When seeking & developing a new relationship

[rockfox]

Slight tweak: Polygamy could be for everybody, but our culture is so far fallen that most people are not capable of even the rudimentary changes that would be required. It's not that polygamy is too high; it's that our culture is too low.

Do I misunderstand what you're saying? Because absent war, famine or plague polygamy won't be for everyone; it's mathematically impossible. And to pull this off takes a certain degree of leadership skill that the majority don't have. Most are followers, not leaders.

 

[Cap]

Do I misunderstand what you're saying? Because absent war, famine or plague polygamy won't be for everyone; it's mathematically impossible. And to pull this off takes a certain degree of leadership skill that the majority don't have. Most are followers, not leaders.

Salvation is for everyone, few choose it, in this life

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Slight tweak: Polygamy could be for everybody, but our culture is so far fallen that most people are not capable of even the rudimentary changes that would be required. It's not that polygamy is too high; it's that our culture is too low.

Oh, that’s deep

 

[Nikud]

Slight tweak: Polygamy could be for everybody, but our culture is so far fallen that most people are not capable of even the rudimentary changes that would be required. It's not that polygamy is too high; it's that our culture is too low.

I agree. As long as modern culture is stuck in an instant gratification self absorbed lets do things the easy way mind set Polygyny is out of reach for everyone as a whole. In a culture that pits false masculinity against false femininity and uses a worldly definition of leadership there's no way for Biblical Polygyny to have a place in it. As long as men refuse to lead biblically and women to follow biblically, Polygyny is unattainable. The idea that a man can not be a follower (servant) and a leader is a misconception of false masculinity. You have one side (a worldly side) of false masculinity that thinks they must dominate the world around them to be able to lead, and the other side (a misguided beleivers side) of it is that they have to be a subservient docile man to show the compasionate leadership skills of Yeshua. We must be servants of G-d first before Shepard of a family. Sometimes a servant must lead and take up arms to defend his master and sometimes a Shepard must tend the wounds of his flock.

There is a big difference from a leader and as Ron put it a bully. The sad thing is most bullies don't realise they're bullies and that they're on the world's side of false masculinity.

 

[rejoicinghandmaid]

I agree. As long as modern culture is stuck in an instant gratification self absorbed lets do things the easy way mind set Polygyny is out of reach for everyone as a whole. In a culture that pits false masculinity against false femininity and uses a worldly definition of leadership there's no way for Biblical Polygyny to have a place in it. As long as men refuse to lead biblically and women to follow biblically, Polygyny is unattainable. The idea that a man can not be a follower (servant) and a leader is a misconception of false masculinity. You have one side (a worldly side) of false masculinity that thinks they must dominate the world around them to be able to lead, and the other side (a misguided beleivers side) of it is that they have to be a subservient docile man to show the compasionate leadership skills of Yeshua. We must be servants of G-d first before Shepard of a family. Sometimes a servant must lead and take up arms to defend his master and sometimes a Shepard must tend the wounds of his flock.

There is a big difference from a leader and as Ron put it a bully. The sad thing is most bullies don't realise they're bullies and that they're on the world's side of false masculinity.

@ Kevin--soooo well laid out! I've often pondered the irony which exists in the believers walk as Yeshua designed for men and women to conform to His image. Our culture teaches and encourages men to Lord it over their women and brow beat them into submission. Yet the Adown must be wholly submitted to YHWH IF he is to shepherd those to whom he's been entrusted to lead. Our cultures teaches and encourages women to stand up for their rights, be in control of their own destiny, resist any form of masculine domination, etc. Yet the mother must be strong in her personal walk with YHWH to tend the tent when Adown is in the field or away at battle. As I've watched really successful, Godly men and women navigate this maze of leading, yielding, walking in the ways of Yeshua, I've seen a common theme. Strong men who are yielded to their Adown are excellent leaders and able to bring their flock along in pastures of life. Strong women who are yielded to the Adown of her tent are a valued part of his flock and considered indispenable in many ways.

 

[andrew]

Do I misunderstand what you're saying? Because absent war, famine or plague polygamy won't be for everyone; it's mathematically impossible. And to pull this off takes a certain degree of leadership skill that the majority don't have. Most are followers, not leaders.

Depends. Re your first sentence, I wasn't really talking about the math of polygny. Re your second and third, that's more what I was addressing.

Compare what Chris said in the rest of his post about all the nimrods out there doing it wrong. Sure, there are a lot of bozos out there, but that's the point: they're bozos, identifiable as such from their behavior.

Compare the obesity epidemic: Walking up one flight of stairs shouldn't be difficult for an average healthy adult. The fact that so many people these days can't even walk through Walmart to get their stuff but have to get a scooter doesn't mean that walking up stairs is actually hard, let alone reserved for the elite few; it means our culture is screwed up.

Last example: Read something somewhere some time ago (maybe National Review, but that's a SWAG) re lions, inviting the reader to consider that a mysterious plague had passed through an area and all the lions had lost their manes. In that context, would we then say that it was "normal" for male lions not to have manes? Or would we recognize that something outrageous and tragic had happened, and that all the lions were now 'abnormal'?

Does that help? My assertion is that having two wives or being a sister-wife should be seen not as some super-tricky or -difficult thing that only a few are capable of, but as the kind of thing all 'normal', 'healthy' adults should be able to do (whether they actually do it or not, which goes to the math issue). It's not like running a marathon as much as it is like running a mile without stopping, which a moderately healthy adult should be able to do . The fact that so many of us can't do it is on us....

 

[Joleneakamama]

Depends. Re your first sentence, I wasn't really talking about the math of polygny. Re your second and third, that's more what I was addressing.

Compare what Chris said in the rest of his post about all the nimrods out there doing it wrong. Sure, there are a lot of bozos out there, but that's the point: they're bozos, identifiable as such from their behavior.

Compare the obesity epidemic: Walking up one flight of stairs shouldn't be difficult for an average healthy adult. The fact that so many people these days can't even walk through Walmart to get their stuff but have to get a scooter doesn't mean that walking up stairs is actually hard, let alone reserved for the elite few; it means our culture is screwed up.

Last example: Read something somewhere some time ago (maybe National Review, but that's a SWAG) re lions, inviting the reader to consider that a mysterious plague had passed through an area and all the lions had lost their manes. In that context, would we then say that it was "normal" for male lions not to have manes? Or would we recognize that something outrageous and tragic had happened, and that all the lions were now 'abnormal'?

Does that help? My assertion is that having two wives or being a sister-wife should be seen not as some super-tricky or -difficult thing that only a few are capable of, but as the kind of thing all 'normal', 'healthy' adults should be able to do (whether they actually do it or not, which goes to the math issue). It's not like running a marathon as much as it is like running a mile without stopping, which a moderately healthy adult should be able to do . The fact that so many of us can't do it is on us....

I nominate that one for the best of the best thread. Encouraging to all wannabees and at the same time might make everyone rethink how hard it really should be. This is the best way I know to express sufficient amount of like.

 

[Curtis Gerhart]

To what Andrew and others about circumstances are different I fully agree, but several elements must be common or one will only reap havoc. First, the common thread must be real Love, just as in the Scripture. Without a true Love for the other person or persons, then nothing else really matters (Matthew 22:35-40, 1Corinthians 13, 1John 4, etc, etc). Second, and just as all others are hinged or derived from Real Love. If seeking a wife, remember, she is first your sister in Christ. As every wife is. You are your families pastor. You are placed as the head by God (Eph. 5). Third, everyone in the relationship must be “looking in the same direction.” Not necessarily seeing everything exactly the same, but the same direction. There are numerous other elements, as all these here can attest and will add, but it has been my experience that when the husband really Loves his wife scripturally and she is reciprocating this Love to him, then two things happen. The right woman will recognize this Love and crave to be joined to their Love or it will reveal the potential wife’s Love or selfishness narcissism. Simply put, Real Love cuts to the chase. When a family has real Love it greatly reveals selfish motives. Finally, if the potential wife has real Love as her top priority and the potential family seeks less than real Love, then that will be revealed too. i.e., money, property, physical attributes, etc, etc. Hope this helps.

 

[Moriah B.]

It's amazing how just a few weeks can change perspective. I remember reading some of the earlier posts down through July 5th, didn't respond to any of them one way or the other, and really had difficulty even comprehending the pros and cons being discussed at that time. I chalked it up to the fact that I'm still so new at this and on a pretty steep learning curve trying to understand so many new paradigmn shifts of thought. However, as I began to see the issues and hear the personal testimonies at retreat, tonight as I read everything from top to bottom in this thread, the topic is making so much more sense. Thank you so much to those who have shared their personal applications and thoughts.

Something that distresses me in establishing friendships myself and from listening to some retreat testimonies is the idea that when a potential doesn't end up joining the family, it seems there's a lot of hurt, heartache, and "friendship" that is just cut off or lost completely. When Cystrom shared his experience at retreat and explained why it abruptly ended after potential rejected his proposal, it was easy to see why that end was a best case scenario for him and his 1st wife. The potential had a Jezabel spirit and would probably have done everything possible to destroy the existing covenant if she had ever joined their family. So I get those sort of scenarios. Nevertheless, he spent months of effort and invested a lot to have it end in nothing.

For me, though, if I set out to establish a friendship with another lady, it is most importantly because I value her as a sister. If one takes BF out of the picture so that there isn't a man alongside of that same lady suggesting that a potential be approached, then for me, there is no difference as I seek a friendship with another sister. True friendship is a rare privilege in our society today. I don't approach it lightly whether inside of or outside of BF. What I'm hearing and reading in other threads is so sad that because a potential doesn't ultimately join a family, then a friendship is lost. Should it be that way? If a friendship is healthy, not self-serving, others oriented, and the friend is honestly loved and valued, then I would think wanting the very best for that person would be at the heart of any decision--to join a family, or in the best interests of all involved, not to join. True friendship doesn't say, "Be my friend so I can have ------.? OR " May I be your friend so I can --------?"

I do understand that in a BF setting, the husband may see a potential, whom neither he nor his wife have known previously and want both he and his wife to become friends with the potential in an effort to determine the Lord's will in the potential joining their home. As I've seen in some cases in BF, the wife already has a friend whom the husband comes to realize is a potential, and then he pursues a friendship with his wife's friend. Perhaps the husband has a friend whom he sees as a potential, but his wife has not met her yet, so the husband asks the wife to meet his friend whom he sees as a potential and asks the wife to build a friendship with his potential so that eventually they can become a family.

I also understand that not all friendships work out because on either side, one discovers there's not enough common ground to warrant pursuing investment in that particular person as a friend. This happens all the way through life and is not peculiar to BF. Ideally they should not part ways as enemies, especially if they are brother and sister in the Lord. Wanting the Lord's will for that other person's life--His very best--should trump the desired friendship once sought. Rejoicing that the Lord's will has been revealed, though it may involve disappointment for the moment, maintains an open door of fellowship among the body of believers. If each has respected the others, then seeing one another at BF retreats or other functions should still be possible without anxst.

For sure I'm speaking as a novice on this matter of friendships leading to a Biblical family setting. I'm painfully aware of this--that's why I'm posting and trying to understand and learn. Maybe I'm looking at this whole thing in a utopian or much too idealistic frame work for a practical, workable BF setting. Those of you who've navigated these waters, please help in this.

SouthernGrace72 said:
For me, I feel like I want to get to know them both at the same time. I would want to talk to with her and know her heart as well as his before moving forward in the relationship.

For me it isnt so much the new lady wanting only the husband as it is building the foundation of the household as one. You have the foundation for your relationship with the husband and you need one for the other wives as well, it is easier to build them all at one time than to build them individually. Then as individual couples and sisters you build the foundation for your family.

BeingHeld said:
I agree southerngrace. When a wife is left to the side and has to wait to build a friendship, it's hard because they have already built something and you have to find your place to fit. I feel if a lady is interested in your husband, that won't change. The longer youre kept from building the ladies relationship, the more apt sometimes the new lady will only want the man. But that's just my thoughts.

Southerngrace, I couldn't agree more. After all isn't it about family and the commitment to all involved? Yes, the husband with each wife has a covenant, but the family as a whole is what it's about to me.

MaryandJim said:
I agree with SouthernGrace and Beingheld. If the women of the house can't get along then family will suffer as a whole. Jim and I are new to the concept of PM but we think when Abba provides the second wife for him that we will build the relationship as a family.

As someone new in BF, I whole heartedly agree with all of these comments. The balance is off if both husband and wife are not seeking to establish the friendship with the potential. What I struggle with is if I have to lose a friendship with a sister because for some reason they don't feel like I would fit into their family, then why would I put time and effort into beginning the friendship. I really don't need my heart to be broken, and I certainly don't want to cause them to be hurt--brothers and sisters in the family of God are too special and valuable to want that for any of them. I also am so aware that to make oneself available for any sort of friendship with male or female, inside of or outside of BF, is to willingly become vulnerable and take the risk. So am I beating a dead horse?!?

I've read and heard enough comments of hurt, utter disappointment, or hesitancy to even look again for another BF family or potential that it has caused me to take spend much time in thought and prayer over this topic. There's so few of us embracing BF. If joining to family doesn't work and friendships are lost or severed, where does one go when there's nowhere else to go. Why would one ever want to try again? The idea of isolation to avoid being hurt or hurting someone else is almost to painful to bear also. At this point I almost feel like a blubbering fool and have rambled, but truly hope this group of caring people will respond with your thoughts and hope you can make sense out of what I've said.

I couldn't agree more. Being an utter newbie to this has me feeling like a fish out of water. Questions pop up into my head all the time, "what if my husband agrees with PM, and wants to find a second wife?" "What will our families think?" "Will we be shunned?" "How would it look with another woman in the house?" "What if she and I don't get along?"
I feel for me, I would really want to build a relationship with the other woman, because she would be a sister, and we will be spending a lot of time together in the home. I want to have a good relationship with her, and be able to function as a family unit. Now, I don't know what the future holds, as of right now, my husband doesn't even know I think PM is Biblical and that I would be willing to be in one. He may not be willing or want it. I don't know. All I can do is work on my heart (I'm not that good at sharing honestly) and pray YHWH leads my husband in the way that He wants him to go.

 

[Curtis Gerhart]

I can only suggest one thing. Put everything aside your thinking, questioning, and worrying about, and pursue Real Love. Study Love like it is your very sustenance. Well, because, if we as “people of the way” break it all down to what matters; it matters little if I fully understand all the mysteries, can speak the Word in the languages it was written, have many gifts, that we have profited so little without Real Love. Focus on Love and EVERYTHING will fit into its place . . . perfectly. Praying for you, in Love.

 

[FollowingHim]

I nominate that one for the best of the best thread. Encouraging to all wannabees and at the same time might make everyone rethink how hard it really should be. This is the best way I know to express sufficient amount of like.

Feel free to quote it here. That list of wisdom is a bit lean so far.

 

[rockfox]

Depends. Re your first sentence, I wasn't really talking about the math of polygny. Re your second and third, that's more what I was addressing.

Compare what Chris said in the rest of his post about all the nimrods out there doing it wrong. Sure, there are a lot of bozos out there, but that's the point: they're bozos, identifiable as such from their behavior.

Compare the obesity epidemic: Walking up one flight of stairs shouldn't be difficult for an average healthy adult. The fact that so many people these days can't even walk through Walmart to get their stuff but have to get a scooter doesn't mean that walking up stairs is actually hard, let alone reserved for the elite few; it means our culture is screwed up.

Last example: Read something somewhere some time ago (maybe National Review, but that's a SWAG) re lions, inviting the reader to consider that a mysterious plague had passed through an area and all the lions had lost their manes. In that context, would we then say that it was "normal" for male lions not to have manes? Or would we recognize that something outrageous and tragic had happened, and that all the lions were now 'abnormal'?

Does that help? My assertion is that having two wives or being a sister-wife should be seen not as some super-tricky or -difficult thing that only a few are capable of, but as the kind of thing all 'normal', 'healthy' adults should be able to do (whether they actually do it or not, which goes to the math issue). It's not like running a marathon as much as it is like running a mile without stopping, which a moderately healthy adult should be able to do . The fact that so many of us can't do it is on us....

I see what you're getting at.

There is a corollary to that. The difficulty we have making polygamy work is just a symptom of the difficulty we have making marriage to 1 wife work. 50% failure rate is no better than pure chance.

There is a funny thing about math, it explains a lot. IIRC, statistically speaking, if you have a 50% failure rate with 1 woman, the chance of 1 or both of them leaving you in a marriage with 2 wives is 75%. That makes it look harder, makes the failure rate look higher; but its just the root cause playing out.

 

[andrew]

Exactly. I usually frame it the other way: A mono guy has a 50% chance of keeping his relationship intact, with two wives its 25%, with it's 12.5%, etc. And that's before you get to the additional internal and external corrosive pressures on plural families.

This is why first wives in successful plural families unanimously say "plural marriage made my husband a better man and a better husband". It can be experienced as 'upping your game', but in fact it's just 'taking care of business' you should have been taking care of anyway, and all wives get the benefit of that.

Our culture is soft and flabby and heavy and weak spiritually and psychologically as well as physically. God is calling his people to get in shape. Wonder what he's getting us ready for....

 

[Joleneakamama]

This is why first wives in successful plural families unanimously say "plural marriage made my husband a better man and a better husband". It can be experienced as 'upping your game', but in fact it's just 'taking care of business' you should have been taking care of anyway, and all wives get the benefit of that.

I have heard this from first wives over the years, and may be part of why I have always been so positive about the idea of living it.
To be clear I am NOT at all unhappy with my hubby, or as an only wife....so don't anyone get the wrong idea!

Our culture is soft and flabby and heavy and weak spiritually and psychologically as well as physically. God is calling his people to get in shape. Wonder what he's getting us ready for....

Gog and Magog, coming soon to a city near you.....the final judgment of Mystery Babylon.....and the establishment of His kingdom after that?

One can hope!!

 

[Mojo]

Slight tweak: Polygamy could be for everybody, but our culture is so far fallen that most people are not capable of even the rudimentary changes that would be required. It's not that polygamy is too high; it's that our culture is too low.

Short, but sweet, and right on.

I do believe that if polygyny was built into the culture, it wouldn't be such a daunting proposition. Unfortunately, our society is so consumer driven that we find men having to always please the customers (women). If you were stuck in 1960 USSR, you walked up to the market, bought your plain wrap goods, and went home. It's just what you did. The store manager didn't have to worry about clean aisles, snappy background music, or even smiling! You were going to come back next week and do the same thing.

I'm not saying that men in polygynous marriages need to be lazy, but the fact that there are so many choices available to women, it makes the effort to keep and hold what he's got more difficult. He should love and serve his wives because it's commanded in scripture, but not because he feels like any of his brides might pack up and go. If society revered staying in a marriage as much as it did marriage celebrations, I don't think polygyny (or monogamy for that matter) would be so strenuous.

Am I simplifying it too much?

 

[frederick]

If society revered staying in a marriage as much as it did marriage celebrations, I don't think polygyny (or monogamy for that matter) would be so strenuous.

Totally agree. Society, it would appear, has geared up for marriage failure and has been successful in the outcome. Ever heard it said; Plan your work and work your plan? That's what we see has been so successfully worked.

 

[andrew]

And now for a word from our sponsors:

Insert commercial here for the documentary Divorce Corp., an eye-opening look at the divorce industry. There's a reason our culture has "geared up for marriage failure". (Hint: According to the film, more money (~$50B) flows through the 'family' law system than all other court systems combined.)

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

And now for a word from our sponsors:

Insert commercial here for the documentary Divorce Corp., an eye-opening look at the divorce industry. There's a reason our culture has "geared up for marriage failure". (Hint: According to the film, more money (~$50B) flows through the 'family' law system than all other court systems combined.)

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

For as much as I have contributed, you’d think they would send me a plaque or something

 

[rejoicinghandmaid]

For as much as I have contributed, you’d think they would send me a plaque or something

Ahhh-we're just VERY small fish in the very big pond! Be glad you've only paid at the box office and not the post office and the lawyer's office and the counselor's office, and the DHS office, the pharmacy office, and the local prison chaplain's office, and the --------whatever-else-office there is that goes along with this money train!
BTW--what would you want your plaque to say on it?!?--if'n you got one from this megamonster?

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Ahhh-we're just VERY small fish in the very big pond! Be glad you've only paid at the box office and not the post office and the lawyer's office and the counselor's office, and the DHS office, the pharmacy office, and the local prison chaplain's office, and the --------whatever-else-office there is that goes along with this money train!
BTW--what would you want your plaque to say on it?!?--if'n you got one from this megamonster?

I have seen that megamonster from the inside, and trust me, they owe me a plaque.