Hard times are coming, unfortunately, but one of the upsides that I believe will come from it, is that families will, by necessity, return to God’s natural design for family. I believe we here at BF have been blessed with the opportunity to build large strong families ahead of the coming storm.
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Giving your daughter in marriage...
- Thread starter IshChayil
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Why would focusing on the failures of people who lived lives beyond our comprehension help you realize how low you are?
People accomplish what they focus on. Yes, Paul said that he was chief of sinners, but if that had stayed his focus, he would not have changed the world in the way that he did.
It’s good to be aware of our limitations, but our accomplishments are what builds the Kingdom.
I dare say that if you come to your job with an: “I’m not all that good” attitude, things wouldn’t work out all that well.
Well I’m raising mine that way...
Not really that: Good is good and bad is bad, but there are mitigating circumstances ie: the servant who is beaten with less strokes because of ignorance. I look at Laban like I look at real people, and if I were in his shoes, I might have done similar things. (Which is why I would take issue with him being labeled wicked, because the shoe fits too well
) If I'm being sober in my judgments, then for sure: Wicked Laban. But also Wicked Jacob, Wicked Rachel, Wicked Jonah, and Wicked Slumberfreeze. There are gradients of righteousness: Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they (Sodom and Samaria) are more righteous than thou
Jacob, by virtue of being chosen and taught of God has the advantage over Esau and Laban, just like the Redeemed have advantage over those who are not. But a sinner in his sin is less foul than an adulterous redeemed. Esau and Laban were not called by God, although even Laban in his wrath was careful to observe what God told him to do, and Esau put aside his justifiable wrath at his brother and welcomed him and his family in.
So I don't know if I'm making myself clear, I don't REALLY have a problem with Laban being wicked, but I recognize that the only real difference between he and the other side of the family is that God chose and justified they and not he. Jacob might have been chosen and Laban not, but at the end of the day if I had the opportunity to quit my job and be business partners with either Jacob or Laban, I would take a hard pass on both and show up to work on Monday morning.
So my comment about Laban was initially tongue in cheek, just saying that I can kind of see where he's coming from with imposing on Jacob a restriction. On the one hand Laban is a bad guy for imposing a limitation on Jacob's marriage. On the other hand the whole reason Jacob was Poly in the the first place was Laban looking after the welfare of both of his daughters. And Jacob's poly lifestyle is good, yeah?
It was Laban who greeted Jacob, kissed him and took him in when Jacob was at his lowest. It was Laban who insisted on paying Jacob for his work. It was Laban who gave Bilhah and Zilpah to his daughters, who also became Jacob's wives. When Laban says "I would have seen you off to the music of timbrels" I don't disbelieve him. It is difficult for me to call such a man wicked.
Not really that: Good is good and bad is bad, but there are mitigating circumstances ie: the servant who is beaten with less strokes because of ignorance. I look at Laban like I look at real people, and if I were in his shoes, I might have done similar things. (Which is why I would take issue with him being labeled wicked, because the shoe fits too well
There are gradients of righteousness: Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they (Sodom and Samaria) are more righteous than thou
Jacob, by virtue of being chosen and taught of God has the advantage over Esau and Laban, just like the Redeemed have advantage over those who are not. But a sinner in his sin is less foul than an adulterous redeemed. Esau and Laban were not called by God, although even Laban in his wrath was careful to observe what God told him to do, and Esau put aside his justifiable wrath at his brother and welcomed him and his family in.
So I don't know if I'm making myself clear, I don't REALLY have a problem with Laban being wicked, but I recognize that the only real difference between he and the other side of the family is that God chose and justified they and not he. Jacob might have been chosen and Laban not, but at the end of the day if I had the opportunity to quit my job and be business partners with either Jacob or Laban, I would take a hard pass on both and show up to work on Monday morning.
So my comment about Laban was initially tongue in cheek, just saying that I can kind of see where he's coming from with imposing on Jacob a restriction. On the one hand Laban is a bad guy for imposing a limitation on Jacob's marriage. On the other hand the whole reason Jacob was Poly in the the first place was Laban looking after the welfare of both of his daughters. And Jacob's poly lifestyle is good, yeah?
It was Laban who greeted Jacob, kissed him and took him in when Jacob was at his lowest. It was Laban who insisted on paying Jacob for his work. It was Laban who gave Bilhah and Zilpah to his daughters, who also became Jacob's wives. When Laban says "I would have seen you off to the music of timbrels" I don't disbelieve him. It is difficult for me to call such a man wicked.
And yet if you read Jasher it presents a different picture of Laban. One who had come to resent Jacob because God had blessed him more.
According to Jasher the reason Rachel took the idols was to keep Laban from divining thru them where Jacob had gone. Not because she wanted to worship them.
Jacob is painted as having been far more righteous than Laban.
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Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
My version doesn't say, but some are better than others
My version doesn't say, but some are better than others
@yoderfamily I gotta admit I haven't read Jasher except to skim through it briefly. What does it record about Jacob that paints him in a positive light, aside from comparison to Laban?
And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye say to my lord, to Esau, Thus says your servant Ya`aqov, Let not my lord imagine that my father's blessing with which he did bless me has proved beneficial to me. For I have been these twenty years with Lavan, and he deceived me and changed my wages ten times, as it has all been already told unto my lord. And I served him in his house very labouriously, and ELOHIYM afterward saw my affliction, my labour and the work of my hands, and he caused me to find grace and favour in his sight. And I afterward through ELOHIYM'S great mercy and kindness acquired oxen and asses and cattle, and menservants and maidservants. And now I am coming to my land and my home to my father and mother, who are in the land of Kena`an; and I have sent to let my lord know all this in order to find favour in the sight of my lord, so that he may not imagine that I have of myself obtained wealth, or that the blessing with which my father blessed me has benefited me. And those messengers went to Esau, and found him on the borders of the land of Edom going toward Ya`aqov, and four hundred men of the children of Se`iyr the Choriy were standing with drawn swords. YASHAR (JASHER) 32:2-7 את CEPHER
Neat! Thanks! btw what translation of Jasher do you use? I know there's different manuscripts that say different things and I've never put much time into finding out which is the 'proper' version.
At that time Ya`aqov's mother, Rivqah, sent her nurse Deborah the daughter of Uts, and two of Yitschaq's servants unto Ya`aqov. And they came to Ya`aqov to Haran and they said unto him, Rivqah has sent us to you that you shall return to your father's house to the land of Kena`an; and Ya`aqov hearkened unto them in this which his mother had spoken. At that time, the other seven years which Ya`aqov served Lavan for Rachel were completed, and it was at the end of fourteen years that he had dwelt in Haran that Ya`aqov said unto Lavan, give me my women and send me away, that I may go to my land, for behold my mother did send unto me from the land at Kena`an that I should return to my father's house. And Lavan said unto him, Not so I pray you; if I have found favour in your sight do not leave me; appoint me your wages and I will give them, and remain with me. And Ya`aqov said unto him, This is what you shall give me for wages, that I shall this day pass through all your flock and take away from them every lamb that is speckled and spotted and such as are brown amongst the sheep, and amongst the goats, and if you will do this thing for me I will return and feed your flock and keep them as at first. And Lavan did so, and Lavan removed from his flock all that Ya`aqov had said and gave them to him. YASHAR (JASHER) 31:22-27 את CEPHER
And Ya`aqov placed all that he had removed from Lavan's flock in the hands of his sons, and Ya`aqov was feeding the remainder of Lavan's flock. And when the servants of Yitschaq which he had sent unto Ya`aqov saw that Ya`aqov would not then return with them to the land of Kena`an to his father, they then went away from him, and they returned home to the land of Kena`an. And Deborah remained with Ya`aqov in Haran, and she did not return with the servants of Yitschaq to the land of Kena`an, and Deborah resided with Ya`aqov's women and children in Haran. And Ya`aqov served Lavan six years longer, and when the sheep brought forth, Ya`aqov removed from them such as were speckled and spotted, as he had determined with Lavan, and Ya`aqov did so at Lavan's for six years, and the man increased abundantly and he had cattle and maidservants and menservants, camels, and asses. And Ya`aqov had two hundred drove of cattle, and his cattle were of large size and of beautiful appearance and were very productive, and all the families of the sons of men desired to get some of the cattle of Ya`aqov, for they were exceedingly prosperous. And many of the sons of men came to procure some of Ya`aqov's flock, and Ya'aqov gave them a sheep for a man servant or a maid servant or for an ass or a camel, or whatsoever Ya`aqov desired from them they gave him. YASHAR (JASHER) 31:28-33 את CEPHER
And many of the sons of men came to procure some of Ya`aqov's flock, and Ya'aqov gave them a sheep for a man servant or a maid servant or for an ass or a camel, or whatsoever Ya`aqov desired from them they gave him. And Ya`aqov obtained riches and honour and possessions by means of these transactions with the sons of men, and the children of Lavan envied him of this honour. And in the course of time he heard the words of Lavan's sons, saying, Ya`aqov has taken away all that was our father's, and of that which was our father's has he acquired all this glory. And Ya`aqov beheld the countenance of Lavan and of his children, and behold it was not toward him in those days as it had been before. And YAHUAH appeared to Ya`aqov at the expiration of the six years, and said unto him, Arise, go forth out of this land, and return to the land of your birthplace and I will be with you. And Ya`aqov rose up at that time and he mounted his children and women and all belonging to him upon camels, and he went forth to go to the land of Kena`an to his father Yitschaq. YASHAR (JASHER) 31:33-38 את CEPHER
And Lavan did not know that Ya`aqov had gone from him, for Lavan had been that day sheep shearing. And Rachel stole her father's images, and she took them and she concealed them upon the camel upon which she sat, and she went on. And this is the manner of the images; in taking a man who is the firstborn and slaying him and taking the hair off his head, and taking salt and salting the head and anointing it in oil, then taking a small tablet of copper or a tablet of gold and writing the name upon it, and placing the tablet under his tongue, and taking the head with the tablet under the tongue and putting it in the house, and lighting up lights before it and bowing down to it. And at the time when they bow down to it, it speaks to them in all matters that they ask of it, through the power of the name which is written in it. And some make them in the figures of men, of gold and silver, and go to them in times known to them, and the figures receive the influence of the stars, and tell them future things, and in this manner were the images which Rachel stole from her father. And Rachel stole these images which were her father's, in order that Lavan might not know through them where Ya`aqov had gone. YASHAR (JASHER) 31:39-44 את CEPHER
And Lavan came home and he asked concerning Ya`aqov and his household, and he was not to be found, and Lavan sought his images to know where Ya`aqov had gone, and could not find them, and he went to some other images, and he inquired of them and they told him that Ya`aqov had fled from him to his father's, to the land of Kena`an. And Lavan then rose up and he took his brothers and all his servants, and he went forth and pursued Ya`aqov, and he overtook him in Mount Gil`ad. And Lavan said unto Ya`aqov, What is this you have done to me to flee and deceive me, and lead my daughters and their children as captives taken by the sword? And you did not suffer me to kiss them and send them away with joy, and you did steal my elohiym and did go away. And Ya`aqov answered Lavan, saying, Because I was afraid lest you would take your daughters by force from me; and now with whomsoever you find your elohiym he shall die. And Lavan searched for the images and he examined in all Ya`aqov's tents and furniture, but could not find them. YASHAR (JASHER) 31:45-50 את CEPHER
And Lavan said unto Ya`aqov, We will cut a covenant together and it shall be a testimony between me and you; if you shall afflict my daughters, or shall take other women besides my daughters, even ELOHIYM shall be a witness between me and you in this matter. And they took stones and made a heap, and Lavan said, This heap is a witness between me and you, therefore he called the name thereof Gil'ad. And Ya`aqov and Lavan offered sacrifice upon the mount, and they ate there by the heap, and they tarried in the mount all night, and Lavan rose up early in the morning, and he wept with his daughters and he kissed them, and he returned unto his place. And he hastened and sent off his son Be'or, who was seventeen years old, with Aviychoroph the son of Uts, the son of Nachor, and with them were ten men. And they hastened and went and passed on the road before Ya`aqov, and they came by another road to the land of Se`iyr. And they came unto Esau and said unto him, Thus says your brother and relative, your mother's brother Lavan, the son of Bethu'el, saying, YASHAR (JASHER) 31:51-56 את CEPHER
Have you heard what Ya`aqov your brother has done unto me, who first came to me naked and bare, and I went to meet him, and brought him to my house with honour, and I made him great, and I gave him my two daughters for women and also two of my maids. And ELOHIYM blessed him on my account, and he increased abundantly, and had sons, daughters and maidservants. He has also an immense stock of flocks and herds, camels and asses, also silver and gold in abundance; and when he saw that his wealth increased, he left me while I went to shear my sheep, and he rose up and fled in secrecy. And he lifted his women and children upon camels, and he led away all his cattle and property which he acquired in my land, and he lifted up his countenance to go to his father Yitschaq, to the land of Kena`an. And he did not suffer me to kiss my daughters and their children, and he led my daughters as captives taken by the sword, and he also stole my elohiym and he fled. And now I have left him in the mountain of the brook of Yabboq, him and all belonging to him; he lacks nothing. YASHAR (JASHER) 31:57-62 את CEPHER
If it be your wish to go to him, go then and there will you find him, and you can do unto him as your soul desires; and Lavan's messengers came and told Esau all these things. And Esau heard all the words of Lavan's messengers, and his anger was greatly kindled against Ya`aqov, and he remembered his hatred, and his anger burned within him. And Esau hastened and took his children and servants and the souls of his household, being sixty men, and he went and assembled all the children of Se`iyr the Choriy and their people, being three hundred and forty men, and took all this number of four hundred men with drawn swords, and he went unto Ya`aqov to smite him. And Esau divided this number into several parts, and he took the sixty men of his children and servants and the souls of his household as one head, and gave them in care of Eliyphaz his eldest son. And the remaining heads he gave to the care of the six sons of Se'iyr the Choriy, and he placed every man over his generations and children. And the whole of this camp went as it was, and Esau went amongst them toward Ya`aqov, and he conducted them with speed. YASHAR (JASHER) 31:63-68 את CEPHER
And Lavan's messengers departed from Esau and went to the land of Kena`an, and they came to the house of Rivqah the mother of Ya`aqov and Esau. And they told her saying, Behold your son Esau has gone against his brother Ya`aqov with four hundred men, for he heard that he was coming, and he is gone to make war with him, and to smite him and to take all that he has. And Rivqah hastened and sent seventy two men from the servants of Yitschaq to meet Ya`aqov on the road; for she said, Perchance, Esau may make war in the road when he meets him. And these messengers went on the road to meet Ya`aqov, and they met him in the road of the brook on the opposite side of the brook Yabboq, and Ya`aqov said when he saw them, This camp is destined to me from ELOHIYM, and Ya'aqov called the name of that place Machnayim. And Ya`aqov knew all his father's people, and he kissed them and embraced them and came with them, and Ya`aqov asked them concerning his father and mother, and they said, They were well. And these messengers said unto Ya`aqov, Rivqah your mother has sent us to you, saying, I have heard, my son, that your brother Esau has gone forth against you on the road with men from the children of Se`iyr the Choriy. YASHAR (JASHER) 31:69-74 את CEPHER
You can’t end it there! The suspense is killing me! Now i have to go dig up my copy to finish the story
My wife was 18 and I was 33 when she insisted that I marry her. She definitely knew what she wanted, but she also wasn't giving feminism her full attention. Being popular wasn't her first priority. I regularly thank her for her wisdom 32 years ago . . .My wife knew she wanted to be married by 21... lucky for her, I met her when she was 20 and married her 3 days before her 21st birthday
This is not only in Jasher, but in Targum Yonatan (Aramaic translation of the Tanakh). The Targum alludes to Laban's previous use of magic with the idols to kill a man.
I would be on board with my daughters marrying into a polygynous family.
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Are you daughters close to marrying age? Do you know other poly families with sons?
@patriarch777: Then refrain from any such suggestions until they are. I'll be completely up-front with you that people here would not hesitate to call the police on you if it became clear that you were arranging underage marriages for your daughters. Your focus on discussing arranged marriages is a serious concern given the age of your daughters. This ministry exists precisely to support people to behave properly in marriage, and not to engage in illegal behaviour.
I have no intention of marrying my daughters off while they are underage.
Revolting Man talking about us:
Oh my gosh!! We’re famous!!