of a G-d who only knows so much and is editing His Plan based on others Free will.
But for G-d to be all Knowing He has to know your final destination and that is set in stone.

If I watch a video of an old running race, I know the outcome - Fred won - and it is set in stone, nobody can change the fact that Fred won.
But in the middle of the race, Fred did not know he would win. He had to run as if he might lose.
The fact that I, in the future, know the outcome of the race, makes no difference to the real experience of Fred running that race. He could have won, and he could have lost. But through massive effort, he managed to win.

If God knows everything, future and past, then the only real difference to the above story is that he can watch the video before the race even happens.
That does not change the reality of the race for Fred. He still could have lost. He just managed to win. He had complete free will, and the result was not set in stone.
God just got early access to the recording.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

God just got early access to the recording.

That would be true if the future has already happened. would that mean that we are just repeating what we have already done? The Idea that God is not experiencing time and life with us is very problematic for me. If God is so smart, then he does not need to know the future in detail. He can act in "real time" just as we have to and still do it much better than we. God has laid out His plan, He brings it to pass just as we bring our plans to pass. In our implementation of our plans, we deal with obstacles as they occur, some of them we anticipate, sometimes things happen we have no control over, yet we find a way to work around problems as they arise. Just as we deal with freewill and others fail to meet our expectations, yet we overcome and find others to accomplish our goals, God has done the same. We cannot see clearly how God would have brought Christ through Judah, if Saul and his house had remained obedient, yet God apparently had a plan that could have accomplished this. God did not have to have Saul to sin or Adam. God did not nor does he now need sin. God is working with, and around freewills, to once and for all show that sin is not the proper path. He is letting this play out, yet He will intervene before we destroy everything and when He sets everything right again there will be tested and tried freewills who are just as committed to His program of righteousness as He is. The rebellious nature will have been proved to be the wrong path for all to see. God will then never allow sin to spread into his new creation, and rebellion in all forms will have been shown to be error.

 

[AbrahamSolomon]

If I watch a video of an old running race, I know the outcome - Fred won - and it is set in stone, nobody can change the fact that Fred won.
But in the middle of the race, Fred did not know he would win. He had to run as if he might lose.
The fact that I, in the future, know the outcome of the race, makes no difference to the real experience of Fred running that race. He could have won, and he could have lost. But through massive effort, he managed to win.

If God knows everything, future and past, then the only real difference to the above story is that he can watch the video before the race even happens.
That does not change the reality of the race for Fred. He still could have lost. He just managed to win. He had complete free will, and the result was not set in stone.
God just got early access to the recording.

Only to us do we have free will, but to G-d The Only Power in The Whole Creation itself its already done and we are just reruns to G-d.

 

[frederick]

The Idea that God is not experiencing time and life with us is very problematic for me. If God is so smart, then he does not need to know the future in detail.

God says He knows the end from the beginning (cf. Is. 46:10; 48:3, 5 etc.) and He has already given a lot of specific detail in prophecy regarding future events therefore I can understand why you'd have a problem if you don't believe that.

God has laid out His plan, He brings it to pass just as we bring our plans to pass. In our implementation of our plans, we deal with obstacles as they occur, some of them we anticipate, sometimes things happen we have no control over, yet we find a way to work around problems as they arise. Just as we deal with freewill and others fail to meet our expectations, yet we overcome and find others to accomplish our goals, God has done the same.

God is not like us! Psalm 50: 21, You thought that I was altogether like you; But I will reprove you.

In the Bible we are told He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). For Him to choose some for salvation He must have known we would need salvation, therefore He must also have known there would be sin and all its consequences. Gal. 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. The Saviour came at exactly the time determined to accomplish His purpose in fulfilment of all that was prophesied. The God we read of in the Bible, and believe in for eternal salvation, is all knowing and transcends time.

 

[The Revolting Man]

The wrinkle in all of this is the Revelation. Christ said that John would not die Union he had seen rJess things. So when he was caught up did he literally see them for real? I suspect yes. In a certain sense John time travelled.

 

[steve]

I can just imagine Yah getting a chuckle out of us trying to understand complexities from a few Scriptures that He never meant to be definitive.

The possibility that we are arrogant in trying to find explanations for things that He doesn’t intend us to understand at this point does exist.
Remember when Yeshua said that thing about drinking his blood and eating his flesh, those that just had to understand it couldn’t handle what they thought he meant.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

�


9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

12Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:

Notice the above scripture is focused on what God is doing not us. We are given the challenge to hearken.

of course we are not exactly like God but . . .

1:26	And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27	So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

We are in His image and likeness.

God did give man dominion. we have impact and input upon our existence.

God over and over speaks that our choice matters. Terms 'If' and whoso and whosoever are throughout scripture. all pointless language for a pre-determined outcome.

God brought the animals to Adam to see what he would call them. God told Cain he could choose to do right. God repented he made man in less than 1600 years. At Abraham's and Isaac's test Abraham was told was told NOW I Know. It was not Gods plan for Lot to go to Zoar. God repented the Exodus in 2 months' time. It was not the original plan to wander 40 yrs. in the wilderness. It was not Gods plan for Achan to sin and bring defeat. It was never God's plan for the Idolatry to be practiced, bringing Israel particularly in to repeated servitude. It was not Gods will for Saul to sin, not for Davit to commit adultery and murder. Did God tell Jonah to Lie? I think not. Did God tell Isaiah to lie to Hezekiah? Jesus would have gathered them but they would not. Jesus even asked whether He would find faith on the earth at His return. Paul sure wasted a lot of time trying to persuade Agrippa if his decision was already known.

God knows his goals. God works with and around freewill to accomplish them. We have real choices to make. God allows our will to be free, unless we sin and harden ourselves to the point where He is justified in using us like clay in a potters hands. There is a demonic realm seeking to influence man and God factors that in, as well as, His power to intervene and control that realm. For example in Daniel God shows that He controls the rise and fall of Kingdoms by His binding and loosing of spiritual powers that rise as He blocks those He wishes to suppress. God finds men who will be obedient. He brings prophecy to pass in many ways. His plan is Known to Him but our response to it is an act of faith on our part as well as His promises to us are given in faith that we will be obedient.

Jonah and Nineveh demonstrate that prophecy is conditional even when the conditions are not specified.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

In the Bible we are told He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). For Him to choose some for salvation He must have known we would need salvation,

Notice we are chosen IN HIM. when did we get in HIM? Answer at salvation. If you go back to the beginning, then was there ever a time we weren't in Him? All are chosen i.e. called to be saved. If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. We get IN HIM If we believe and receive. God has determined that Whosoever will and He is the one who stands at the door and knocks is for any man! God never choose for only certain ones to be saved individually from all eternity past. He did make a plan for whosoever will.

 

[frederick]

All are chosen i.e. called to be saved.

Perhaps it would be good to clarify our terms so that we are not misunderstanding each other as I think we may not disagree a great deal. In Eph. 1:4, when speaking of God choosing, we understand that to be "selecting out" for Himself. The word used is in the aorist middle here and implies choosing out for oneself; God choosing out for Himself those He will save. However, the word often translated "called" in reference to the saints, e.g., in Rom. 1:7; 8:28; 1 Cor. 1:2; etc., refers to the divine summons. It is a summons by God for those who are dead in trespasses and sins (cf. Eph. 2:1, 5) to come to Him. Jesus exemplified this divine summoning when He raised Lazarus from the dead in John 11:38-44.

We are told the choosing occurred before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4); i.e., before creation, but the calling or summons occurs at the time God summons the dead sinner to life in Christ. Shalom