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What is fornication?

The Revolting Man

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Well I can tell you what's it not; sex before marriage. But that's not really the question. The question is "What is it?"

We'll get there but we must start with this one fact, it's not sex before marriage. This is completely impossible and even a little silly when you look into it. Now I know that is counterintuitive for some of us. After all, the literal definition of the word fornication is in fact sex outside of wedlock, at least it is in English dictionaries. Unfortunately we don't have any inspired English dictionaries and so we have to check the definition against Scripture. I will be happy to wait while you check but so far I have been unable to find anything in the Bible that suggests that there is a sin of sex before marriage. I know that some can argue that it is implied but I can argue much more convincingly that those instances are referring to something else that we won't go in to right now because it's a theological equivalent of China; probably relevant at some point but for the moment just a big distraction.

Okay, so what is fornication? Well most of the time we see fornication used in our English Bibles it is the translation of the Greek word porneia. There may be exceptions. I haven't made an exhaustive search. Now you may recognize this word porneia, or it at least should sound familiar. You probably ran across it when you were reading articles and jokes in some magazine you can't recall the name of. Some of us know it from pornography or porn. But what does it mean? Well it doesn't mean "sex before marriage."

The consensus, and I know the risk I'm taking when I say that here, is that it means something like "prohibited sexual acts." It's not defined anymore than that. Now I know this isn't the Hebrew roots section but the only exhaustive list of prohibited sexual acts is in the Old Testament. Since they aren't listed out anywhere in the New we must refer back to that list to find out what porneia is.

This isn't just an academic question. When the Apostles sent Paul out from Council of Jerusalem the list of rules they said gentile believers had to follow was VERY short. The sexual laws were reduced to some version of "abstain from fornication(porneia)." You see what happens if fornication only means "don't have sex outside or marriage". A whole host of things become permissible, including bestiality and incest which is not mentioned in the New Testament. It's patently ridiculous that the Apostles would have told the gentile believers that the only thing they had to do was not have sex outside of marriage. That didn't even begin to address a whole host of things like homosexuality and incest. Think about it you could have just "married" your sister and been fine. It's silly.

So there you go, I believe the word translated as fornication is pointing us back to The Law for the list of sexual sins and has nothing to do with the unlisted sin of "sex before marriage." Feel free to share your opinions.
 
I agree that the word "pornea" points to all sexual sin as defined by God in his word. However, I don't think that creates a loophole for sex with unmarried women either. I'm sure you aren't suggesting that, but I want to clarify least someone make such an assumption. Believers cannot use women sexually, and then abandon them.

The old Testament declares this:
Exodus 22:16
“If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife.

The New testament records this:
1 Corinthians 7:36
If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry—it is no sin.

I know some men still see loopholes. Both of these cases by implication refer to women available for marriage. If your argument is then that they are not "available for marriage" thus not required to marry, such cases would then be adultery.

However, if these verses are understood correctly a godly man cannot use, abuse, and abandon women this way.
 
Deuteronomy 23:17-18
[17] There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. [18] Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the Lord thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

Moral principle established in the law. Whores are an abomination don’t let any be found amongst the daughters of Israel and don’t bring the money from or for her into Gods house. Also a sodomite from what I understand is a male temple prostitute. So the same thing is being said wether it’s a woman whore or a male prostitute.

1 Corinthians 6:15-17
[15] Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. [16] What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. [17] But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Whores are bad don’t visit them it is fornication. And it’s abusing the gift of sex that God intended to be used within marriage.
 
So if the condensed sexual laws include everything in the Old Testament, in your view, does that also include sex before marriage?

If not, why not?
 
I think what Zec is referring to is, correct me if I’m wrong Zec, what the modern church refers to as fornication. My mom, as an example, became pregnant with me before they had a wedding ceremony. My dad did the right thing and took my mom as his wife and never put her away. No sin was committed even though the “church” would say otherwise.
 
I agree that the word "pornea" points to all sexual sin as defined by God in his word. However, I don't think that creates a loophole for sex with unmarried women either. I'm sure you aren't suggesting that, but I want to clarify least someone make such an assumption. Believers cannot use women sexually, and then abandon them.

The old Testament declares this:
Exodus 22:16
“If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife.

The New testament records this:
1 Corinthians 7:36
If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry—it is no sin.

I know some men still see loopholes. Both of these cases by implication refer to women available for marriage. If your argument is then that they are not "available for marriage" thus not required to marry, such cases would then be adultery.

However, if these verses are understood correctly a godly man cannot use, abuse, and abandon women this way.
I agree entirely.
 
So if the condensed sexual laws include everything in the Old Testament, in your view, does that also include sex before marriage?

If not, why not?
No. Because it's not listed in the Old Testament as far as I can tell. The only things that are prohibited as far as I can tell is adultery, incest, male homosexuality and bestiality. I'm prepared to be shown more but so far I haven't found them.
 
I think what Zec is referring to is, correct me if I’m wrong Zec, what the modern church refers to as fornication. My mom, as an example, became pregnant with me before they had a wedding ceremony. My dad did the right thing and took my mom as his wife and never put her away. No sin was committed even though the “church” would say otherwise.
Not only was there no sin committed here I would say there were perfectly in line with the Bible's standards.
 
I think what Zec is referring to is, correct me if I’m wrong Zec, what the modern church refers to as fornication. My mom, as an example, became pregnant with me before they had a wedding ceremony. My dad did the right thing and took my mom as his wife and never put her away. No sin was committed even though the “church” would say otherwise.

Agreed. No sin, and it could not even be considered fornication because it has been covered.
 
So there you go, I believe the word translated as fornication is pointing us back to The Law for the list of sexual sins and has nothing to do with the unlisted sin of "sex before marriage." Feel free to share your opinions.
This one in particular is right in the middle of the listed sexual sins you’re referring to, that’s not there.
Leviticus 18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour’s ishshah, to defile thyself with her. 26. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations;

I believe that this is the same woman that you insisted wasn’t married in Deuteronomy 22:23 &24 because she hadnt had sex yet. If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s ishshah: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.


Leviticus 19:29
Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.

Leviticus 21:7. They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane;

Deuteronomy 22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

Deuteronomy 23:17 &18. There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Numbers 21:5. And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
This is the same verse that is referred to as porneia in 1 Corinthians 10:8. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Ezekiel 23:3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

Hosea 4:13, 14 They sacrifice upon the tops of the mountains, and burn incense upon the hills, under oaks and poplars and elms, because the shadow thereof is good: therefore your daughters shall commit whoredom, and your spouses shall commit adultery.
I will not punish your daughters when they commit whoredom, nor your spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves are separated with whores, and they sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall.
 
Leviticus 18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour’s ishshah, to defile thyself with her. 26. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations;

That one in particular is right in the middle of the listed sexual sins you’re referring to, that’s not there.

Leviticus 19:29
Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.

Leviticus 21:7. They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane;

Deuteronomy 22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

Deuteronomy 23:17 &18. There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Numbers 21:5. And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
This is the same verse that is referred to as porneia in 1 Corinthians 10:8. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Ezekiel 23:3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

Hosea 4:13, 14 They sacrifice upon the tops of the mountains, and burn incense upon the hills, under oaks and poplars and elms, because the shadow thereof is good: therefore your daughters shall commit whoredom, and your spouses shall commit adultery.
I will not punish your daughters when they commit whoredom, nor your spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves are separated with whores, and they sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall.
Everything you just listed is adultery.
 
Not according to my Bible. IF yours says so, lets see the references besides thus sayeth the Zec.

It’s obvious that you havent taken the time to study as you admitted earlier. If you’re gonna make outlandish claims with nothing to back them up with besides your opinion, youre just wasting everyone else’s time.
 
Not according to my Bible. IF yours says so, lets see the references besides thus sayeth the Zec.

It’s obvious that you havent taken the time to study as you admitted earlier. If you’re gonna make outlandish claims with nothing to back them up with besides your opinion, youre just wasting everyone else’s time.
Calmly sir, I know this is an emotional topic but there are real people on the other end of the intraweb.
Nothing I said was outlandish. I did say that I hadn't made an exhaustive list but that was mostly false modesty. I was trying to be friendly.

Your rather long list of verses is a great representation of verse that accuse women of whoredom. But they do not contain the definition of whoredom. Would you like to research that definition and see if it colors your opinion a little bit? You came in to this with bith guns blazing whoredom is sex outside of marriage and I'm not sure (more false modesty, I'm actually pretty sure) that is not the case. I'll give you some time to look it up and see if you want to stand by that or not.
 
Numbers 21:5. And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.

This is the same verse that is referred to as fornication
in 1 Corinthians 10:8. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

What Moses called whoredom in Numbers is called fornication in 1 Corinthians 8

Adultery is what spouses do, whoredom is what daughters do according to Hosea 4:13,14
 
According to Strongs #2181 zanah (translated as whore/whoredom)

  1. to commit fornication, be a harlot, play the harlot
    1. (Qal)
      1. to be a harlot, act as a harlot, commit fornication
      2. to commit adultery
      3. to be a cult prostitute
      4. to be unfaithful (to God) (fig.)
    2. (Pual) to play the harlot
    3. (Hiphil)
      1. to cause to commit adultery
      2. to force into prostitution
      3. to commit fornication
 
Numbers 21:5. And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.

This is the same verse that is referred to as fornication
in 1 Corinthians 10:8. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

What Moses called whoredom in Numbers is called fornication in 1 Corinthians 8

Adultery is what spouses do, whoredom is what daughters do according to Hosea 4:13,14
And you have even more verses leveling the accusation of whoredom. If anyone is debating whether or not anyone had ever been accused of whoredom then you sir have won that debate hands down. Yes, it is undeniably true that accusations or whoredom have been leveled. You won! Yay!
My question though is how does the Bible define the sin of whoredom?
 
Leviticus 19:29
Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore;

There’s a Biblical definition of a whore. How is that adultery?
 
I just looked up an interlinear Septuagint and found this.

Hosea 1:1 The word of the Lord which came to Osee the son of Beeri, in the days of Ozias, and Joatham, and Achaz, and Ezekias, kings of Juda, and in the days of Jeroboam son of Joas, king of Israel. 2 The beginning of the word of the Lord by Osee. And the Lord said to Osee, Go, take to thyself a wife of fornication, and children of fornication: for the land will surely go a-whoring in departing from the Lord.

When comparing it to the KJV.
Hosea 1:1,2 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.
The beginning of the word o f the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

The same porneia that is translated as fornication in the New Testament, is the same porneia that is translated as whoredom in the Old Testament by the 70 Jewish men who translated the Septuagint from Hebrew into Greek back in 272 BC.
 
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