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3 Questions From Real Life | Marriage Divorce Remarriage

Sorry, but wrong. His Word shows, over and over again, that even BAD vows are binding (see Yakov and what he told Laban that cost him Rachel, and Joshua with the Gibeonites, etc, etc.) Numbers 30:3.

Even a "deal with the devil," can be binding. See Faustus.
I respectfully disagree although I don't believe we are that far apart on this issue. Jacob's vow that unintentionally killed Rachel was valid. I'm referring to those that promote sin or go against God's hierarchy.

The vow to not eat or drink until they killed Paul Acts 23:12 was not a valid vow. A vow to rob a bank is not a valid vow because it's a sin to steal. Likewise a man who would take a vow to obey everything his wife says is also invalid. A vow must be legitimate. Do you believe that a Satanist that makes a vow to serve Lucifer forever can never turn towards God? Because if you do this trumps God's hierarchy. Because he said that all souls are his Ezekiel 18:4.
 
Sorry, but wrong. His Word shows, over and over again, that even BAD vows are binding (see Yakov and what he told Laban that cost him Rachel, and Joshua with the Gibeonites, etc, etc.) Numbers 30:3.

Even a "deal with the devil," can be binding. See Faustus.
So are you saying that a marriage vow between two men to marry each other or a brother and a sister are both valid?
 
Which is why Jesus taught us very clearly not to make vows at all. A direct instruction from Him that the church blatantly violates by requiring marriage vows. We should not make vows. Because vows are a serious business, and stand even if they were wrong to make.

Also remember that polygamy is not mandatory. Nor is marriage at all.

It is therefore not unscriptural to make a vow of chastity, to vow to be devoted solely to God and not to a spouse. Both scripture and history show that such a life can be a very good thing, and a great blessing to the Kingdom. Because chastity is permissible, such a vow is not sinful (although the vow itself is inadvisable, it would be better to just live a life of chastity without the vow).

In the same way, monogamy is entirely permissible - in fact, statistically, most marriages will be monogamous. So a promise to your wife to be monogamous is not sinful. If it is done as a vow to God, that vow stands - you had every right to make such a promise, you were only promising to do something that is not only permissible, but entirely lawful and good. Again, you'd have been better not to vow it, but that doesn't exempt you from following through. We must be men of our words.

Such a vow does NOT go against God's laws or hierarchy. It is simply a decision, as the husband (the head of the family), that this family will be a monogamous one. The husband is the exact person in that hierarchy who has the authority to decide how many wives he will have, and he made a completely legitimate decision. So it is completely in keeping with the hierarchy.
What about conflicting vows? If a man did the "forsaking all others" vow but a few years later made a vow to another woman. Which vow would you say is invalid?

Here's another scenario what if a man married a woman using the traditional vows then a few years later he married another woman using the "forsaking all others" which one would be invalid?
 
Numbers 30:2

When a man makes a vow to the Lord or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said.

A case can be argued that if a man makes a reckless vow with his mouth - saying I will rob the bank tomorrow - then I believe it could be compared to something like coveting a neighbor's wife. You haven't done the physical act. But as Christ says you've already committed adultery in your heart. Or if a man makes a vow to YAH that he will marry another man - then I believe it could be compared to something like already committing homosexuality in his heart. Such a vow exposes the condition of your heart.

But if you come to your senses and don't rob the bank - then you've still sinned by breaking a vow to the Most High God. All sins can be forgiven if we come to repentance - due to the precious blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that he shed for our sins. All of us fall short - but it's important to acknowledge/realize our flaw/sin - and repent of it; and rely on the grace and mercy of the Alpha and Omega - Jesus Christ.

Reading all of the examples in the old testament of the bad consequences that occurred from making vows - makes me never want to take one. For example, Joshua made a vow to the Gibeonites for peace. But many years later King Saul murders them; thus breaking Israel's vow of peace with the Gibeonites. So some years later - a 3 year long famine came into the land of Judah and Israel, and King David inquired the LORD on the cause of it - the reason for the famine was because of Saul's murder of the Gibeonites (2 Samuel 21:1). There are many other examples of vows - which turned out bad - because no one knows what's going to happen in the future - only the LORD knows.

James 3:6-8
And among all the parts of the body, the tongue is a flame of fire. It is a whole world of wickedness, corrupting your entire body. It can set your whole life on fire, for it is set on fire by hell itself.

7 People can tame all kinds of animals, birds, reptiles, and fish, 8 but no one can tame the tongue. It is restless and evil, full of deadly poison.
 
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What about conflicting vows? If a man did the "forsaking all others" vow but a few years later made a vow to another woman. Which vow would you say is invalid?

Here's another scenario what if a man married a woman using the traditional vows then a few years later he married another woman using the "forsaking all others" which one would be invalid?
If the monogamy vow was made to the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob - and the man took for himself a 2nd wife - it would be a broken vow to the Most High God. If such a case occurred - I wouldn't divorce the 2nd wife. Because the vow has already been broken - and a divorce would just be digging a bigger hole. Instead of trying to cover the hole - I would simply come to repentance to the Lord Jesus Christ on oath taking. It's not a sin for a man to have two wives if done properly. It's a sin to break oaths - no one knows what tomorrow will bring - so we should all be much more careful with our tongues.
 
So are you saying that a marriage vow between two men to marry each other or a brother and a sister are both valid?
Not even remotely. And they're sure as #*!! not a marriage, either.

But that was not what was at issue. "Vows" are one thing. And men are to keep them, even "to their own hurt." But things that are NOT MARRIAGE to begin with don't become marriage by bad vows.

PS> Part of the misunderstanding is due to the bogus concept of "valid vows."
 
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So are you saying that a marriage vow between two men to marry each other or a brother and a sister are both valid?
No one is suggesting it is right to make a vow to break God's commands and sin. What @FollowingHim has pointed out is vowing to do something that is not a sin is a valid vow. It is not a sin to be single and celibate as Jesus Christ was, nor is it a sin to have only one wife. Shalom
 
No one is suggesting it is right to make a vow to break God's commands and sin. What @FollowingHim has pointed out is vowing to do something that is not a sin is a valid vow. It is not a sin to be single and celibate as Jesus Christ was, nor is it a sin to have only one wife. Shalom
But if you made a vow to do something sinful, you do NOT have to keep that vow.

Change my mind.
 
The vow to not eat or drink until they killed Paul Acts 23:12 was not a valid vow. A vow to rob a bank is not a valid vow because it's a sin to steal. Likewise a man who would take a vow to obey everything his wife says is also invalid. A vow must be legitimate. Do you believe that a Satanist that makes a vow to serve Lucifer forever can never turn towards God? Because if you do this trumps God's hierarchy. Because he said that all souls are his Ezekiel 18:4.
I believe people are not grasping this.
 
Like the other things a person may do that are wrong; that are a sin, there is a sacrifice to atone for those sins - even sins of saying things thoughtlessly. For those in Christ, He is the One who has made atonement. Confession and repentance bring forgiveness.

Lev. 5:4-6 Or if a person swears, speaking thoughtlessly with his lips to do evil or to do good, whatever it is that a man may pronounce by an oath, and he is unaware of it--when he realizes it, then he shall be guilty in any of these matters. And it shall be, when he is guilty in any of these matters, that he shall confess that he has sinned in that thing; and he shall bring his trespass offering to the Lord for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin (NKJV).
 
A case can be argued that if a man makes a reckless vow with his mouth - saying I will rob the bank tomorrow - then I believe it could be compared to something like coveting a neighbor's wife. You haven't done the physical act. But as Christ says you've already committed adultery in your heart.
But if you made a vow to do something sinful, you do NOT have to keep that vow.

Change my mind.
It's really quite simple. Taking the "vow to rob a bank" example, you now have two options:
1) Rob the bank. This is theft, which is a sin.
2) Don't rob the bank. This is breaking a vow, which is a sin.
Both options are sinful. You cannot choose not to sin - whatever you do will be a sin. But also that sin will be forgiven by God when you repent. So now you simply need to choose the lesser sin, the one that is least harmful the one with the least real-world negative consequences. Obviously, breaking the vow is by far the least harmful. So don't rob the bank, and ask God to forgive you both for breaking your vow and for making such a foolish vow in the first place.
What about conflicting vows? If a man did the "forsaking all others" vow but a few years later made a vow to another woman. Which vow would you say is invalid?

Here's another scenario what if a man married a woman using the traditional vows then a few years later he married another woman using the "forsaking all others" which one would be invalid?
Again, this is very simple, but you're asking the wrong question. As @Mark C said, the question is not "which vow is invalid". Forget about the idea of vows being valid or invalid. A vow is a vow. Both are valid.

If the man vowed to his first wife to forsake all others, she did not release him from this vow, and he decided anyway to go ahead and marry a second woman, then he has sinned by breaking his vow.
However, he now does have a second wife. He must not sin further by divorcing her - two wrongs does not make a right. He must choose to stop sinning, not keep adding more sin trying to fix things by digging himself into an even deeper hole.
So he now has two wives, like it or not.

Same goes for the man who has one wife, with monogamous vows, then has a secret affair. He is now required by scripture to marry the second woman. He can't get out of this by saying "but I vowed to be monogamous". Sure he vowed that - but he's already broken that vow. He should have thought of that before he took his pants off. It's too late now, the vow has been broken and that cannot be changed. Now he has two women anyway and he's going to have to man up to the consequences.
 
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So are you saying that a marriage vow between two men to marry each other or a brother and a sister are both valid?
But agreeing to not engage in polygynous is not a sin. Deciding to be monogamous is completely valid. Vowing to be monogamous would likewise not be sinful. Monogamy is an honorable estate. You need to find another way to nullify such a biw.
 
Not even remotely. And they're sure as #*!! not a marriage, either.

But that was not what was at issue. "Vows" are one thing. And men are to keep them, even "to their own hurt." But things that are NOT MARRIAGE to begin with don't become marriage by bad vows.

PS> Part of the misunderstanding is due to the bogus concept of "valid vows."
I understand what you are saying here but the fact remains that two men who agree to marry each other are still making a vow. I'm saying that some vows are null and void or invalid from the start. Are you saying that all vows are valid and legitimate even if they promote sin?
 
I understand what you are saying here but the fact remains that two men who agree to marry each other are still making a vow. I'm saying that some vows are null and void or invalid from the start. Are you saying that all vows are valid and legitimate even if they promote sin?
That's the thing though - if a person makes a sinful vow - no matter what that person does he or she is in sin. If that person proceeds to do that sinful vow - that person has sinned. If the person decides not to do that vow - that person has also sinned for breaking a vow. It's a no win situation - you would just have to pick a lesser of two sins. That's why we are instructed by Lord Jesus to not even make vows. Don't put yourself in that type of position.
 
Numbers 30:2

When a man makes a vow to the Lord or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said.

A case can be argued that if a man makes a reckless vow with his mouth - saying I will rob the bank tomorrow - then I believe it could be compared to something like coveting a neighbor's wife. You haven't done the physical act. But as Christ says you've already committed adultery in your heart. Or if a man makes a vow to YAH that he will marry another man - then I believe it could be compared to something like already committing homosexuality in his heart. Such a vow exposes the condition of your heart.
I agree with this point. One doesn't need an opportunity to sin only the intent to sin which an evil vow would be.
But if you come to your senses and don't rob the bank - then you've still sinned by breaking a vow to the Most High God. All sins can be forgiven if we come to repentance - due to the precious blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that he shed for our sins. All of us fall short - but it's important to acknowledge/realize our flaw/sin - and repent of it; and rely on the grace and mercy of the Alpha and Omega - Jesus Christ.
I disagree with this point not following through with a vow on something that is evil from the start is not a sin.

A case in point if I married a woman who divorced her husband for irreconcilable differences I would be committing adultery. The marriage vow that I took was invalid from the start if the vow was valid I would not be guilty of adultery by marrying a divorced woman. This is an example of God not recognizing all vows as legitimate.
 
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