Why does the Husband Not Need Permission from his Wife?

[Maia]

What did I say that you disagree with, and why?

"Submission can be hard for a woman, but it’s absolutely required"

Based on that the only way to avoid submission is to not marry.

Also I would point out that boys get 51% of the DNA from the mother, 49% from the father. Where does a mothers submission come from? If she was raised submissive and it is essentially the software that makes her weak then you are in luck. If it is a genetic deposition that that leads to her submissive nature then a weak mother could potentially produce weak sons. Is that what you want?

 

[MelissaE]

It should be, but, for reasons, some will give a false report.

Misery loves company or if a man is rotten enough, a good report may be given so the first wife doesnt have to deal with the husband as much.

 

[FollowingHim]

Outright rape would be intolerable, but where does one draw the line?

The line is very clear when you are actually married. The difference between an act done in love and an act done in hurtful violence is undeniably clear when you know each other.

Husbands are strictly commanded in scripture to love their wives. Forcing their wife to have anal sex for instance, when she hates the thought of it, would not be loving. It would therefore be sin.

The Bible does not just command wives to submit to their husbands, but also commands husbands to love their wives. This is a perfect balance that prevents the common abuse that either party slips into.
- Although a wife must submit to her husband, the fact that he must love her limits what he can command her to do, and means you do not end up with abuse of wives.
- Although a husband must love his wife, the fact that he must not submit to her to demonstrate his love but must ultimately remain in charge means that you do not end up with a "henpecked" husband.

Problems in marriage arise when people get over-focussed on one side of this balance - submission or love - and neglect the other. There are certainly abusive men who are too focussed on submission, and weak men who are too focussed on love. There are also women who are too focussed on love & scared of authority to accept submission, and others too focussed on submission to stand up for themselves. Both man and woman must have balance in their perspectives - and you need to gain this balance.

 

[HomesteadWife]

It sounds like you are saying that marriage is only for the week? That seems like an odd stance to have.

"Submission can be hard for a woman, but it’s absolutely required"

Based on that the only way to avoid submission is to not marry.

Also I would point out that boys get 51% of the DNA from the mother, 49% from the father. Where does a mothers submission come from? If she was raised submissive and it is essentially the software that makes her weak then you are in luck. If it is a genetic deposition that that leads to her submissive nature then a weak mother could potentially produce weak sons. Is that what you want?

Biblically women are always to be under a headship covering and submissive. First to their father/male patriarch of the family and then that headship passes to the husband in marriage.

True biblical submission is not weakness. It actually takes an enormous amount of strength. After you have made your choice of husband, prayerfully and with great care, submitting to him is a consistent work in progress. By submitting to him you are submitting to God in the order established by God Himself. Being a helpmeet means that you use your gifts, talents, intelligence and abilities to support your husband and to help your family forward towards the family vision and goals he has formed.

Part of the consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve is that we now live in a fallen world. Women, with feminism and the subversion of the natural order by the enemy, have become convinced that submission is weakness and they must assert dominance over the men around them to be safe and maintain independence.

There is great joy and peace found in submission. You have to trust God that he will guide your husband in making decisions. And trust your husband that he will follow God's guudance to make the best decision. While being at peace that if your husband does make a mistake, as a human being that will happen, that Gods mercy will cover the situation and grant you and your family with protection and help you to the other side of this decision detour.

True biblical submission is NOT easy, and not 'natural' today because it is demonized and misunderstood. I grew up in a very Traditional Catholic family and I have come to realize how many feminist mindsets are present in church organizations. Nominally the father is the spiritual head of the household, but often it is the women driving the spiritual ship which leads to an enormous amount of conflict in roles and responsibilities.

 

[NBTX11]

"Submission can be hard for a woman, but it’s absolutely required"

Based on that the only way to avoid submission is to not marry.

Also I would point out that boys get 51% of the DNA from the mother, 49% from the father. Where does a mothers submission come from? If she was raised submissive and it is essentially the software that makes her weak then you are in luck. If it is a genetic deposition that that leads to her submissive nature then a weak mother could potentially produce weak sons. Is that what you want?

I’m not even sure what to make of this. I have an adult 25 year old son. He’s a powerful man, serving on a nuclear submarine in the Navy. He leads other men in combat system operations. My first wife is submissive so this is total nonsense.

Being submissive is not an act of weakness. It takes strength to do so, when the will is to be domineering and controlling.

We follow the Bible. We make mistakes. But we do try our best to be submissive (for the wives) and loving. I’m sorry you see that as weakness. I don’t. I call it wonderful and Godly.

 

[FollowingHim]

Problems in marriage arise when people get over-focussed on one side of this balance - submission or love - and neglect the other. There are certainly abusive men who are too focussed on submission, and weak men who are too focussed on love. There are also women who are too focussed on love & scared of authority to accept submission, and others too focussed on submission to stand up for themselves. Both man and woman must have balance in their perspectives - and you need to gain this balance.

Actually, the biggest problem is when people are focussed on what the other person is commanded to do rather than what they are commanded to do.

Men who focus on submission are in serious error, because it is WOMEN who are commanded to submit. Men don't need to be told to take charge, we naturally assume command, to a reasonably healthy level, provided this is not denied by others. So a man who is over-focussed on submission is at risk of becoming a totalitarian dictator - he is focussed on something that was not directed at him, because he did not need it to be directed at him. And he doesn't need to focus on this because it's a choice women need to make, and he cannot change their minds, he can only change himself.

Men are commanded to love their wives. This is what a man needs to reflect on, because it comes less naturally. And he needs to think "how can I do this", not make excuses for why he can't.

While women who focus on love, and are scared of submission, are in serious error, because it is MEN who are commanded to love. Women don't need to think about this much, it comes naturally to them. A woman who is not taught otherwise will naturally love her husband (seriously, it's true even in the extreme - women who are captured violently even end up falling in love with their captors, it's called Stockholm syndrome, that's not a good thing but it shows how deep this tendency is ingrained into the heart of a woman). Women who focus on "my man needs to love me and not force me to do things" have entirely the wrong focus, as they are focussing on what he needs to do, not what she needs to do. She cannot change him, she can only change herself.

Women are actually commanded to submit. This is what a woman needs to reflect on, because it comes less naturally and is difficult for her. As evidenced by the many posts by @Maia above, and other women previously, finding this difficult. But she needs to ponder "how can I accept and do this", not "how can I find excuses to avoid doing it".

Focus on what God says to you, not what God says to someone else.

 

[Earth_is-]

I do agree with the principle that if I marry a man that I consent to sex. I Outright rape would be intolerable, but where does one draw the line?

Once you two are married - you’ve become one flesh. Your body belongs to him, and his body belongs to you (not exclusively from the man's side). So the concept of rape doesn't really exist in a marriage. There are certain times when he is not allowed to have sexual relations with his wife (it would be sin). For example, during her monthly period and after she gives birth.

 

[FollowingHim]

Once you two are married - you’ve become one flesh. Your body belongs to him, and his body belongs to you (not exclusively from the man's side). So the concept of rape doesn't really exist in a marriage. There are certain times when he is not allowed to have sexual relations with his wife (it would be sin). For example, during her monthly period and after she gives birth.

In theory, this sounds simple and patriarchal. In practice, it's problematic. There are certainly ways a husband could force his wife into sex that would be unloving (and sinful), while also abusive (and unlawful). I understand the desire to not call this "rape" because of the legal connotations of that word - but to make this assertion too strongly comes across as a green light for abuse. Yes, a woman's body belongs to her husband - but that means he is to love and cherish it as he loves his own body. Not that he can abuse her at will.

I am not going to give a specific example because it would mean we end up debating a narrow case. I just want to make the overall point that in principle, there are things that when done in marriage the legal world would call "rape", and which we should also consider to be wrong. I'm sure you can imagine an example for yourself.

 

[paterfamilias]

I think even the idea that a first wife would need to give permission or even to be consulted stems largely from our monogamous cultural construct. Biblically, with Leviarite marriage, there is an expectation that some men will take additional wives. There are polygamous families throughout the Old Testament. This may not have been a cultural expectation, but happened often enough that it was not an anomaly.

I'll give an example which was presented to me recently which has shifted my understanding.

I know a Fundamentalist Mormon woman (I know many) who is a fairly young first wife. She told me that in her particular tradition's culture, that it's expected that a man marry additional wives. In their culture (and biblically), she is accepting and prepared for this. She would like to be in on as to who is to be added in and would like to develop a relationship ahead of time, however she is aware that if her husband just shows up with another wife, that she is to submit to the decision and has hope that her husband will consider all of the family in making his choice. She has generations of example to trust in this.

I was shocked until I realized that the idea of adding wives based on the will of a first wife is based in a monogamy only feminist leaning culture which is the anthesis of living Biblically.

If a first wife truly understands her place Biblically, although she may not like it, the decision isn't hers to make and she can be a helpmeet to her husband instead of in rebellion.

That said, as a second wife, I would be very hesitant to join a family in this culture if the first wife was not completely on board.

Not just not unusual but the genetic record also shows us that there have always been more moms than dads.

I like the attitude expressed by you Mormon friend who was a first wife. And agree that it is a significant measure of a man as to whether he would or would not consult with his wife in the process.
On a personal level I very much want my wife to be part of the process. She is very smart and sees things I don't, plus it seems key that the woman build that relationship at the same time a new potential wife builds her relationship with the husband.
The goal being a happy harmonious single family after all

 

[paterfamilias]

"Submission can be hard for a woman, but it’s absolutely required"

Based on that the only way to avoid submission is to not marry.

Also I would point out that boys get 51% of the DNA from the mother, 49% from the father. Where does a mothers submission come from? If she was raised submissive and it is essentially the software that makes her weak then you are in luck. If it is a genetic deposition that that leads to her submissive nature then a weak mother could potentially produce weak sons. Is that what you want?

Well yeah you get more from female regardless of your sex. Y is smaller than X.

Just my personal notion but I suspect that we have only scratched the surface of the equation.
Whether you want to talk about epigenetics ehich is all the rage currently or which genes are or are not expressed in a specific person regardless of their presence, I think that it is frequently not going to be as linear as who the majority of the material comes from. From what I remember though, which is admittedly not fresh, boys do express more of their patrilineal genes, no?

My own experience in life is seeing sons who look like a miniature carbon copy of their father or near identical to childhood photos of their dad.
Then there are personality traits in a son which will be identical to those in the father even if the son was not raised by the father. Not all the time obviously but it is fairly common.

In my own case I see traits and mannerisms in my son that he has not had the chance to learn from me. Enough so that the whole 'the epigenetics are strong in this one' joke is common in our family with a whole force is strong sort of vibe riffing off the star wars lines.
Know you are apparently more of a trekkie but I bet you get it.

By the same token, I see the same equation playing out with mothers and daughters.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I cannot claim to have been part of the military but that was told to me by someone I trust who considered it a huge problem in Afghanistan that many * Officers are not qualified to lead troops into combat. I guess the good ones keep up their proficiency.

I agree, but the risk is still there. Plus they are things that some woman would except simply because they have no skills to support themselves.

But yes, both sides should really vet the other.

American officers generally don’t “lead troops in combat” after the rank of Captain, and even then it’s usually not directly. One of the real strengths of our military is our NCOs and SNCOs, senior enlisted men who do much of the actual leadership under fire. A general under fire would step back and let those tasked with the actual fighting do their job.

 

[steve]

"Submission can be hard for a woman, but it’s absolutely required"

Based on that the only way to avoid submission is to not marry.

Agreed.
I suggest that you run, not walk, to the nearest exit.

 

[Maia]

I’m not even sure what to make of this. I have an adult 25 year old son. He’s a powerful man, serving on a nuclear submarine in the Navy. He leads other men in combat system operations. My first wife is submissive so this is total nonsense.

You did not read what I wrote with precision. I stated that it could be behavior based in which case there is no genetic component. You are in luck. Even if it is a genetic disposition that does not meant that a timid mother will produce timid sons, I used the words "could potentially," 49% of a sons DNA does come from the mother, plus you have gen expression and mutations and so on. I was very particular in how I wrote this.

 

[Maia]

Biblically women are always to be under a headship covering and submissive. First to their father/male patriarch of the family and then that headship passes to the husband in marriage.

My parents and even more so my mothers side of the family, expect my siblings, and myself, and our cousins etc. to be strong. Usually when we are mid 20s or so we get introduced to higherish positions within one of the family companies. We are expected to deal with unions, suppliers, banks, etc. If we show weakness we risk running the family companies against the wall. We are expected to go head to head with a supplier alpha male and not get ripped off.

At the same time if I yelled at my parents I would get slapped. So it is a mixture.

True biblical submission is not weakness. It actually takes an enormous amount of strength. After you have made your choice of husband, prayerfully and with great care, submitting to him is a consistent work in progress. By submitting to him you are submitting to God in the order established by God Himself. Being a helpmeet means that you use your gifts, talents, intelligence and abilities to support your husband and to help your family forward towards the family vision and goals he has formed.

My gifts and talents might not be typical female subjects. Most woman have a natural aptitude for languages. That is not the case with me. Oh, I know German and English since these are the languages I grew up with but my parents also insisted that i learn French and Latin. Those were the only subjects where I needed tutoring, and even then I barely passed. Now math and physics, those I loved. The great thing is you just need to know the structure, then I do not even need to learn for test that much, I can suck up most of what I need to learn just in class, it comes naturally.

Then again I wear my hair girlish with braids etc.

Part of the consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve is that we now live in a fallen world. Women, with feminism and the subversion of the natural order by the enemy, have become convinced that submission is weakness and they must assert dominance over the men around them to be safe and maintain independence.

Yeah, now that I have always had issues with. Are American children of today guilty of the crimes of slavery, sins of the past? I take responsibility for my actions, and expect to be punished for them. Being a whipping girl for transgressions that someone else did seems to go against what is fair.

There is great joy and peace found in submission. You have to trust God that he will guide your husband in making decisions. And trust your husband that he will follow God's guudance to make the best decision. While being at peace that if your husband does make a mistake, as a human being that will happen, that Gods mercy will cover the situation and grant you and your family with protection and help you to the other side of this decision detour.

True biblical submission is NOT easy, and not 'natural' today because it is demonized and misunderstood. I grew up in a very Traditional Catholic family and I have come to realize how many feminist mindsets are present in church organizations. Nominally the father is the spiritual head of the household, but often it is the women driving the spiritual ship which leads to an enormous amount of conflict in roles and responsibilities.

My family was also Catholic, were unhappy for a while. The child sex abuse scandal was the last straw for them, and we left. Saves taxes as well, since in Germany the Catholic Church and the Lutherin Church are the only two who are allowed to just take a cut of your income via taxes.

 

[Maia]

The line is very clear when you are actually married. The difference between an act done in love and an act done in hurtful violence is undeniably clear when you know each other.

Husbands are strictly commanded in scripture to love their wives. Forcing their wife to have anal sex for instance, when she hates the thought of it, would not be loving. It would therefore be sin.

The Bible does not just command wives to submit to their husbands, but also commands husbands to love their wives. This is a perfect balance that prevents the common abuse that either party slips into.
- Although a wife must submit to her husband, the fact that he must love her limits what he can command her to do, and means you do not end up with abuse of wives.
- Although a husband must love his wife, the fact that he must not submit to her to demonstrate his love but must ultimately remain in charge means that you do not end up with a "henpecked" husband.

Problems in marriage arise when people get over-focussed on one side of this balance - submission or love - and neglect the other. There are certainly abusive men who are too focussed on submission, and weak men who are too focussed on love. There are also women who are too focussed on love & scared of authority to accept submission, and others too focussed on submission to stand up for themselves. Both man and woman must have balance in their perspectives - and you need to gain this balance.

See you manged to write that without it coming across as insulting! Thank you and congratulations.

You mentioned the key word balance.

As I have stated there are areas where I would be more submissive, indeed might actually prefer it, since leading can be exhausting.

Like I have said sex is something where I think I can be expected to be submissive, although I am speaking without experience. I would not even base it on religion but just nature. If a man forces a part of his body into the body of the woman, then that is by nature dominating, I cannot argue against that. I have also observed stallions mounting mares on the field. I think I can accept that the husband would command me in that situation and he would be in control.

I also like cooking, and gardening, turning the garden into an explosion of colors.

In other areas I would need more freedom for my interest. I was never a girl who was into dolls. Boring. I preferred LEGO and Playmobil Knight sets. I never imagined to be a princess. I love Star Trek and imagined being in command of a star ship plunging into the stars.

 

[HomesteadWife]

Yeah, now that I have always had issues with. Are American children of today guilty of the crimes of slavery, sins of the past? I take responsibility for my actions, and expect to be punished for them. Being a whipping girl for transgressions that someone else did seems to go against what is fair.

To answer this specifically. No, I don't believe that we are responsible for the sins of the past, or that someone in our ancestor lineage committed. But I do believe that we have to deal with the consequences attached to the choices and sins of those who come before us. For example: A mother chooses to drink alcohol to excess and the child is born with fetal alcohol syndrome. Has the child done anything wrong? Is it fair? No, but that does not free them from the physical consequence of the mothers choice.

Every choice in a biblical perspective has positive/blessings or negative/curses consequences connected to them. Either you are acting in alignment with the will of God in your life or you have to deal with your negative choices not only affecting you but also your children and descendants. I believe that this applies to physical, spiritual, and emotional aspects of our lives.

 

[Maia]

To add to my reply from FollowingHim

I would say that an older husband would fit me more as a husband. I find the teenage boys around me to be juvenile and childish. Why respect them, when they have done nothing to earn my respect? Older men seem to be more dignified. Plus they might have more experience in handling me, especially if they already had wives. Some compromises would need to be found, some challenges would remain.

To answer this specifically. No, I don't believe that we are responsible for the sins of the past, or that someone in our ancestor lineage committed. But I do believe that we have to deal with the consequences attached to the choices and sins of those who come before us. For example: A mother chooses to drink alcohol to excess and the child is born with fetal alcohol syndrome. Has the child done anything wrong? Is it fair? No, but that does not free them from the physical consequence of the mothers choice.

Every choice in a biblical perspective has positive/blessings or negative/curses consequences connected to them. Either you are acting in alignment with the will of God in your life or you have to deal with your negative choices not only affecting you but also your children and descendants. I believe that this applies to physical, spiritual, and emotional aspects of our lives.

The comparison with the alcoholic is a good one.

 

[Earth_is-]

To add to my reply from FollowingHim

I would say that an older husband would fit me more as a husband. I find the teenage boys around me to be juvenile and childish. Why respect them, when they have done nothing to earn my respect? Older men seem to be more dignified. Plus they might have more experience in handling me, especially if they already had wives. Some compromises would need to be found, some challenges would remain.


The comparison with the alcoholic is a good one.

Most men that are in their 20’s are still boys imo. But the advantage men have is that they don’t have a ticking biological clock, and some age like wine; spiritually, financially, and physically.

If I had a daughter ready for marriage - I would more easily approve a man that has already established his house, and is in a good position to grow his household with additional wives. That way I can see the man’s fruit. Versus a man much closer to her age, because I know there’s going to be mountains to climb for the young lad. So I’d prefer giving my daughter away to someone that has shown he is already capable.

 

[Maia]

Most men that are in their 20’s are still boys imo. But the advantage men have is that they don’t have a ticking biological clock, and some age like wine; spiritually, financially, and physically.

If I had a daughter ready for marriage - I would more easily approve a man that has already established his house, and is in a good position to grow his household with additional wives. That way I can see the man’s fruit. Versus a man much closer to her age, because I know there’s going to be mountains to climb for the young lad. So I’d prefer giving my daughter away to someone that has shown he is already capable.

I do not disagree.

I personally find I get along well with them, ok obviously I know nothing of how one would be as a husband. Also, I am aware that I might have difficulties submitting to a man in areas where even I would agree I need to. I am afraid that an inexperienced boy in my age might just get absolutely frustrated if I do not obey in bed, and the end result might be ugly. An older man might handle me better, spank me if necessary, but nothing that would injure me. I suppose there are also downsides such as difference in interests, but that could also be the case with someone my age. In the end we can both have our own projects.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Genesis 16:1-3 isn't the bible?

I’m having difficulty seeing how Genesis 16:1-3 creates a law requiring a man to ask for his wife’s permission. Even Abraham, in the story here, didn’t ask for his wife’s permission. How then do we know that is what the author intended to convey?