Then respond with scripture not invective.
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A dating daughter is a father's failure
- Thread starter NVIII
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@MemeFan is correct that there is a risk of abuse here. Bear in mind that we get both normal, sensible people coming to this forum - and problematic people who are looking for scriptural justification for something undesirable. I completely understand @MemeFan's objection to the idea of a 100% arranged marriage, in that there truly are men who will take this to the point of abuse. I presume none of the people in this conversation have that intention - yet his concern is still real, even if it comes across as too emotive.
But seeing the parents as guiding their daughter to make good decisions, and with the decision only being made with the genuine agreement of all, avoids this problem.
This is why we guide the peer groups our children hang out in. We're well aware they're likely to want to marry someone from their peer group, so ensuring their peer group is mostly a bunch of reasonably sensible Godly people is the first major step towards a decent marriage.
But seeing the parents as guiding their daughter to make good decisions, and with the decision only being made with the genuine agreement of all, avoids this problem.
This is why we guide the peer groups our children hang out in. We're well aware they're likely to want to marry someone from their peer group, so ensuring their peer group is mostly a bunch of reasonably sensible Godly people is the first major step towards a decent marriage.
Truly?
I answer talking about human nature and you ask me to quote scripture. Like quoting scripture will change human nature.
This is “Biblical Families” not “Humanist Families”.
There is a risk of abuse in marriage itself. There is an almost certainty of abuse in dating. That's not the question, however. But, if you feel the need to protect the forum, go ahead. I did mention nobody likes to talk about it. It is the world we live in.
There seems to be wisdom in the whole family of the woman being involved. The father should wisely guide and protect the daughter in the process of mate selection (mom should help too) At the same time, a woman shouldn't be forced into marrying a man that she totally doesn't want.
Young people are foolish and easily misled, but sometimes middle aged and older men and women are misguided as well. One guy might trick the daughter. Another might deceive the father, and still another the mother. More rarely will a cad deceive everyone.
Look at the account of Isaac and Rebecca in Genesis 24. Rebecca wasn't forced into it by her father and brother.
FWIW, I will grant that this passage is descriptive not prescriptive.
"So they said, “We will call the young woman and ask her personally.” Then they called Rebekah and said to her, “Will you go with this man? And she said, “I will go.” (Gen 24:57-58 NKJV)
The account of Nick and his wife seems very reasonable.
A good match was made, and Katie was protected in the process.
Young people are foolish and easily misled, but sometimes middle aged and older men and women are misguided as well. One guy might trick the daughter. Another might deceive the father, and still another the mother. More rarely will a cad deceive everyone.
Look at the account of Isaac and Rebecca in Genesis 24. Rebecca wasn't forced into it by her father and brother.
FWIW, I will grant that this passage is descriptive not prescriptive.
"So they said, “We will call the young woman and ask her personally.” Then they called Rebekah and said to her, “Will you go with this man? And she said, “I will go.” (Gen 24:57-58 NKJV)
The account of Nick and his wife seems very reasonable.
A good match was made, and Katie was protected in the process.
I agree with the notion of arranged marriage in the sense that it is a match made for practical reasons and sometimes with the input of family and friends.
I suppose I arranged my own marriage because I chose my husband and family for very pragmatic reasons and the love came later.
My sw Amy is very much the result of an arrangement. Her situation gave her some choices and she chose our family.
So yes these were arranged marriages but they were not forced or coerced. Not in any way.
I suppose I arranged my own marriage because I chose my husband and family for very pragmatic reasons and the love came later.
My sw Amy is very much the result of an arrangement. Her situation gave her some choices and she chose our family.
So yes these were arranged marriages but they were not forced or coerced. Not in any way.
How is experience not relevant? You don’t have any scripture to back that statement up so your experience with the topic very, very important.
Here we go again.
If we keep using correct rules of logic, conclusion must be true. Ideally, starting point is axiom whose refutation proves axiom or axiom which is obviously true.
I can start with axiom that parents influence marriage decisions of their children. This isn't case when parents are dead or parents/children don't speak. I won't take such cases in consideration since they aren't topic. If parents influence their children, then key question is how much influence is proper? Only disagreements possible here is how much is proper.
Another question which needs answer is who is final decision maker? In current culture it is daughter, but author of thread proposes (@NVIII ) that father is final decision maker. OK, now it is time to consider implications what will happen when father is final decision maker.
Ludwig von Mises was able prove that socialism doesn't work doing something obvious. Then in 1910s, 1920s economists with social leaning have claimed that in centrally planned economy everything will be wonderful, scarcity will disappear etc... What is important is that they have never mentioned how socialist economy will actually work. Mises has actually checked mechanisms how socialist economy will work and he has found it wanting.
Let's check actually mechanism of father being final decision maker. Time for some game theory.
If father and daughter agree, no problem. But what if they disagree? That is key question.
If there is no punishment for daughter, then in practice, father isn't final decision maker. It is same situation as unenforced law. It is toothless order. So in this situation, daughter is final decision maker. So father must punish his daughter enough for her to change her mind in other to stay final decision maker. So, what is proper punishment? Is it obvious that punishment can go into what is abuse. But any father who believes that he is final decision maker must answer this question: How to get daughter to accept man which she doesn't want. GO guys
I'm truly interested in your answer. This is real possible situation.
There is assumption hidden in previous paragraph. Father can choose any man according to his will. Possible change is to give veto power to daughter. Father will choose according to his will any man not vetoed by daughter. But then he can't choose any man. Is that OK? What if daughter vetoes best choice according to father? What if daughter vetoes anyone till only remaining is what daughter originally wanted? In this case father practically stops being final decision maker.
People of this forum, it is time to leave proclamations and get in real world. It is time to think how this will really work in real world and find workable solution before somebody reading this forum destroys his daughter's life with some avoidable idiocy.
EDIT: Grammar correct, easier to read.
If we keep using correct rules of logic, conclusion must be true. Ideally, starting point is axiom whose refutation proves axiom or axiom which is obviously true.
I can start with axiom that parents influence marriage decisions of their children. This isn't case when parents are dead or parents/children don't speak. I won't take such cases in consideration since they aren't topic. If parents influence their children, then key question is how much influence is proper? Only disagreements possible here is how much is proper.
Another question which needs answer is who is final decision maker? In current culture it is daughter, but author of thread proposes (@NVIII ) that father is final decision maker. OK, now it is time to consider implications what will happen when father is final decision maker.
Ludwig von Mises was able prove that socialism doesn't work doing something obvious. Then in 1910s, 1920s economists with social leaning have claimed that in centrally planned economy everything will be wonderful, scarcity will disappear etc... What is important is that they have never mentioned how socialist economy will actually work. Mises has actually checked mechanisms how socialist economy will work and he has found it wanting.
Let's check actually mechanism of father being final decision maker. Time for some game theory.
If father and daughter agree, no problem. But what if they disagree? That is key question.
If there is no punishment for daughter, then in practice, father isn't final decision maker. It is same situation as unenforced law. It is toothless order. So in this situation, daughter is final decision maker. So father must punish his daughter enough for her to change her mind in other to stay final decision maker. So, what is proper punishment? Is it obvious that punishment can go into what is abuse. But any father who believes that he is final decision maker must answer this question: How to get daughter to accept man which she doesn't want. GO guys
I'm truly interested in your answer. This is real possible situation.There is assumption hidden in previous paragraph. Father can choose any man according to his will. Possible change is to give veto power to daughter. Father will choose according to his will any man not vetoed by daughter. But then he can't choose any man. Is that OK? What if daughter vetoes best choice according to father? What if daughter vetoes anyone till only remaining is what daughter originally wanted? In this case father practically stops being final decision maker.
People of this forum, it is time to leave proclamations and get in real world. It is time to think how this will really work in real world and find workable solution before somebody reading this forum destroys his daughter's life with some avoidable idiocy.
EDIT: Grammar correct, easier to read.
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I suggest that father and daughter both have veto authority. The opinions of mom and older brothers should also be taken into consideration, but they don't have veto.Here we go again.
If we keep using correct rules of logic, conclusion must be true. Ideally, starting point is axiom whose refutation proves axiom or axiom which is obviously true.
I can start with axiom that parents influence marriage decisions of their children. This isn't case when parents are dead or parents/children don't speak. I won't take such cases in consideration since they aren't topic. If parents influence their children, then key question is how much influence is proper? Only disagreements possible here is how much is proper.
Another question which needs answer is who is final decision maker? In current culture it is daughter, but author of thread proposes (@NVIII ) that father is final decision maker. OK, now time to consider implications what will happen when father is final decision maker.
Ludwig von Mises was able prove that socialism doing something obvious. Then in 1910s, 1920s economist with social leaning have claimed that in centrally planned economy everything will be wonderful, scarcity will disappear etc... What is important is that they have never mentioned how socialist economy will actually works. Mises has actually checked mechanisms how socialist economy will work and he has found it wanting.
Let's check actually mechanism of father being final decision maker. Time for some game theory.
If father and daughter agree, no problem. But what if they disagree? That is key question.
If there is no punishment for daughter, then in practice, father isn't final decision maker. It is same situation as unenforced law. It is toothless order. So in this situation, daughter is final decision maker. So father must punish his daughter enough for her to change her mind in other to stay final decision maker. So, what is proper punishment? Is it obvious that punishment can into what is abuse. But any father who believes that he is final decision maker must answer this question: How to get daughter to accept man which she doesn't want. GO guys
There is assumption hidden in previous paragraph. Father can choose any man according to his will. Possible change is to give veto power to daughter. Father will choose according to his will any man not vetoed by daughter. But then he can't choose any man. Is that OK? What if daughter vetoes best choice according to father? What if daughter vetoes anyone till only remaining is what daughter originally wanted? In this case father practically stops being final decision maker.
People of this forum, it is time to leave proclamations and get in real world. It is time to think how this will really work in real world and find workable solution before somebody reading this forum destroys his daughter life with some avoidable idiocy.
Thank you, Nick. Scriptural, please.
For instance, Exodus 22:16-17 seems to demonstrate it's up to the father, purely. Some may dismiss it because extraordinary circumstances are in play.
Genesis 24:50-51 demonstrates the same under less extraordinary circumstances. @Bartato verses 57-58 is her mother and brothers doing their best to delay or undermine for reasons unclear to me, but possibly to get more payment. Rebekah, to her credit, submits to her father's decision despite the temptation.
Just societal norms? "Descriptive not prescriptive"? Or is it a father's God-given authority and responsibility? If it is, do we know that by implication or is there anything more direct? That's what I'd like help to hammer out.
Now we are getting somewhere. Can you, please, provide your reasoning?
Is searching and openess towards all truth virtue or not? Emphasis on all, no matter the source.
My "complaints" here aren't about humanism, but how do you, @NickF and @NVII, exactly plan to fullfil Lord's command in real situations? How far, exactly, goes father's authority? And what are going to do for situation where Lord doesn't provide clear instruction (disobedient daughter -- are you OK with spanking 20 year daughter?) ?
Are you going to be like socialist economists staying in clouds or are you going to talk what to do in practice?
I really don't think it's a sidetrack at all. I believe @MemeFan is simply trying to keep this scriptural discussion grounded in reality - and that is important. Scripture exists for a practical reason, it exists to teach us how to actually live our real lives. If we come up with an interpretation of scripture that does not work in real life, however theoretically perfect it sounds, then we're almost certainly wrong.
Certainly focus the discussion on scripture. But do not get so academic about it that you lose sight of the actual goal - finding what God wishes us to do in our actual lives.
Certainly focus the discussion on scripture. But do not get so academic about it that you lose sight of the actual goal - finding what God wishes us to do in our actual lives.
Don’t misunderstand me. I’ve been counseling a few men who have been wrestling with this exact same conundrum for the past year. Desiring absolute control over your daughter is not practical, and attempting to live out those ideals is a foolish endeavor. As is evident by the fruits of one of the men losing daughters to the world.
But there is no truth that is not founded in scripture.
In my experience, men that start down this path need to learn they do have scriptural authority. But having God’s stamp of approval on where you can lead your family doesn’t do much good when you and your family are held captive in a concentration camp.
Practical walking out is a critical component. But it follows after there is a solid understanding of truth according to God’s Word.
I apologize for the disjointed posting but I really shouldn't even be on here with all I have on my plate at the moment.
What I'm trying to say is without a solid lifelong foundation and extremely strong ties binding a young woman to her father's leadership, there can not be any success in arranged marriages in western culture america. It just doesn't work, there is too much pressure from the world telling her she is her own person who can make her own decisions and screw whoever she wants whenever she wants, she's a bad boss B and doesn't need no man! The tide is rushing too fast to expect an emotional teenage young woman to think clearly and resist the cultural current without STRONG training from a very young age. Most people don't bother doing that. Or waited too long.
Scripturally, there is a very strong case to be made for the absolute authority of the father. To nullify vows, reject a man who wanted to marry her even after they had sex, and yes to chastise his child.
But just because it is lawful according to God, does not mean it is profitable or wise to attempt.
What I'm trying to say is without a solid lifelong foundation and extremely strong ties binding a young woman to her father's leadership, there can not be any success in arranged marriages in western culture america. It just doesn't work, there is too much pressure from the world telling her she is her own person who can make her own decisions and screw whoever she wants whenever she wants, she's a bad boss B and doesn't need no man! The tide is rushing too fast to expect an emotional teenage young woman to think clearly and resist the cultural current without STRONG training from a very young age. Most people don't bother doing that. Or waited too long.
Scripturally, there is a very strong case to be made for the absolute authority of the father. To nullify vows, reject a man who wanted to marry her even after they had sex, and yes to chastise his child.
But just because it is lawful according to God, does not mean it is profitable or wise to attempt.
You've been very helpful, Nick and others, and I appreciate it. It doesn't have to be solved tonight.
To some of the others, my wife suggests we are talking at cross-purposes, and some sound like they are talking from a place of fear coming from trauma, real or imagined. But, you've angered me with your foolishness, so I will answer. In either case, I agree with this:
Truth is absolute. It might not hold up in a court of man, but it doesn't change.
That's why I'm here. I thought that was why we were all here. This is all I'm after: a solid understanding of the Word of God on this issue. If y'all want to talk about spanking 20yo girls over this, well, let's go light up the forum. Should be fun! But not here.
Also, I agree that there is danger. I'm not a willful idiot most of the time. The world today will eagerly cut us off and swallow our children if we give them half a chance. Raising them in the fear and admonition of the Lord will protect them, but not prevent that. Having the authority and having the power to exercise that authority are two different things, and we have pretty much lost all power. CPS will come right into your home and take your children away even over a false tip. But that's not what this discussion is about.
Man's law for many of you says if you take a second wife you should be punished, but that doesn't stop you, does it? The likelihood of that law being executed is near zero. Is that the reason why you appear confident in His Word on that issue but on the issue of a father's duty you tell me to think of whether it "works in real life"? It won't be long before acknowledging Jesus before men will come with severe consequences. What will you say then?
Let's just stick to the truth, brothers.
(Edited for clarity since I was talking to two different groups.)
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