• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

What is fornication?

I'd say that's a false equivalent. Instructions of something vs the law of what right and wrong are two different things. If you can find an instance of God's law changing then that's different. If God gives a particular individual instructions or individuals that's different vs changing the law that applies for everyone.
I just gave you multiple examples of God’s Law changing. You then laid out a really good case for how instructions can change, and then reverted back to the claim that instructions can’t change. You’re not being consistent. Sexual immorality has always been prohibited, but the definition of sexual immorality has gotten more explicit over time. Abraham could marry his half sister. After Sinai that was forbidden. You can’t act like that’s not in there.
 
I just gave you multiple examples of God’s Law changing. You then laid out a really good case for how instructions can change, and then reverted back to the claim that instructions can’t change. You’re not being consistent. Sexual immorality has always been prohibited, but the definition of sexual immorality has gotten more explicit over time. Abraham could marry his half sister. After Sinai that was forbidden. You can’t act like that’s not in there.
Another fine reason to realize that it is "INSTRUCTION" - not "law".
 
If I tell the children "from now on fruitcake is banned in this house", changing the law of my household, does that mean I have changed? Does that mean my children cannot know what is right and wrong and will be confused about how I expect them to behave?

You're taking this too far. Nobody is suggesting that God has ever made a drastic reversal in the law, "adultery was once a sin now it's ok". That's a straw-man argument.

But He has altered his instructions for his people over time. Adam was told to eat vegetables, Noah was told he could eat animals also, then the Israelites were told through Moses that they couldn't eat pork. Even if you assume that Noah was actually told not to eat pork also and it just wasn't written in scripture clearly (as most Torah-keepers will argue, insisting this law was permanent and reading it back into the preceding chapters as a result), it's very hard to see the change from Adam's vegetarian diet to Noah's omnivorous diet as anything other than a change in the law. But it's only a modification, not a reversal.
How is that a straw-man argument? you just said God can change His law if He wants to. It's one thing to give certain instructions to an individual or individuals than change the whole law. God can tell someone to go on a fast for a bit for a specific purpose but it wouldn't change the law of being able to eat meat. If it's to a specific person for a specific purpose then that's different than Paul basically say everyone can't sleep with prostitute it is forbidden now even though there was no law against it. I understand that vs changing a law for everywhere for mankind. My thing is if there's no consistency and the law is subject to change then I think we're in some serious trouble as it could change tommorrow and we not know it. Which I always believed that the Law was there before the world began.
 
Another fine reason to realize that it is "INSTRUCTION" - not "law".
Exactly they're arguing about instructions changing not law changing. As I said God can give specific instructions to a specific person ans to go against those would be sin theoretically
 
Any kidding aside: The underlying "Law" that He Created and thus knew, but only gave us some instruction about, may have to do with any number of things:

Genetics, degradation of the genome over time (after all, lifespans decreased dramatically) - and so on. It's not surprising that what was not a problem for a being like Adam no longer worked so well many generations later. (Maybe there was fallout from Sodom? :) )
 
So the instructions around prostitution changed? Are you okay with that?
Assuming that's what he was referring to commercial prostitution. There's evidence to show he could of been talking about temple prostitution which is explicitly forbidden in scripture. I would question why was it ok before but not now. Abraham marrying his half sister makes sense most likely because there was no1 else to repopulate the earth with. But the way Paul phrased it he made sound like this was already known NOT something that he just instructed. This is why I'm skeptical if he was referring to prostitution in general.
 
So the instructions around prostitution changed? Are you okay with that?

Just as there are different vowel pointings (and implications) for a word like "set apart" - there seem to be 'different kinds' of 'tzonot'. It does seem logical that 'temple whores' (male and female, it turns out) are a 'nastier' proposition that what Tamar may have impersonated. And they are a whole 'nuther layer of "set apart" for that reason.
 
BTW - this is a place (and I have NOT done the study...) where a comparison between the Greek and Hebrew renderings for the Torah (specifically) on variants of 'prostitution/whore/etc' might be enlightening. The Greek language almost certainly (given that it was a cultural aspect) does not carry the same implicit condemnation of 'temple prostitute' that the Hebrew MIGHT. (I am familiar, as I mentioned, with the "set apart" - qadosh, kedosha, etc - variants. Some are 'holy' - set apart to YHVH - others utterly 'tamim.' set apart to fake gods.)
 
So the instructions around prostitution changed? Are you okay with that?
There's also examples of
BTW - this is a place (and I have NOT done the study...) where a comparison between the Greek and Hebrew renderings for the Torah (specifically) on variants of 'prostitution/whore/etc' might be enlightening. The Greek language almost certainly (given that it was a cultural aspect) does not carry the same implicit condemnation of 'temple prostitute' that the Hebrew MIGHT. (I am familiar, as I mentioned, with the "set apart" - qadosh, kedosha, etc - variants. Some are 'holy' - set apart to YHVH - others utterly 'tamim.' set apart to fake gods.)
I've studied this a bit and read papers on the historical context of what was happening or could of been happening in that time frame I know temple prostitution did exist in that area. Some say it ended long before Paul's time but it's very possible there were still pagan festivals that had prostitutes who made money for pagan gods as temple prostitutes as well as feasts and forms of idolatry. As it would appear Paul seems to lump these three together in his letter. Though I could be wrong but if it's true it fit with scripture perfectly as sexual immortality in the old testament was associated with idolatry idol worship etc.
 
Assuming that's what he was referring to commercial prostitution. There's evidence to show he could have been talking about temple prostitution which is explicitly forbidden in scripture. I would question why was it ok before but not now. Abraham marrying his half sister makes sense most likely because there was no1 else to repopulate the earth with. But the way Paul phrased it he made sound like this was already known NOT something that he just instructed. This is why I'm skeptical if he was referring to prostitution in general.
You need to show some textual evidence that it’s about temple prostitution at all. That’s a distinction not in the text.
 
Just as there are different vowel pointings (and implications) for a word like "set apart" - there seem to be 'different kinds' of 'tzonot'. It does seem logical that 'temple whores' (male and female, it turns out) are a 'nastier' proposition that what Tamar may have impersonated. And they are a whole 'nuther layer of "set apart" for that reason.
But is it in the text?
 
How is that a straw-man argument? you just said God can change His law if He wants to.
He could theoretically reverse the law, he has the authority to, but he also has the authority to preserve it and that is what he has largely chosen to do. So it's a straw-man argument to say that people are claiming He has reversed the law (making grave sin acceptable), when nobody is claiming that.
Just as there are different vowel pointings (and implications) for a word like "set apart" - there seem to be 'different kinds' of 'tzonot'. It does seem logical that 'temple whores' (male and female, it turns out) are a 'nastier' proposition that what Tamar may have impersonated. And they are a whole 'nuther layer of "set apart" for that reason.
I agree, in theory they would be obviously even worse as they introduce the issue of idolatry on top of the issue of sexual immorality. So don't use prostitutes, and really really don't use temple prostitutes!
Then to say the law change is kind of an argument from silence since there's no evidence to say that it did change.
Are you now agreeing with me, as I've also said the law hasn't "changed" on this point?
 
I just gave you multiple examples of God’s Law changing. You then laid out a really good case for how instructions can change, and then reverted back to the claim that instructions can’t change. You’re not being consistent. Sexual immorality has always been prohibited, but the definition of sexual immorality has gotten more explicit over time. Abraham could marry his half sister. After Sinai that was forbidden. You can’t act like that’s not in there.
Plus to add on the Abraham thing. We have seen places in scripture were something was a law but an exception was made due to circumstances and Christ brings this up to pharisees when the priest weren't allowed to share bread but the exception was made due to the fact there was no other food available. We could easily lump Abraham in to this situation.
 
Back
Top