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Why Jews don't say the sacred name of G-d & Maybe nobody should

I think what throws folks off is my tradition of writing G-d for "GOD" or L-rd for "LORD" which is just a tradition which if you've been tracking me the last day or so I'm starting to abandon while on these forums because I think the enemy used that in part to add to the confusion that clearly happened. Of course, if someone followed Keith's and my exchange (as moderators do), it would be very clear we were talking about the actual proper name of God that starts with the letter "Y".

Just to clarify for the purpose of dispelling untruths: when you first made your request, @IshChayil, I did not at all originally realize that you were referring to my much-earlier use of the name of G-d that starts with the letter 'Y.' I had no clue. You used 'G-d' in your request, so I entirely understood what you were requesting to refer to my having spelled out 'G-d' in my post. A couple days ago it began to dawn on me that you must be talking about something else, because you kept saying I wasn't getting the point (which I guess I wasn't), so I researched earlier pages of the thread on which our disagreement began and found where I had previously spelled out the 'Y' name (which I, by the way, do not consider blasphemous). Prior to that backwards research, though, I assumed we were just talking about the spelling of 'G-d.'

I do not have the same religious practices belief that you have about the speaking, writing or contemplation of the names of our F-th-r. In fact, my own beliefs on the matter are probably fairly diametrically opposed to yours, because I'm more likely to consider it disrespectful to not say H-s N-m- than to say it.

You are free to consider me to be overly sensitive. You are apparently also free to be overly sensitive yourself, as is demonstrated by your clear habit of engaging in ax-grinding, repetitive ad hominem attacks any time anyone challenges your belief that you are The Expert on Anything You Know Something About. I have attempted to make peace with you in private messages, but you have basically refused to let any of this go. It appears to me that you will belittle anyone who disagrees with you or even likes a post written by someone who disagrees with you. Your original request to me was written in a forum thread that was located in the Singles section of the Marriage and Family forum area, which contradicts statements you're making here that imply that you're only attempting to enforce your name-naming preferences within this or other threads started by you in the Messianic/Hebrew Roots area; your request was clearly a marker you put down in a completely different realm that everyone everywhere should tiptoe around your tulips.

You seem to want the freedom to 'request' adherence to your religious vision, but in recent days you have demonstrated a disturbing willingness to sink to the lowest common denominator in your efforts to punish people for challenging you -- as well as demonstrating that if anyone calls you on your written behavior you will state that that person is being overly sensitive. I have observed you on more than one recent occasion stoop to dragging out pieces of old and new private communications between you and others, information clearly shared with you in confidence, to display the other persons' comments publicly to make those individuals look bad. You seem comfortable with not just arguing with someone but with attempting to destroy them. Are opposing points of view that threatening to you? Do you have to eliminate opposition, even to the point of pretending that you're blocking people only because they are overly sensitive?

Lastly, . . .

If we had been in person, there would have been an even extra dynamic to my soft request including smiling, eye contact, and friendly openness in body language; perhaps the medium here adds an extra level of confusion.

Perhaps, but, given that you assert that you ran your request by your wives and they didn't have any problem with how you worded it (assuming they read the whole context), did you also run by them your decision to assert that a brother was feigning ignorance when he didn't know something you mistakenly believe everyone else knows? Did you run by your wives your decision to repeatedly refer to a brother whom one might think everyone knows is significantly your elder by the phrase, 'little brother?' Did your wives also think it was totally fine that, for the purposes of belittling a brother, you publicly revealed assertions he had made in the context of private messages between you and him?

I have my own request: please consider the actual distinction between a request and a demand. When a request is made and the requestee denies the request, the requestor will accept that denial. In other words: asked, answered, and that's it. When the requestee denies the request and then the requestor is unwilling to accept that denial -- when the requestor will not let up on the issue until the requestee complies -- then it's not truly a request; it was all along just a covert demand. I'm requesting that you acknowledge that you have already demonstrated that you can't simply accept denial of your 'request' that everyone adhere to your expectation that they follow your practice of not spelling out the names of our F-th-r. If you deny my request that you acknowledge this, as will most likely be the case, I will move on, because I'm willing for this to be my last set of words on this matter, and I recognize that none of us who are mere members of this community have any authority over one another. Will you be willing to move on?
 
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I was asking Keith because I thought we are simpatico and I'd put a lot of effort here writing up an article about it.
I'm constantly confused why there is this relatively new trend in the church to treat G-d's name in an normal way (like other names). It rarely happens on the forums here as we strive to respect each other's cultures.
For any reading this I meant in no way to shame brother Keith. I usually find his posts insightful and deep. I assumed he just hadn't read my post on this topic and I responded publicly so others who also haven't dipped into the Messianic/HR area also would see my request.

Also, my earlier picking on the "angular organ" translation he posted in no way reflects on Keith personally. I'm only picking on the translation though this may have influenced how he received my request on not taking the sacred name lightly.
I think most of you know I teach biblical Hebrew so I sometimes have a bone to pick with translations about bones :p (attempt at humor).
Thank you. I stand corrected @Keith Martin
 
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Hey Cap,
The verse you quote actually makes the point. Even G-d Himself when answering Moses does not say the sacred name; probably so Moses wouldn't pronounce it to the Israelites. He says "Ehyeh asher Ehyeh" does that sound like the 1 sacred name of G-d to you?
Funny how the folks who are mad at me liked your post, though Kevin, by now, should have known better. I thought he was studying Hebrew this last year...

For the answer to your other question; you've got some mistaken preconceptions please my initial post which deals with those issues.
Thanks,
 
I think if everyone just stopped talking about it, there wouldn't be an argument.
Or if folks wouldn't misrepresent what happened.
Like Verify's intentional dragging the Name in the mud just to be provocative in this forum AFTER the thread was already moved over here.

quite a nasty thing to do as recognized by others.

I know you don't see it this way; that's fine. But that's why it hasn't fizzled out so easily.
This post doesn't require a response Sam so you can let it fizzle out now; I'm not holding my breath for any retraction/apology from Verify so I'll stop writing about it now and it can fizzle out like you want.
 
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Hey Cap,
The verse you quote actually makes the point. Even G-d Himself when answering Moses does not say the sacred name; probably so Moses wouldn't pronounce it to the Israelites. He says "Ehyeh asher Ehyeh" does that sound like the 1 sacred name of G-d to you?

I don't get that. Moses asked what God wanted to be called and God told him. Probably since no human can actually say God's name, He just told him to say what Moses could say. If the vowels are missing, how does anyone really know. Maybe God was telling Moses, here use this name, it's the best you can do. Are you saying that God told Moses but then told him to keep it a secret?

It is my understanding that most if not all Hebrew names in the old and new testament are there to represent a purpose, why wouldn't God do the same.
 
I don't get that. Moses asked what God wanted to be called and God told him. Probably since no human can actually say God's name, He just told him to say what Moses could say. If the vowels are missing, how does anyone really know. Maybe God was telling Moses, here use this name, it's the best you can do. Are you saying that God told Moses but then told him to keep it a secret?

It is my understanding that most if not all Hebrew names in the old and new testament are there to represent a purpose, why wouldn't God do the same.
Hey Cap, as I spelled out, God's answer is NOT the tetragrammaton (the 4 letter name of God).
I don't really know what else to say in answer to your question than, "He did not pronounce His name to Moses and He did not ask Moses to tell the people".
Instead just like "Jah" in HalleluJah is given to us as a different form that points to the full name of God, so to He revealed Himself to Moses in a different name which points to the real name.

It is my understanding that most if not all Hebrew names in the old and new testament are there to represent a purpose, why wouldn't God do the same.
Just as "Jah" in HalleluJah is related to God's name, so is the form he gave Moses to say, meaning something like "I will be as I will be".
Good question :)
 
Hey Cap, as I spelled out, God's answer is NOT the tetragrammaton (the 4 letter name of God).
I don't really know what else to say in answer to your question than, "He did not pronounce His name to Moses and He did not ask Moses to tell the people".
Instead just like "Jah" in HalleluJah is given to us as a different form that points to the full name of God, so to He revealed Himself to Moses in a different name which points to the real name.


Just as "Jah" in HalleluJah is related to God's name, so is the form he gave Moses to say, meaning something like "I will be as I will be".
Good question :)

I'm actually kinda confused here, I don't really know what name is sacred that we can't talk about.
 
Why is anyone still fighting over this? Everything has been said that can be said. Ish thinks we should all show respect to the Name of God, a hard stance to argue against even if one quibbles with the details of the reasoning. Others think Ish is trying to bind them to false tradition. Fine. It's time to move on. Let it go. I am not in complete agreement with Ish on this but I have to say he's won this debate simply by taking on all comers and holding the high ground. He's the king of this hill. If you keep on he's going to get the moral high ground too. Let it go.
 
Hey Cap,
The verse you quote actually makes the point. Even G-d Himself when answering Moses does not say the sacred name; probably so Moses wouldn't pronounce it to the Israelites. He says "Ehyeh asher Ehyeh" does that sound like the 1 sacred name of G-d to you?
Funny how the folks who are mad at me liked your post, though Kevin, by now, should have known better. I thought he was studying Hebrew this last year...

For the answer to your other question; you've got some mistaken preconceptions please my initial post which deals with those issues.
Thanks,
He says His name in the next verse. If your saying He only said Yod Hey Vey Hey that's a good traditional Rabbinical interpretational belief which explains nothing. It just the four letters explain why you got upset with me before for writing the four letters when I was showing what the Text shows on a few instances.

I am well aware that vav can be a vowel And for some that hayah points to the sacred name. I'm also well aware that I am was used 3 times and of the 3 forms of I am.
I will be, I am, I was

Yihyeh
Hoveh
Hayah

In English it is Jove and in classical Latin it is spelled IOVE and pronounced as you guessed it the name with a w in the middle. For Jupiter.

Many for get that in most of Europe until the end of the renaissance the J made a Y sound and the v made a w and sometimes a u sound in Latin languages.

I'm also aware of those trying to put an ua instead of a v.

waw vs vav

The Israel Institute of Biblical Studies holds the opinion that it's a vav not a waw. From the correspondence they say that the translations you provide are very precise to technical modern Hebrew interpretation of biblical Hebrew, almost textbook. So, kudos. I check your work, my work and any body else who post. Your an intelligent man. Your Hebrew is better than mine, I've pointed that out more than once.

Don't pretend now that you weren't treating the word God as Holy and as His name. We all know better. G-D why then? A quick Google search and they would find Chabad.org and know that there's a tradition to do so, without anyone explaining it to them.

I should know better comment. I would be far more along if I hadn't been distracted by the Talmud, but if it makes you feel better about yourself to try to belittle me go ahead. I could always just pick up the textbook and quote straight from it making a textbook interpretation.

The Fiddler on the roof statement, that's not me. Why did you say I said that? Me a goy. If you say so.

Just so we're clear were I stand on tradition and a few other things:

I love Hebrew culture, but I'm not keen on rabbinical tradition any more. There is a difference. I've read too much to think it's just tradition. I understand Takkanot. I WAS distracted from studying Torah in pursuit of the Talmud, encouraged by you. The good thing is I know the difference now between Torah and tradition of The Rabbis taught as Torah, the word of God. I also now know the dangers of where Rabbinical practices can lead and thank you for that.

"The Talmud [Bava Metzia 59b] records a conflict between the Sages and Rabbi Eliezer (the “cemented cistern who never loses a drop,” according to Ethics of the Fathers) over whether or not a particular type of oven is subject to ritual impurity. Rabbi Eliezer brings three miracles to support his case, culminating in a “Divine voice” which exclaims: “What do you want from My son, Rabbi Eliezer? The Law is always in accordance with his view.”

Nevertheless, the Sages stand their ground. They argued that when Moses said the Torah “is not in heaven” [Deuteronomy 30:12], he meant it had been given to the scholars here on earth to interpret. The Oral Law is determined by majority rule; hence, the Sages can overrule not only Rabbi Eliezer but even God Himself!

The Talmud goes on to record Elijah the Prophet’s report of God’s reaction: “The Almighty laughed and said, ‘My children have defeated Me, My children have eternalized Me,” (the Hebrew nitzhuni can mean both things).


This controversy must have had great significance. It took place after the destruction of the Second Temple, when the Sages were reconstituting Judaism from a religion centered on sacrifice to one based around the home and the synagogue.

Rabbi Eliezer believed halachic change could only take place if there was precedent within the tradition itself. So he never stated a law that he had not heard from his teacher [B.T. Succa 37].

The majority of the scholars disagreed. They believed that with the thirteen principles of hermeneutic logic communicated by God to Moses, they could plumb the depths of the Bible, explicating even the crowns on each letter, to interpret and apply the Law.

Seeing that Rabbi Eliezer was not budging, these sages placed a ban (cherem) on him and sent Rabbi Akiva, his disciple, to inform Eliezer.

Hearing of the ban, Rabbi Eliezer cried out to God, and Rabban Gamliel, the head of the delegitimizing Sanhedrin, died immediately as punishment. This Talmudic passage closes with the words: “After the destruction of the Temple, all gates to God are closed except the claim of unfair treatment."

I understand better than some what Paul meant about falling back into bondage. I was once in bondage to Romani tradition I was set free. I was once in bondage to Greco-Roman Christianity's tradition I was set free. Only to allow myself to fall into bondage to Rabbinical Judaism's tradition. Once again I was set free. I am a pushrat. It is used to mean one of mixed heritage but literally means one who is nothing. I am not Romani nor Gadje/Giorgio. I am not a Jew nor goyim. I am nothing but a servant of Yeshua HaMassiach. Follower of His Way. He is the way (salvation, nobody enters except through Him), the entrance into the Tabernacle. He is the Truth, Torah made flesh, the entrance way to the Sanctuary where only His Priest who are circumcised in the heart and flesh may enter (Faith in Yeshua and Torah Observance, Ezekiel 44). He is the life, the entrance to the Holy of Holies, where only our High Priest Yeshua (or those with the Ruach HaKodesh, His Spirit) may enter and see the Father. There's no room for this world's traditions only His way. If tradition is pushed as righteousness or as instruction on How to walk, I will push back.
 
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The Fiddler on the roof statement, that's not me. Why did you say I said that? Me a goy. If you say so.....
Sorry Kev. I just cant process your long ass posts brother. I don't follow your connections.
I'd just recommend you go study Hebrew some more, get to where you can understand it.
Then learn the Masorah so you can read when the Name of God is what's actually in the scripture and when it's not His name.
Assuming its always His name just because it has the four letters written out is a rookie mistake. The fiddler on the roof thing was directed at Keith . How often I hear from Christians over the years how they love Jewish stuff and then I get an asinine Fiddler on the Roof example then when a Jew asks them to observe one cultural sensitivity they fly off the handle. When you flip-flopped your position [re: standard Messianic position of not using the sacred name in profane i.e. normal speech] and piled on I may have sleepily wrote "Kevin" instead of "Keith" if so that's my bad.

******* the other of many varying topics you addressed in this single post*****
Hope you don't mind I'm not going to seriously engage in the waw being a v in ancient times. There's just no scholars who think this. It's the same in ALL these related languages. I'm not sure how to put this but i don't think your beginning level of Hebrew and no other Semitic languages really equips you to linguistically evaluate this issue. I've been teaching Classical Hebrew for almost 2 and a half decades from newbies in synagogue to Graduate studies at University. So... I'm just gonna boil this down in layman's terms, you make a "w" sound with your lips. The same shape also makes "U' and "O' not 'V'. For V we had veit. Maybe that can help you with the ubsurdity of the "O - U- V" being the ancient pronounciation. That's about as simple as I can make it. If you like the European way of saying it as "V" go for it. I'm on low sleep now so I hope you don't take this as me pounding my chest about Hebrew knowledge, but you could learn a thing or two if you listen to me as a big bro in this one area (Biblical Hebrew Language). Regarding the website you listed, I have no doubt they teach to pronounce this as a 'v' since most biblical Hebrew programs do not aim for classical pronunciation but teach instead modern Israeli pronunciation.
*******
I won't engage in your other topics. Too much for me to handle in a single post (not a slam - this time :)
I understand you are a man of great passion; I've respected how you can pour many hours into study in a short time not even needing to sleep.

Sorry for any offense I may have caused; you kind of blind-sided me with your recent theological changes and you didn't inform me them in our private communications, I had to read them when everyone was piling on. I guess I thought when you made me an honorary member of the Romani clan that meant a little more than it seems to mean and I'd learn of such things as dislike of Talmud in our PMs not in a heated public exchange. Probably my fault for assuming too much.
Peace, and I wish you all success in your further studies.
(please read this in the friendly tone I intend; meatspace is so much better than this medium).
 
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Thank you. I stand corrected @Keith Martin
Seems I also go them confused throughout the posts so, here's to me needing to remove the beam from my own eye before correcting you Mojo regarding Keith or Kevin...
 
...And for some that hayah points to the sacred name. I'm also well aware that I am was used 3 times and of the 3 forms of I am.
I will be, I am, I was
Yihyeh
Hoveh
Hayah
Yes, that is correct, as I said we have many stand-ins that "point to the scared name".
God Himself did not even use His sacred name when telling Moses what to tell the people His name was. He used a form of the verb on which His name is based, to merely point to the sacred name. Perhaps He did not want it uttered in wretched Egypt before His shekhinah came fully in. This certainly falls in line with speaking His name in the temple...

One correction, not HOveh but Howeh (in Ancient Hebrew) thought Hoveh in modern/Europeanized Hebrew.
 
Yes, that is correct, as I said we have many stand-ins that "point to the scared name".
God Himself did not even use His sacred name when telling Moses what to tell the people His name was. He used a form of the verb on which His name is based, to merely point to the sacred name. Perhaps He did not want it uttered in wretched Egypt before His shekhinah came fully in. This certainly falls in line with speaking His name in the temple...

One correction, not HOveh but Howeh (in Ancient Hebrew) thought Hoveh in modern/Europeanized Hebrew.

If even God didn't use His real name than how does anyone know not to use His name He didn't provide? This doesn't make sense at all. Who has figured out what God's real name is?
 
...
******* the other of many varying topics you addressed in this single post*****
Hope you don't mind I'm not going to seriously engage in the waw being a v in ancient times. There's just no scholars who think this. It's the same in ALL these related languages. I'm not sure how to put this but i don't think your beginning level of Hebrew and no other Semitic languages really equips you to linguistically evaluate this issue. I've been teaching Classical Hebrew for almost 2 and a half decades from newbies in synagogue to Graduate studies at University. So... I'm just gonna boil this down in layman's terms, you make a "w" sound with your lips. The same shape also makes "U' and "O' not 'V'. For V we had veit. Maybe that can help you with the ubsurdity of the "O - U- V" being the ancient pronounciation. That's about as simple as I can make it. If you like the European way of saying it as "V" go for it. I'm on low sleep now so I hope you don't take this as me pounding my chest about Hebrew knowledge, but you could learn a thing or two if you listen to me as a big bro in this one area (Biblical Hebrew Language). Regarding the website you listed, I have no doubt they teach to pronounce this as a 'v' since most biblical Hebrew programs do not aim for classical pronunciation but teach instead modern Israeli pronunciation.
....
@Kevin so I was thinking about it and I realized I'd made the great logical fallacy of "appeal to authority" even if that authority is myself.
So to be fair. I'm not familiar with the website you listed and they don't have the information about vav aka waw ו posted out in the open. So, I'm going to refer to some of the books and scholarly journal articles which I do own as that at least can demonstrate that I care to answer you in a manner in which you deserve.
Here are some references which refer to ו by its classical 'w' pronunciation. I've included pages in my references as well. To make this brief I'm listing a single quotation followed by the full reference material. I have bought and paid for all of these materials I'm referencing and I have the rights to quote them in small portions. I'm making the reference sections in Gray (or Grey for @FollowingHim ;) I've made references ו to the as waw in bold but other than that I have not changed the quotations. I can provide a slew of more references from scholarly articles and journals if you need it; I hope for now this will suffice to demonstrate that in the scholarly world it is accepted that this letter was waw in ancient times.
*******************************************
“The classical name of vav is a waw.”
Futato, M. D. (2003). Beginning Biblical Hebrew (p. 163). Winona Lake, IN: Eisenbrauns.

For example, the presence of the cue phrase אִם ‘if’ implies that one of the two subsequent וְ-segments is likely a “waw of apodosis.”27 But the phrase marker shown does not indicate which וְ is the “waw of apodosis.”
Andersen, F. I., & Forbes, A. D. (2012). Biblical Hebrew Grammar Visualized. (M. O’Connor, C. L. Miller-Naudé, & J. A. Naudé, Eds.) (p. 319). Winona Lake, IN: Eisenbrauns.

“One sequence consists of a string of imperative forms of the type לֵך אֶמֹר. Sometimes the imperatives are connected by the conjunction waw…”
A. Hurvitz (Ed.), Biblical Hebrew in Its Northwest Semitic Setting: Typological and Historical Perspectives (p. 51). Jerusalem; Winona Lake, IN: The Hebrew University Magnes Press; Eisenbrauns.

“Joins clauses in which the content of the clause with וְ describes more fully the content of the preceding one (the so-called epexegetical waw)”
Van der Merwe, C., Naudé, J., Kroeze, J., Van der Merwe, C., Naudé, J., & Kroeze, J. (1999). A Biblical Hebrew Reference Grammar (p. 300). Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press.

"Under the heading archaisms come not lexical items so much (see already criterion 3, unusual vocabulary) as grammatical elements. These would include enclitic mem, vocative lamedh, emphatic waw and like, but particularly, use of yiqtol for the past tense."
Watson, W. G. E. (1986). Classical Hebrew Poetry: A Guide to Its Techniques (Vol. 26, p. 49). Sheffield: JSOT Press.

"These are the components essential for a theory of language change and diffusion, of which some will be illustrated in §4 with data on the waw-consecutive and distribution of the independent personal pronouns in Biblical and Qumran Hebrew."
Naudé, J. A. (2012). Diachrony in Biblical Hebrew and a Theory of Language Change and Diffusion. In C. L. Miller-Naudé & Z. Zevit (Eds.), Diachrony in Biblical Hebrew (p. 75). Winona Lake, IN: Eisenbrauns.

"The extreme simplicity of Hebrew narrative has often been pointed out: the principle of attaching clause to clause by means of the “waw conversive” construction allows the narrative to flow on often for long periods uninterrupted, and, so to speak, in one continuous straight line."
Gray, G. B. (1915). The Forms of Hebrew Poetry: Considered with Special Reference to the Criticism and Interpretation of the Old Testament (p. 52). London; New York; Toronto: Hodder and Stoughton.

"The tendency to retract the tone from the final syllable is even stronger after wāw consec. than in the jussive."
Gesenius, F. W. (1910). Gesenius’ Hebrew grammar. (E. Kautzsch & S. A. E. Cowley, Eds.) (2d English ed., p. 133). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

A Waw preceding a finite verbal form (qatal, yiqtol, jussive, cohortative, imperative) may have various semantic values; consequently a group consisting of Waw and of a verbal form will have different values
Joüon, P., & Muraoka, T. (2003). A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew (Vol. 2, p. 379). Pontificio Istituto Biblico.

"An imperative linked to a preceding volitional form by waw can be telic, expressing purpose or result."
Putnam, F. C. (2002). Hebrew Bible Insert: A Student’s Guide to the Syntax of Biblical Hebrew (p. 34). Quakertown, PA: Stylus Publishing.

"The variety of terms used for the conjugations gives a hint of the controversy that has surrounded modern study of them. At the heart of the controversy is the fact that conjugations have a variety of syntactic roles, related in part to the use of the conjunction waw."
Waltke, B. K., & O’Connor, M. P. (1990). An introduction to biblical Hebrew syntax (pp. 455–456). Winona Lake, IN: Eisenbrauns.

[Text shows the letter ו (vav, aka waw)…]
“as in verse (originally this letter was pronounced as /w/ and will be spelled as waw in future chapters.)
Kutz, K. V., & Josberger, R. L. (2018). Learning Biblical Hebrew: Reading for Comprehension: An Introductory Grammar (p. 4). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

"On the pleonastic waw see P. Wernberg-Møller in JSS 3 (1958) 321–326, and L. Prijs in Biblische Zeitschrift 8 (1964) 104–109. On II Sam. 3:38, kî śar wegādôl nāpal, 'For a truly great prince has fallen', see M. Dahood in Gregorianum (1962)"
Dahood, M., J. (1989). Ugaritic-Hebrew philology: marginal notes on recent publications (p. 40). Rome: Biblical Institute Press.

"The use of the four main verb forms (qatal or perfect, yiqtol or imperfect, weqatal or perfect with consecutive waw, and wayyiqtol or imperfect with consecutive waw) in these parallel sequences represents 291 cases, i.e. the 66.59% of the total number of clauses in parallelism."
Del Barco, F. J. (2003). Syntactic Structures of Parallelism: A Case Study in Biblical Prophecy. Journal of Northwest Semitic Languages, Volume 29, 2003, 29(1), 39.

"It should be noted that the Qumran version has a dividing waw between priests and Levites, and between Levites and sons of Sadoq:17 הכהנים והלוים ובני צדוק"
Lust, J. (1994). The Diverse Text Forms of Jeremiah and History Writing with Jer 33 as a Test Case. Journal of Northwest Semitic Languages, 20(1), 41.

"In addition to the coordinate waw construction, BH also has a consecutive waw construction."
Naudé, J. A. (1994). The Asymmetry of Subject Pronouns and Subject Nouns in Qumran Hebrew and Cognates. Journal of Northwest Semitic Languages, 20(1), 157.

“Es ist in V. 16 nicht notwendig, mit LXX, 1 Chr 15,29 und 4QSama והיה in ויהי zu ändern. Nach Vanoni 1982:83 ist והיה mit ועתה gleichzusetzen. Ähnlich auch de Boer 1991:145: “Perfect mit waw...“
Zwickel, W. (1994). DAVID: HISTORISCHE GESTALT UND IDEALISIERTES VORBILD. ÜBERLEGUNGEN ZU ENTSTEHUNG UND THEOLOGIE VON 2 SAM 6. Journal of Northwest Semitic Languages, 20(1), 107.

[text indicates that ו represents phonetic w]
A Practical Grammar for Classical Hebrew, Jacob Weingreen, Oxford Press (I loaned this out so you’ll forgive my inability to quote a page reference. It’s near the beginning of the book when the alphabet is introduced).

Note: for others such as @Verifyveritas76 who misinterpret transliterations such as ADOWN to mean there was a 'w' in the actual pronunciation, it should be understood that the transliteration methods which list a Waw functioning as a vowel do so for transcription means only, that is to make clear the letter is present and not it's defective cholem cousin. Words like "master" are most certainly pronounced "Adon" with a long 'o' there is no 'w' consonant sound present. The waw either functioned as a hard "w" sound, or as a vowel sound "o" or "u".
Shalom
 
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If even God didn't use His real name than how does anyone know not to use His name He didn't provide? This doesn't make sense at all. Who has figured out what God's real name is?
Nobody is saying that brother. Reread and think about it for a while...
I'm only saying that His name is NOT "Ehyeh" = "I will be"
 
Nobody is saying that brother. Reread and think about it for a while...
I'm only saying that His name is NOT "Ehyeh" = "I will be"

Ok, the title of this thread is "Why Jews don't say the sacred name of G-d & Maybe nobody should", What is the sacred name we are not, or at least Jews, are not suppose to say? Do you know it? And if the claim is that God Himself didn't use it, how would anyone really know what it is?

I may not have the knowledge you may have about your traditions but I also am not as confused as you regularly seem to imply to others.

(please read this in the friendly tone I intend; meatspace is so much better than this medium).
 
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He is the Truth, Torah made flesh, the entrance way to the Sanctuary where only His Priest who are circumcised in the heart and flesh may enter (Faith in Yeshua and Torah Observance, Ezekiel 44). He is the life, the entrance to the Holy of Holies, where only our High Priest Yeshua (or those with the Ruach HaKodesh, His Spirit) may enter and see the Father. There's no room for this world's traditions only His way. If tradition is pushed as righteousness or as instruction on How to walk, I will push back.
Amen to much of that; but Paul reminds us that it is ANYONE who confesses and believes that Yeshua died for our sins and that God raised Him from the dead, "shall be saved".
There is no mention of Torah observance to enter the New Jerusalem. All who believe will be in the world to come, even those who do not keep the Torah.

I understand better than some what Paul meant about falling back into bondage. I was once in bondage to Romani tradition I was set free. I was once in bondage to Greco-Roman Christianity's tradition I was set free. Only to allow myself to fall into bondage to Rabbinical Judaism's tradition. Once again I was set free. I am a pushrat. It is used to mean one of mixed heritage but literally means one who is nothing. I am not Romani nor Gadje/Giorgio. I am not a Jew nor goyim. I am nothing but a servant of Yeshua HaMassiach. Follower of His Way. He is the way (salvation, nobody enters except through Him), the entrance into the Tabernacle.

I wonder why the Jerusalem council thought that Paul "keeps the Law AND the traditions..." ? That's a present tense "keeps". So certainly this is not the bondage of which Paul was concerned to "fall back" into as he never stopped it.
All of scripture must be true, not just what we find fanciful or convenient to club a particular perspective over the head with at the moment. We know that Paul kept keeping the traditions.
I'm not so sure how you were in bondage to Jewish traditions these past several months that you were exploring the English talmud when your own rabbi did not keep them (the traditions).
I myself on numerous occasions thought you were going too far but I assumed you simply enjoyed them. Is it possible Kevin that you are a personality that always goes ALL-IN when trying something new?
That's a highly admirable trait but I must confess that as you quote portions of the Talmud you seem to be quoting it in a way that one who was unfamiliar with it would do so.
What I mean is that, NOBODY considers everything in the Talmud to be correct, true, etc. It is full of contradictions and that's it's beauty in part.
Lively debate and made up stories fill its pages, just like our savior often made up stories in true Rabbinical fashion to prove a point.
I wonder if you'd be willing to level the same level of judgement against Yeshua's stories as he tells them in full-fledged Rabbinical tradition? The fact that you seem to think Jews would ever claim the famous dispute (with the walls closing in and voice from heaven etc.) you mentioned would ever really think this tale actually happened; shows me that you did not have a chavruta as you studied (Talmud is to be studied with a partner who argues with you about EVERY PAGE).

I don't think anyone thought that [the story was meant to be thought of as real] except perhaps you when you discovered this very famous story. The midrash exists here only to make the point of how God expects us to interpret and wrestle with His text and that often He will not answer our direct questions as we must act as imagers of God filling that office.
You have profoundly misunderstood the text and its nature brother.
Talmud is not bible and a tractate is not allowed to be on top of the Torah, but the Torah is allowed to rest on top of a tractate of Talmud. It is full of disagreements, arguments, and the minority case is always presented so that the students can learn to question everything. maybe this is part of the reason that 24% of Nobel prize winners are Jews [while not even comprising a single 1% of humanity]. The practice of Talmudic questioning inculcated through the generations?
The process by which God has made us very clearly the "head and not the tail" is certainly tied to the culture which He used to maintain His people through the past eons.

I commend you, for at least venturing in to the "sea of Talmud" as it is called. Personally, I mostly enjoy the midrashes (pretend stories) as they are captured in the Talmud and elsewhere. My congregants often find them illuminating and at times they even solve halachik problems.
The Talmud is not something that a single human could like everything found within. The Rabbi who says that "anyone who pronounces the name of God as it is written in the Masorah has no share in the world to come" certainly rubs even me wrong (and you know how deeply I care about sanctifying His name). Now if I just listed that quote from the Talmud, others who have never forayed into its depths will have an unfair picture of what the Talmud is all about. If they are unaware that it preserves even a minority opinion (in this case the sages do not believe that saying God's name prevents eternal life), or if I did not explain to them the use of midrash (parables in Jesus speak) to tell stories, well it does not do justice to the genius of the corpus of literature that is the Talmud.
Many Christians have found great wisdom in its pages but others do not understand how it works so it's disingenuous to present some of its more fanciful stories as a de facto representation of what is going on in those tomes.

I would humbly suggest that instead of going through life in a rush attempting to rapidly adopt other cultures only to whole-heartadly reject them, you could integrate what was good that you found. Yes, in these forums you'll have no lack of support should you decide to bash Jewish culture, but surely there is something good from it and Romani culture which you have integrated into your life? Surely there are some correct Torah practices/Jewish traditions which you have found in your studies this past year? How about at least the Jewish dedication to study of Torah? Perhaps you have changed your mind about how one must treat the sacred Name of God but I'm willing to bet that the mere presence of the Jewish position has affected your final position (in true Rabbinic fashion)? I would be seriously surprised if you would invoke Gods proper name in an online forum where individuals where using four letter words like F**K. Perhaps you never would have but surely the Jewish concept of Keddushah would appear in your mind and influence you (perhaps even in a forum where things were getting heated you would not use it). Who knows.

Having determined that you have been in a particular place which had some hypocrites, or learning that there is at least 1 so-called "Messianic" Organization which is really "Hebrew Christian" in nature (just playing Jewish while not caring about Torah) is no reason to turn full fury reversing loyalties and turning your previous teachers into enemies. [as mentioned to you in private I have always found that organization to be more like their original "Hebrew Christian Alliance" name, focusing more on the flesh than on the Torah].
I know for a certain there is 1 Jewish tradition saved by those who did not believe in Yeshua, which you will never be able to escape from. The Hebrew bible with its current vowel system as preserved by the Tiberian school just 1000 years ago. The very vowel system which tells us what words mean in the bible. How fortunate we are for that tradition kept by men who did not know our wonderful savior developed this system, much of which is preserved in the Talmud Tractate Sopherim.

For anyone else interested in studying extra-biblical Jewish literature, I'd recommend starting with Avot (the fathers), followed by Midrash Rabbah. The parallels in Pirqei Avot "Ethics of the Fathers" to the New testament will be truly astounding and the stories told in the Midrash can vary from humorous to illuminating.
Taken from that book (Talmud Tractate Avot) is the wise saying, "the wise man learns from everyone".
 
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