Why Jews don't say the sacred name of G-d & Maybe nobody should

[The Revolting Man]

So.... No objective critique of the data?

Which particular set of data? From which particular group that claims to know which particular name? You could spend your lifetime chasing conspiracy theories about the Name of God or you could just accept that our puny minds can’t comprehend it, our sinful lips can’t speak it and even if we could we would burn in a righteous fire if we tried.

 

[rockfox]

our sinful lips can’t speak it

This is just silly. A name is something to identify a person/god. Something to differentiate them from others for purposes of address and description. For it to be unspeakable defeats the entire purpose of having a name. It is the same as not having a name.

 

[The Revolting Man]

This is just silly. A name is something to identify a person/god. Something to differentiate them from others for purposes of address and description. For it to be unspeakable defeats the entire purpose of having a name. It is the same as not having a name.

Then I’m silly, but some things are too sacred for us.

 

[Pacman]

Then I’m silly, but some things are too sacred for us.

I'm curious where you get that from?


Psalm 116 among other passages seems to contradict that.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I'm curious where you get that from?


Psalm 116 among other passages seems to contradict that.

Psalms 116 didn’t actually use the name of the Lord one time. You can check out my favorite passage of scripture, Revelation 19:12 though and see that He has a name written than no one knows but Himself. All of the names we think we know are forms of the phrase “I AM THAT I AM”. Which was pretty much a way of telling Moses to shut the hell up it didn’t concern him who He was. We know some of the descriptions of God, we don’t know who He is. Remember that God gave Adam the power to the name the animals. He would never have given Adam that power over Himself.

 

[IshChayil]

I'm curious where you get that from?
Psalm 116 among other passages seems to contradict that.

People often conflate sheym to mean "name" as it does in English. In Biblical Hebrew it more often than note means something like "fame/reputation/knowledge of my mighty deeds." When scripture says His sheym will resound through all the Earth it doesn't mean there will be echos of 4 letters all over the place; it means everyone will know of Him and His mighty deeds. In Jewish understanding, there is a very bad sin called "profaning the name"; this is when someone does something bad publicly in front of non-believers who know you are a believer in the G-d of Israel in essence making G-d's reputation look bad to the unbelievers. We hear this all the time from the secular types, "why would I want to be a Christian look at how they behave."
It's the sin of profaning hashem which means His reputation in this instance. There's much more to be said about the meaning of the word sheym in Hebrew.

This is just silly. A name is something to identify a person/god. Something to differentiate them from others for purposes of address and description. For it to be unspeakable defeats the entire purpose of having a name. It is the same as not having a name.

Then I guess all the disciples were silly too; may the L-rd grant me half of their level of silliness!

 

[rockfox]

Psalms 116 didn’t actually use the name of the Lord one time. You can check out my favorite passage of scripture, Revelation 19:12 though and see that He has a name written than no one knows but Himself. All of the names we think we know are forms of the phrase “I AM THAT I AM”. Which was pretty much a way of telling Moses to shut the hell up it didn’t concern him who He was. We know some of the descriptions of God, we don’t know who He is. Remember that God gave Adam the power to the name the animals. He would never have given Adam that power over Himself.

And yet the name is all over the Old Testament; quite clearly not the same as "He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.".

As to Adam...silly, the authority to PICK a name is not the same as USING it.

 

[enlargeourtent]

ב"ה
It's late, after 5 AM here but I think this is a question which deserves to be answered and I'm gonna just bang out the gist of it here.

Reason plopping down (this will be a mix of why Jews don't and why Messianic Jews don't.

There is a lot of misunderstanding of passages such as "by my name" or "for my name's sake" etc. There are Hebrew idioms at play which have to do with a range of meanings from "my power" to "my esteem".
The underlying drive is a desire to sanctify G-d's name; it's a respect issue on the one hand and a holiness issue on the other. Check back often as I'm sure tomorrow I'll add more to this list as I remember reasons.

Reasons Jews / Messianics do not pronounce out loud the Tetragrammaton
(4 letter name of G-d) :

1. Holy (Kadosh) in Hebrew suggests "set apart, not easily accessible". Sabbath is "holy" because it is not the other 6 days... it's "special", we torah keepers treat it differently than other days. G-d's 4 letter name is also holy. So we do not treat it like a regular name like Bob, or Bill (no offense guys). Instead we often substitute הקדוש ברוך הוא"Hakadosh barukh hu"(the Holy One blessed be He) which I find beautiful. We may also say "Adonai" (lit: "My L-rds") or אל שדי "El Shadai"or when not praying simply השם "Ha-shem" (THE Name).
2. Hebrew numbers-even the way we write numbers in the bible using Hebrew letters, avoids writing G-d's name or a short version of it. For example, א the 1st letter is 1. ב the 2nd letter is 2. this continues until we reach 11 which is 10 + 1 (א+י). When we hit the number 15 which should be yod plus heh (part of G-d's name), the bible instead changes the scheme for that number to be tet (9) + vav (6) thus avoiding writing a number which would look like His name.
3. Nobody is 100% sure how to say the name. Most who learn Hebrew a bit blunder over the name thinking they know how to pronounce it only to find it occurs elsewhere with different vowels! Is His name pronounced differently? I've had Hebrew roots guys make the claim "seems not so important if we say it exactly right since it's even different in different places in the bible"... knowing just enough Hebrew to be dangerous... (I've explained in a different post the spelling stuff, and this is gonna be a long post anyway so ask if you wanna know the why).
4. In Yeshua's day, the Greek Septuagint had been in use for centuries already and in the entire Greek Old Testament the name of G-d is never transliterated. Instead, we find only κύριος Kurios "L-rd", obviously substituting אדוני "Adonai" for the Tetragrammaton (4 letter name of G-d).
5. Of the 5800 Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament, there are only 2 fragments which have the Name in them (they occur in Hebrew letters). I think these were copies for Jewish believing communities who could be "trusted" with the name. Why was the early church so careful not to include the divine name in the new scriptures? Instead they wrote the Greek equivalent of "Adonai" (my L-rd) [κύριος Kurios].
6. For 2600 years Jews have not said this name aloud except in this circumstance: we are told by the talmud that when the chief priest would enter in to the holy of holies on יום כיפור "Yom Kippur" (the day of atonement) the holiest day of the year at the holiest place on Earth, by the holiest person on Earth (not just a priest but a high priest [so let's not get into "but we are all priests no?"]) they would tie a rope around his ankle so that if he had a sinful thought when he uttered the name of G-d, and G-d struck him dead, the other priests could drag him out of the room without risking their own lives entering in.
7. The biblical text itself as preserved by the Masoretes, composed of both Pharasaical and Karaite Jews, intentionally pointed (wrote vowels) the name the way it is supposed to be read. In the bible we have "ketiv" (how words are written) and "qere" (how they are to be read). Often the margin will show that a certain word in the text is written differently than how it is to be read. This gets a little complex, you can read about the "masorah" if you want to know more on this. Any way the idea is that the "masorah" the textual tradition and the way Jews had entire books of the bible memorized (by singing) sometimes differed from the text. We may have a verse memorized as "Elohim" (G-d) and the text says "the name". In these cases the text is pointed with the vowels for Elohim under the tetragrammaton. This preserved the written text (where sometimes zealous scribes saught to make clear to Israelites it's not any of the אלוהים Elohim "gods" we are talking about here, it's THE NAME so as scrolls were copied they evolved to have the name written in certain places where it had previously said Adonai or Elohim.
8. Our fathers taught us not to say it aloud, and we must honor our fathers. Certainly it is not a sin to not say the Name so we obey our fathers.
9. It is disrespectful to call your father by his first name. Imagine how your siblings would look at you if you said to your father, "Hey Frank what do you think about ...?" How much more so our heavenly father who is far holier than your Earthly dad.
10. The Messiah Yeshua taught us how to address G-d the Father, He taught us to say "Abba, Father who is in heavens..." If the Messiah himself addresses G-d as "Father" and teaches us to do so, why in the world is it suddenly so important now to pronounce the divine name? What was Yeshua missing there? If "Abba" is good enough for the literal son of G-d, then it's good enough for me as a mortal son.

I know I left off tons so please, if this is an issue you find interesting check back later as I'll update this list. For now I think this is substantial enough to at least help people understand why Jews and Messianics don't say the holiest name on our impure lips. We sanctify His great and mighty name; we do not make it common/ordinary (meaning of profane in Hebrew), but we make it Kadosh, special and different.

Shalom, please don't anyone be angry by this post , I'm not out to make any of you wrong, I'm just trying to share with my Hebrew roots brothers / sisters why Jews and Messianics behave this way.
שבוע טוב

It's good to understand other people's reasons why they don't believe in using pronouncing His Name (can't help but notice the lack of Scriptures or commands to not speak or utter His name), but when someone, a child, asks what His father's name is, he should know, shouldn't he? I heard a child ask a Messianic rabbi what the Father's name was, because this rabbi had just finished preaching on how Holy Hashem's name is. He was given the traditional answer, "we're not holy enough to say His name". He wouldn't tell the boy His name. It was heartbreaking to hear. The boy was seeking truth, and he didn't get it. While it's well and good to understand why some people are afraid to say His name, it's equally good to be aware of the reason others aren't afraid to say His name, because of Scriptures, starting in the Torah, and continuing into the New Testament, that say we shouldn't be afraid to say it, or write it:

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of YHUH: ascribe ye greatness unto our Aluhym. Deuteronomy 32:1-3

When thy people Israel be smitten down before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee, and shall turn again to thee, and confess thy name, and pray, and make supplication unto thee in this house: 1 Kings 8:33

Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name. 1 Kings 8:43

And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of YHUH: and the Aluhym that answereth by fire, let him be Aluhym. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken. 1 Kings 18:24

And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made. 1 Kings 18:26

And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, YHUH Aluhym of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art Aluhym in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word. Hear me, O YHUH, hear me, that this people may know that thou art YHUH Aluhym, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.1 Kings 18:36-37

And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, YHUH, he is Ha Aluhym; YHUH, he is Ha Aluhym. 1 Kings 18:39

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, YHUH, hast not forsaken them that seek thee. Psalm 9:10

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of YHUH our Aluhym. Psalm 20:7

I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. Psalm 22:22

If we have forgotten the name of our Aluhym, or stretched out our hands to a strange Al Psalm 44:20

I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever. Psalm
45:17

Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name. Psalm 79:6

Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O YHUH. Psalm 83:16

Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. Psalm 91:14

To declare the name of YHUH in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem Psalm 102:21

Then called I upon the name of YHUH; O YHUH, I beseech thee, deliver my soul. Psalm 116:4

Blessed be he that cometh in the name of YHUH Psalm 118:26

I have remembered thy name, O YHUH, in the night, and have kept thy law. Psalm 119:55

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Psalm 30:4

Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal. Jeremiah 23:27

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of YHUH shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as YHUH hath said, and in the remnant whom YHUH shall call. Joel 2:32

For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of YHUH, to serve him with one consent. Zephaniah 3:9

A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith YHUH of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name? Malachai 1:6

Then they that feared YHUH spake often one to another: and YHUH hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared YHUH, and that thought upon his name. Malachai 3:16

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost Matthew 28:19

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5:43

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. John 17:6

And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. John 17:26

PLEASE NOTE THAT ACTS 4 SAYS THE JEWS WHO REJECTED YAHUSHA ARRESTED JOHN AND PETER FOR SPEAKING AND TEACHING IN YAHUSHA'S NAME. THEY COMMANDED THEM NOT TO SPEAK AT ALL OR TEACH IN HIS NAME. JOHN AN PETER REPLIED SAYING IT IS BETTER TO OBEY ALUHYM THAN MEN, AND WENT ON CONTINUING TO PREACH IN YAHUSHA'S NAME. THE LEADERS IN JUDAISM AND MESSIANIC JUDAISM CONTINUE TO COMMAND MESSIANICS TO NOT SPEAK OR TEACH IN THIS NAME. THEY CAUSE CONFUSION ABOUT THE NAME, HOW IT'S PRONOUNCED, WHETHER IT SHOULD BE PRONOUNCED, ANYTHING TO DISTRACT FOLKS FROM LEARNING AND DECLARING HIS NAME. THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN. IT HAPPENED IN ACTS 4, IT CONTINUES TODAY. YAHUSHA CAME IN THE FATHER'S NAME. IF YOU DON'T LEARN THE FATHER'S NAME, YOU MAY NOT RECOGNIZE THE SON'S NAME. THERE'S A REASON TO THIS DAY, WE SAY "HALLELUYAH". YAHUAH'S NAME IS PRESERVED IN THE COMMAND IN HEBREW TO PRAISE YAH.

 

[enlargeourtent]

I don't have a lot a time to add to this, but ran across this yesterday. Amos chapter 5 seems to be significant and directly lists the name of the LORD several times. Where it affects this thread is in chapter 6.

Amos 6:8 The Lord GOD hath sworn by himself, saith the LORD the God of hosts, I abhor the excellency of Jacob, and hate his palaces: therefore will I deliver up the city with all that is therein.
And it shall come to pass, if there remain ten men in one house, that they shall die.
And a man’s uncle shall take him up, and he that burneth him, to bring out the bones out of the house, and shall say unto him that is by the sides of the house, Is there yet any with thee? and he shall say, No. Then shall he say, Hold thy tongue: for we may not make mention of the name of the LORD.
For, behold, the LORD commandeth, and he will smite the great house with breaches, and the little house with clefts.

Chapter 5 seems to be telling them to speak the name and what name they are to speak. Chapter 6 seems to be saying not to say the name of the Lord. The difference between the two seems to be that the people have become repugnant to God and so He has determined to punish them with captivity, destroying their land etc

Time context is about 750 BC before Israel goes into captivity.
It appears that the prohibition is for those who are out of favor with God, presumably because they are false swearers, and are being punished. Due to this being the book of Amos, (pre captivity) this may also be a prophetic mandate for when they are in captivity.

Could be wrong about this and there may be another place that definitively states not to say His Name, but this seems to corroborate a study that I read several years ago that said that the prohibition did not begin until they were in captivity. After the diaspora the tradition continued until virtually no one actually knew how to pronounce the Holy Name.

So . . . . Is the only reason tradition? . . . Carried over from a people who had violated their covenant with God? . . . And is that a justifiable reason for the righteous remnant or for those who are called by His Name to not use His Name?

That's how I've been seeing it, too, Verify. Jeremiah 44 seems to also confirm what you're noticing there in Amos 5 and 6. If you make a list, instead of pros and cons, make one side those who mention/love/declare/confess/publish/seek out His name, versus those who don't, and forbid others from speaking it, you see those who declare His name are well favored, loved, blessed, righteous, those who don't...well not very good things. I've come to understand that we're not to say the names of other gods, but we ARE to make mention of HIS name. The Bible mentions blotting out the names of those who aren't in the book of life, those who are wicked. He doesn't want us blotting out His name, making it void, or bringing it to naught. That's disrespectful. In the Book of Ester, Haman's name became a curse, so the Jews in Babylon refused to speak it. The religious leaders have some things backwards here. Didn't Yahusha say something about straining a gnat, and swallowing a camel? Or maybe it was something about forsaking His commandments for the commandments of men? Or maybe it was something about avoiding the yeast of the pharisees?

 

[enlargeourtent]

So the shortened "Yah" would be the same? Better? Worse?

HalleluYAH! Sounds good to me to say Yah, the Bible does, but it uses the longer version, too, so probably should we...

 

[enlargeourtent]

Having recently come to this understanding regarding the dubious origin of the word "God", though a slightly different dubious than what Kevin found, I trained myself to use "El" where I would have used "God". I don't care to use dubious-origin words, but I like rockfox's point about effective communication. With those things in mind, I have been taking a middle-ground approach; I use "El" when I expect the hearer to know what "El" means, and I use "God" when I don't expect the hearer to know what "El" means.

My issue with only using El/Al is that it is singular, and in most cases the Bible says Elohim, or Aluhym, the plural form, when speaking of YHUH (Yahuah). That's important to note that the Father and Son are Echad/united as ONE Elohim/Aluhym, not separate, because ALUHYM said, "Let US make man in OUR image."

 

[enlargeourtent]

11 Cor. 12:4..

"How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Could've included God's name? Any context for this? Other places in scripture that mention forbidden celestial words?

I think that's talking about profane words that aren't speakable, not heavenly, holy words.

 

[enlargeourtent]

I think that's talking about profane words that aren't speakable, not heavenly, holy words.

Nevermind, was thinking of another verse in another translation, the context in that verse is clearly heavenly, but I wouldn't assume it refers to His name, see as how the Bible mentions it over 7,000 times when individuals prayed to Yah, the prophets mentioned it, etc...

 

[The Revolting Man]

And yet the name is all over the Old Testament; quite clearly not the same as "He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.".

As to Adam...silly, the authority to PICK a name is not the same as USING it.

So what’s His name then? It’s all over the Old Testament, what is it?

 

[Pacman]

So what’s His name then? It’s all over the Old Testament, what is it?

The fact that we cannot be sure of the correct pronunciation is the result of some very unfortunate human actions and it's not evidence that it's wrong for us to pronounce it.

our sinful lips can’t speak it and even if we could we would burn in a righteous fire if we tried.

Bro I do not find that principle in Scripture it's an assumption based on tradition. You are better than that.

 

[rockfox]

HOW IT'S PRONOUNCED,

That would be a good discussion to have. As a Christian raised in America, saying His personal name is not in my habit. It's almost never mentioned that He even has one. Seeing all those verses about His name it seems rather important we use and proclaim it. Esp. ones like Psalm 102:18-22.

Haman's name became a curse, so the Jews in Babylon refused to speak it.

Maybe that's the real reason they stopped saying the name of God.

 

[The Revolting Man]

The fact that we cannot be sure of the correct pronunciation is the result of some very unfortunate human actions and it's not evidence that it's wrong for us to pronounce it.

Oh no sir. You don’t get to make that claim. I know that you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and that Human can not have entered in to it. The fact that He didn’t preserve it for us should be all the information we need on this topic.

 

[Pacman]

Oh no sir. You don’t get to make that claim. I know that you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and that Human can not have entered in to it. The fact that He didn’t preserve it for us should be all the information we need on this topic.

Bro. This still doesn't make it wrong to pronounce it. He saw fit to allow the pronunciation to be lost (or at least uncertain) but it's an assumption without basis that His reason was because it was sinful for us to say it. His ways are higher than ours we don't know why he allowed it to happen the way it did, and we don't get to make definitive declarations where God has not made them. You wouldn't and haven't tolerated that from me or anyone else here. I am grateful that you haven't it has challenged me on more than one occasion and I am better for it. I'm calling you on the same thing., you are better than that. So unless you can produce a statement from the Bible in context that clearly says this then you shouldn't make this claim.

 

[The Revolting Man]

"The fact that He didn’t preserve it for us should be all the information we need on this topic."

Well, it's not a fact, And that IS a fact. My whole contention, if you took the time to look at the evidence I presented, is that he indeed DID preserve it for us. He said his Name was his "MENTION" to "ALL GENERATIONS." So is he a liar? Or maybe he simply forgot to mention that there would come a time when we were not supposed to mention his mention? Or, as I believe, it's always been there, hidden in plain sight, and his word is true.

Nope. Every “name” we see used is a version of the acronym “ I am that I am.” We see in Revelation that God/Jesus has a name that no one knows. I still haven’t seen anyone except @Pacman have the courage to suggest an actual name because there is none that isn’t based on God’s non-answer to Moses’ impertinent question.

I have given you actual, direct statements and in scripture that we don’t know His name. I have no need to go poking around in conspiracy theories.

 

[daleallenholt]

O Adonai, my strength and my fortress, My refuge in the day of affliction, the gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, "Surely our fathers have inherited lies, Worthlessness and unprofitable things." Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods? "Therefore behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know My hand and My might; And they shall know that My Name is YeHoVaH." - Jeremiah 16:19-21
High personally revealing His TRUE name to the world.
Michael Rood and Hebrew scholar Nehemia Gordon reveal the fulfillment of Jeremiah’s prophecy in our present age, a time in which the whole world would know the REAL name of the Almighty in ... The Gentiles Shall Know My Name
https://www.facebook.com/notes/chris-w-clark/the-gentiles-shall-know-my-name/10155285516978935/