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Why Jews don't say the sacred name of G-d & Maybe nobody should

This all goes back to the same discussions in other places about 'Who is a Jew' in God's eyes, and how does prophecy get fulled based on that understanding..
I doubt very seriously that God is a Zionist in a physical since. Zionism is the confusion of names, peoples, and land locations to justify a political outcome...
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Hope you don't mind that I deleted your selective definition of Zionism (focusing on a political movement instead of the Religious zionists).
There is such a thing as "Christian Zionism" which is the position of most Evangelicals & Pentecostals.
Zionism is also the position of All Messianics and all Hebrew Roots (with whom I've met or heard their teachings).
I'd like to humbly remind you that this is the Messianic / Hebrew Roots forum.

I won't be baited into a discussion claiming we don't know who the Jews are. There's simply no motivation in centuries past to "fake it" as there was no benefit, only suffering for that identification.
I also don't think G-d is the tricky sort to tell Abraham who was desperate for a physical son to give his inheritance to "hey Abe you know that land I promised to your offspring, psycccche! I'm gonna give it to all the spiritual offspring you'll have later, sucka!"

When I say G-d is a Zionist I'm leaning on verses like: Ezekiel 34:13, Amos 9:15, Jeremiah 3:18, etc.
To deny that G-d has brought the Jews back to the land of Israel is to rob Christians of one of the greatest arguments against biblical detractors: the mere existence and resilience of the modern state of Israel and the resurrection of the Holy Language to status of living language.

In my experience; those who bring up "Zionism" as if it were a bad word have major issues in their heart against G-d's chosen people so you may want to consider what's prompting you to bring it up here in a discussion about the sacred Name of G-d. I'd ask if you want to continue more on that theme, consider posting it outside the Hebrew Roots / Messianic Jewish section.
Thanks
 
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In the first century, did they not conceive of themselves as Hebrews or Israelites? I always had the impression Jew was a more modern identification that got read into discussions of the ancient peoples.

I also don't think G-d is the tricky sort to tell Abraham who was desperate for a physical son to give his inheritance to "hey Abe you know that land I promised to your offspring, psycccche! I'm gonna give it to all the spiritual offspring you'll have later, sucka!"

But He did give him physical offspring and gave them the promised land. It just so happened they rebelled and got cut off. That's certainly not God's fault.

To deny that G-d has brought the Jews back to the land of Israel is to rob Christians of one of the greatest arguments against biblical detractors: the mere existence and resilience of the modern state of Israel and the resurrection of the Holy Language to status of living language.

Not really, not considering they still reject Jesus. I think the dead sea scrolls are a far more powerful argument; not just in showing the preservation of the scriptures, but in establishing that the prophetic scriptures predate Jesus.
 
In the first century, did they not conceive of themselves as Hebrews or Israelites?
They did, however both Judaism and Christianty conflate the terms 'Israel' and 'Jew.' I spend a whole chapter in my book Ten Parts In The King demonstrating that they are not always synonymous and prophetically had two different courses and missions on their journey to the end of the age.

Conflating the two confuses so many prophesies, yet once one understands and recognizes the difference, Scripture suddenly becomes a roadmap with clear markers and identifiable things that are on the verge of happening....
 
I'd like to humbly remind you that this is the Messianic / Hebrew Roots forum.

Are you suggesting that any view that is different than yours should not be brought up here?

I won't be baited into a discussion claiming we don't know who the Jews are.

Not trying to bait you, or anyone else into anything, just sharing my view. Take it or leave it. However your use of the word 'we' implies that you and I are different, because I am not a part of your 'we'. And with all due respect, further claims, as one looks deeper into to it seems to suggest, that you are in a better place than I because you seem to know better than I in this matter. I was under the impression that WE are all Christians and none of us holds a position any higher than any other fellow brother.

In my experience; those who bring up "Zionism" as if it were a bad word have major issues in their heart against G-d's chosen people so you may want to consider what's prompting you to bring it up here in a discussion about the sacred Name of G-d. I'd ask if you want to continue more on that theme, consider posting it outside the Hebrew Roots / Messianic Jewish section.
Thanks

These comments are exactly the reasons the term 'chosen people' brought by 'Jews' leaves a bad taste in 'non-chosen' peoples mouths. And again, are only the views if Hebrew Roots / Messianic Jewish participates only to be discussed here without opposition? My suggestion is make this section private then. My participation in this thread resulted from trying to clarify the use of the label 'Jew' that someone else made which was in itself beyond the scope of the OP.

My only point in all this is to try and make sure labels for family groups and land locations for that group don't get mixed up in Zionism, at least for me.

This was the only reference I made to the concept of Zionism.

G-d's a Zionist bro....

This was your response that brought us to were we are now.
 
In my experience; those who bring up "Zionism" as if it were a bad word have major issues in their heart against G-d's chosen people

That is an incredibly simplistic, zealous perspective. Sounds much like those who toss about the accusation of anti-semite against anyone who would criticize a Jew or Israeli policy, as if they were perfect and above criticism and never did anything that would ever legitimately cause anyone to oppose them.
 

Because Deuteronomy 12:32 - 13:5 tells them to... at least the “version” of Jesus that mainstream Christianity has taught for centuries...
 
Because Deuteronomy 12:32 - 13:5 tells them to... at least the “version” of Jesus that mainstream Christianity has taught for centuries...
That does not explain why they rejected him back then. Yeshua did not teach corrupted Christian doctrines. They rejected Him for other reasons.
 
In response to several comments, this section of the forum WAS set up so that Torah keepers could discuss the issues important to us without having to defend the base concepts. Others are welcome to join in but if you read the introductory post this isn't the place to be attacking the concept. We have the whole open forum for that and I think many of us will be happy to engage you there on the existential issues surrounding Torah. But no one should be getting combative in this section unless it's Torah people hacking at each other. I think you'll agree that some of the best hackers on the forum fall under this umbrella and we can do the job quite well on our own thank you.
 
Because Deuteronomy 12:32 - 13:5 tells them to... at least the “version” of Jesus that mainstream Christianity has taught for centuries...

What Jolene said. The Jews of today are the sons of the Jews of yesterday who rejected Jesus. It's a bit rich to claim it's all because of what mainstream Christianity recently began teaching. There is a lot of animosity toward Jesus that comes from historical feelings, not from looking at recent Christian mis-teachings and deciding Jesus was a false prophet.

I read a Jew the other day who observed that a Jew could become Buddhist and no one blinks an eye but accepting Christ? "We don't do that we're Jews." It would seem they've made hating the Messiah part of their identity. They can't pin that on the Gentiles.
 
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In response to several comments, this section of the forum WAS set up so that Torah keepers could discuss the issues important to us without having to defend the base concepts. Others are welcome to join in but if you read the introductory post this isn't the place to be attacking the concept. We have the whole open forum for that and I think many of us will be happy to engage you there on the existential issues surrounding Torah. But no one should be getting combative in this section unless it's Torah people hacking at each other. I think you'll agree that some of the best hackers on the forum fall under this umbrella and we can do the job quite well on our own thank you.

My apologies I think I stirred some of this one up.
 
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The original rejection was by elements of the religious ruling elite. He was a major threat to their power. At the time, the average person in Judea embraced Him and even thousands of priests followed after His resurrection. The haters composed a very small but powerful minority.

Today, Jews, almost universally, hate Yeshua because of what WE have done to them in the name of Christ. It is high time we repent for our sins and the sins of our fathers against the Jews. Pogroms, torment, hate, etc... the major impediment to the average Jew hearing the Messiah is a lack of tears on the part of those who claim to love a Jewish Rabbi named Yeshua.
 
But He did give him physical offspring and gave them the promised land. It just so happened they rebelled and got cut off. That's certainly not God's fault.
The promises to Jacob still stand and the covenant with the house of Judah us still in place. The prophets clearly tell of a future full restoration. Paul warns us not to be prideful toward the natural branch lest we be broken off. Just because they have been disciplined does not give us any cause for joy. Rather, we should pray daily for their full restoration to the head of the house.
 
Today, Jews, almost universally, hate Yeshua because of what WE have done to them in the name of Christ. It is high time we repent for our sins and the sins of our fathers against the Jews. Pogroms, torment, hate, etc... the major impediment to the average Jew hearing the Messiah is a lack of tears on the part of those who claim to love a Jewish Rabbi named Yeshua.

This reminds me of the current attempts from some in present day to try and make Caucasian people, sorry Caucasian male people, responsible for slavery over a hundred years ago. But I do agree that both sides need to put down thier weapons and go forward in the path God has provided. The important thing is Christ and not how we each got here. Trying to hold onto past ideologies, from both sides defeats that purpose. In my opinion this seperate forum section further defines the division between the so called chosen and non chosen people, which when you get right down to it, is the reason for all this.
 
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The promises to Jacob still stand and the covenant with the house of Judah us still in place. The prophets clearly tell of a future full restoration. Paul warns us not to be prideful toward the natural branch lest we be broken off. Just because they have been disciplined does not give us any cause for joy. Rather, we should pray daily for their full restoration to the head of the house.

Paul also makes a distinction between Sarah and Hagar. I believe there are two paths that are being talked about when it comes to prophecies in regards to the Hebrew nation.
 
One thing I would be interested in knowing is how this statement is handled by those who hold to a physical restoration of the Hebrew nation. Paul does seem to reference a different view. The normal interpretation of this is that the slave women represent Muslims. I don't think that is true.

Galatians 4:28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
 
One thing I would be interested in knowing is how this statement is handled by those who hold to a physical restoration of the Hebrew nation. Paul does seem to reference a different view. The normal interpretation of this is that the slave women represent Muslims. I don't think that is true.

Galatians 4:28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
Working bow but will be happy to address this passage in full when I have time. There is a very simple answer if we look at the passage in context and the whole of Galatians within the larger context of times, Paul's action and teaching as well as Yeshua. The very short answer is that Christians have historically used the letter to the Galatians to nullify the Word of God and codify their traditions, not unlike the Pharisees in Matthew 15 and Mark 7.
 
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One thing I would be interested in knowing is how this statement is handled by those who hold to a physical restoration of the Hebrew nation. Paul does seem to reference a different view. The normal interpretation of this is that the slave women represent Muslims. I don't think that is true.

Galatians 4:28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

@Cap , Thank you for asking how we understand this passage from Galatians.

Galatians is the 'go to' passage that Christendom has long used as Paul's rebuke of the Jews and rejection of the Torah. The problem is that most Christians do not understand the context of Paul's argument or some of the language he is using, which is further exacerbated by a lack of understanding of Paul himself. So the BIG picture is necessary.

Paul was a Torah observant Pharisee, a Jew of the tribe of Benjamin. There is not a single example anywhere in Scripture of him doing something contrary to the Torah of Moses. In Acts he is recorded as only teaching on the Sabbath as the normative day of weekly worship, he keeps the feasts - even traveling to Jerusalem in haste to do so, offering sacrifices, and testifying of himself that he never broke the Law of Moses or of the Jews. Further, it is recorded that his detractors had to use false witnesses to try to establish a case against him and even then, they regarded Paul as a member of a sect of Judaism known as 'The Way.' He never converted to anything, contrary to the (uninspired) heading in your Bible at the beginning of Acts 9.

Pharisees at the time believed that to be part of God's people, one had to convert to Pharisaical Judaism as a proselyte. The code word, or abbreviated terminology was 'circumcision,' such as 'the party of the circumcision.' Proselyte conversion included not just the Biblical practice of circumcision, but taking on the full weight of the Oral Traditions, or halacha. (pronounced halaKAH) We see Yeshua dressing the Pharisees down for this very issue on multiple occasions, the most serious being Matthew 15 and Mark 7. The 'traditions of the elders' or 'traditions of men' had largely been enacted at and after the Babylonian exile and exist nowhere within the written Torah. Paul, having been well advanced in Pharisaic law (traditions) knew very well the whole sticky and weighty mess. (Aside: Good book to read to see the current issue debated by Jews who love Yeshua is Rabbinic Judaism Debunked. But, before doing the 'I told you so' happy dance, there is just as much religious tradition on the Christian side that we say must be followed for salvation, too... BOTH sides are in the process of having the Father clean their houses...)

Acts 15, esp v 5 demonstrates that this false works based religious thought system was trying to infiltrate the new non-Jewish believers. Paul was livid, and rightly so. Salvation was by faith... always has been, ask Abraham! Obedience to God's Law, the Torah, has always been His expectation, but also brings life, peace, blessings, and righteousness to name a few of the Scriptural promises. Paul affirms these truths throughout his letters. The Acts 15 ruling even affirms the Torah stating that new, non-Jews will at a minimum do four things: avoid things contaminated by idols, fornication, strangled meats and blood. Then they say demonstrate an expectation that the believers will learn the Torah of Moses in the synagogue on Shabbat. (See 15:20-21)

Galatians is written within this context. Scholars debate whether it was written before or after Acts 15. I tend to think it was before with the definitive ruling of Acts 15 settling the issue that Paul was addressing.

One final challenge when we read Paul is that the Greek has only one word for law, nomos. Paul, throughout his letters, speaks of numerous different 'laws.' While Torah is a primary subject in many places, he also speaks of the Oral Law, the law of sin, law of sin and death, law of life, etc.... In each case, we must carefully consider context to determine what he is talking about because 'law' = 'law' but 'Torah' =/= 'traditions/Oral Law.'

In Galatians, Paul is redressing his young congregation for allowing the false idea of Jewish Oral traditions from being salvific. These are the works of the law he rails against. He is not against the Torah. This is the difference between works salvation (oral traditions) and salvation by faith demonstrated by obedience. (Paul and James agreed, however, Paul was fighting a different battle than James in the early congregation.) And, it is this difference that Hagar (works) and Sarah (faith) demonstrate. Abraham still had to 'perform' with Sarah to gain a son, but it was an act of faith, knowing she was barren.

I would recommend taking the time to work through the Pauline Paradox series on YouTube by 119Ministries. Part five may be the longest as it deals with the most difficult book in Scripture: Galatians. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=119ministries+galatians Other shorter videos pop up with that search, though may not be as in depth and Scripture laden.

Blessings!
 
It's a bit rich to claim it's all because of what mainstream Christianity recently began teaching.

This was not my claim. My response was to your statement that they still reject him. And I’m pointing it out as being a factor. Obviously it’s not the only reason... also the idea that it’s “recently” is completely incorrect. Mainstream Christianity has been distorting Jesus teaching since at least Constantine if not before...
 
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