Thank you, so we're right back at where we started. What is fornication?
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What is fornication?
- Thread starter The Revolting Man
- Start date
I think I’ve done more than my share to prove the connection with fornication/porneia. While you have done nothing to prove adultery.
What is fornication?
The word "they" in this verse are priests.
Leviticus 21:1
And the Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the priests, the sons of Aaron, and say to them, No one shall make himself unclean for the dead among his people,
Which implies that others can marry such a woman. Though one wonders why they would, but it does explain how Hosea could.And the Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the priests, the sons of Aaron, and say to them, No one shall make himself unclean for the dead among his people,
Thankfully Jesus forgives.
This is my earlier post from the King James, edited to reflect the Septuagint
Leviticus 19:29
Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be one who fornicates ; lest the land fall to fornication and the land become full of wickedness.
Leviticus 21:7. They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane;
Deuteronomy 22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to fornicate in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
Deuteronomy 23:17 &18. There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Numbers 21:5. And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit fornication with the daughters of Moab.
This is the same verse that is referred to as porneia in 1 Corinthians 10:8. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
Ezekiel 23:3 And they committed fornication in Egypt; they committed fornications in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.
Hosea 4:13, 14 They sacrifice upon the tops of the mountains, and burn incense upon the hills, under oaks and poplars and elms, because the shadow thereof is good: therefore your daughters shall commit fornication, and your spouses shall commit adultery.
I will not punish your daughters when they commit fornication, nor your spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves are separated with whores, and they sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall.
Please note. In each instance of fornication, porneia is either the word or its root. It is used for both fornication and adultery though there is always a distinction made between an ishshah (wife/woman) and a daughter of Israel. An ishshah is always a woman who is betrothed or married while a daughter is still unbetrothed and under her fathers covering. A virgin betrothed and still at home is referred to as the neighbors wife or Rea Ishshah, not a daughter.
In each of the verses above, the daughters who are fornicating are having sex before they are betrothed or married.
Leviticus 19:29
Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be one who fornicates ; lest the land fall to fornication and the land become full of wickedness.
Leviticus 21:7. They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane;
Deuteronomy 22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to fornicate in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
Deuteronomy 23:17 &18. There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Numbers 21:5. And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit fornication with the daughters of Moab.
This is the same verse that is referred to as porneia in 1 Corinthians 10:8. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
Ezekiel 23:3 And they committed fornication in Egypt; they committed fornications in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.
Hosea 4:13, 14 They sacrifice upon the tops of the mountains, and burn incense upon the hills, under oaks and poplars and elms, because the shadow thereof is good: therefore your daughters shall commit fornication, and your spouses shall commit adultery.
I will not punish your daughters when they commit fornication, nor your spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves are separated with whores, and they sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall.
Please note. In each instance of fornication, porneia is either the word or its root. It is used for both fornication and adultery though there is always a distinction made between an ishshah (wife/woman) and a daughter of Israel. An ishshah is always a woman who is betrothed or married while a daughter is still unbetrothed and under her fathers covering. A virgin betrothed and still at home is referred to as the neighbors wife or Rea Ishshah, not a daughter.
In each of the verses above, the daughters who are fornicating are having sex before they are betrothed or married.
Agreed. My point was more along the line that if sex alone begins marriage, there would not be a category for unmarried daughters who were whores/fornicators in their fathers house.
Here’s a good one, the rest of them were for the daughters, this one is for the priests, without regard to marital status apparently.
Leviticus 21:15 Neither shall he profane his seed among his people: for I the LORD do sanctify him.
Sounds to me like if you’re a priest, no sex outside of marriage.
Leviticus 21:15 Neither shall he profane his seed among his people: for I the LORD do sanctify him.
Sounds to me like if you’re a priest, no sex outside of marriage.
@Verifyveritas76 has established that it is possible to fornicate while unmarried. Therefore fornication is not limited to adultery. However, this does not mean that all sex outside of marriage is fornication, just that at least some is.
While @ZecAustin has presented a list of things that are fornication (being all sin forbidden in the Mosaic law), some of which can certainly be done while unmarried. For an extreme example, an unmarried woman sleeping with an animal is fornication.
So as yet neither of you has presented anything that technically disproves the statements of the other (although you may read them with different emphases).
I don't really know what the point being made about "what is fornication" is yet. There appear to be lot of emotions carried over from another recent discussion, and lots of verses thrown around, but you're talking past each other.
It might help to answer these questions just to see what each other really think, so as to focus the discussion:
Are these situations sin or not, are they "fornication", why (from scripture), and what is the consequence mandated by scripture?
While @ZecAustin has presented a list of things that are fornication (being all sin forbidden in the Mosaic law), some of which can certainly be done while unmarried. For an extreme example, an unmarried woman sleeping with an animal is fornication.
So as yet neither of you has presented anything that technically disproves the statements of the other (although you may read them with different emphases).
I don't really know what the point being made about "what is fornication" is yet. There appear to be lot of emotions carried over from another recent discussion, and lots of verses thrown around, but you're talking past each other.
It might help to answer these questions just to see what each other really think, so as to focus the discussion:
Are these situations sin or not, are they "fornication", why (from scripture), and what is the consequence mandated by scripture?
- Sex between man and virgin, available woman.
- Sex between man and promiscuous never married woman.
- Sex between man and paid prostitute
- Sex between man and temple prostitute
I don't think anyone has made a point about "sex alone" begins marriage. Rather that "sex alone" creates an obligation of marriage (exodus 22:16), and when that obligation is met no sin has occurred.
1Co 7:36
If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry—it is no sin.
I don't think anyone is arguing to permit whoring or whoredom, but rather that there is a proper response to sex with a marriage available woman.
The sin would be in not marrying her, but rather treating her like a whore by abandoning her.
1Co 7:36
If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry—it is no sin.
I don't think anyone is arguing to permit whoring or whoredom, but rather that there is a proper response to sex with a marriage available woman.
The sin would be in not marrying her, but rather treating her like a whore by abandoning her.
Exactly. Sex alone that is not covered = whoredom/fornication and the penalty for that is either stoning or burning . . . . Unless she can find someone else who is willing to cover her. (I’m not referring to sex for the record)
Such an interesting picture of redemption. It mirrors very much the way Christ redeems and covers us from our own "whoring" after other gods and idolatries.
Reminds me of James 5:19. Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
I’m not sure if this adds anything to the discussion but I wanted to put it out there.
My understanding of the definition of fornication is any forbidden sexual act regardless of marital status. So all adultery is fornication but not all fornication is adultery...
My understanding of the definition of fornication is any forbidden sexual act regardless of marital status. So all adultery is fornication but not all fornication is adultery...
1. Man having sex with available woman is not a sin as long as he marries her. Exodus 22:16 and the sex would not be the sin in the case of not marrying her. The neglect of his responsibility is the sin.
2. Man having sex with a slut who was never married. This one gets tricky I would say this is possibly the same status as number 1 but it depends on how you define it. If she has not turned away from that lifestyle and there is no chance of marriage then I think you are running afoul of Exodus 20:17 but again I don’t see this being specifically prohibited in scripture. So no it’s not a sin.
3. Man having sex with a hooker. Yes this is the sin of fornication it’s almost the most clearly defined form of fornication in all of scripture...
1 Corinthians 6:15-20
4. Man having sex with temple prostitute. Well many of the temple prostitutes were males so that one is obvious: Leviticus 18:22 and the female ones would be covered by number 3...
...but wait, who gets punished by his sin?
Alright, so unless I'm very confused it sounds like the there is some kind of agreement that fornication is not a specific sin but rather a reference to the totality of sexual sin. It's the broad category of prohibited sexual acts.
Is there any major dissent?
Is there any major dissent?
I think you’re correct. No argument from me.
The only quibble is wether or not defrauding would also be fornication it is the the refusal to engage in required sex... I used to think it was also fornication but I was challenged about that idea by Samuel and I’m unsure about it at this time...
Agreed.
I just have a minute to comment on @Pacman ’s comment on defrauding. As I understand it, unless there is an agreement to refrain from sex, or if she is not put away for cause (not divorce) defrauding in this scenario would equal breaking vows/covenant which is adultery.
If so, that would be the only fornication not involving sex specifically. There is no grounds for divorce here either according to Jesus or Moses.
...and especially in a system that does not prohibit multiple wives/women it's unnecessary to divorce. Women are individuals they might have medical, psychological, or spiritual issues. Even if a woman is in rebellion it's time to show grace and understanding. Even when it's difficult.
Yes, Paul said what he said, and that's the ideal. In life we rarely get the ideal all the time. It's then that we turn to God and His word to work through difficulties.
Remember with "the weaker vessel" to use patience, grace and self control.
Not the biblical definition we would apply discussing polygamy with any MOP. Adultery is the theft (or the taking) of another man's wife (woman). So I would have to disagree. Wether or not a vow or covenant isn't the issue. Adultery is a violation of stewardship which may exist without any formal vow or covenant.