Meat I kissed Joshua Harris good-bye

[Daniel DeLuca]

No. I did not say anything about making your wife happy. If you feel stuck it is because you are not happy, not your wife. Take responsibility for your own happiness and do not put it on the wife. She can't make you happy either. You have to do that yourself.

Godliness with contentment is great gain. - 1 Timothy 5:6

Be content with what God has blessed you with.

A wife may or may not make you happy, but you cannot deny the implications of what is taught in Proverbs. A wife most definitely cannot make you happy, but she most definitely CAN make a husband miserable, and she most definitely CAN contribute to the overall happiness of her husband. That is what is meant, when it says that she "Builds her house".

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

I have no issue with protecting, providing and leading. But happy? Happiness needs to take place as well. As men, we also want and need happiness. It’s part f our nature. There is an old saying, “If Momma ain’t happy....”

Although not biblically directed to make happy, why not strive to put that in the equation of a marriage? The Bible doesn’t tell me to drive a car, but I do. The Bible tells me to obey he laws. But, I can still go above and beyond the biblical directives. I don’t think God minds.

I would never argue that a man shouldn't strive to make his wife happy, but there are limits, and if that effort turns into a situation where she basically runs the show, you have an inverted paradigm, that goes against the structure that God has set forth.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

If I may be so bold; IT IS NOT A MAN’S RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE A WOMAN HAPPY. She is either happy because she chooses to be or isn’t.
I grew up in this environment of “gotta keep the wife happy” mentality. It’s degrading to a degree. It creates a power struggle. “I’m not happy, he must not love me”....
It’s about being one, leading, teaching, loving, and stewarding. Not making a person happy. There’s an ungodly fear in that dance and the tune can change on a whim.
Sure, doing things to contribute to ones happiness is a blessing to both parties.
This is from personal experience and my own opinion;
A woman that tears down those pillars is one who from the beginning had her own agenda, hasn’t been taught unity, loyalty, or selfless love. She’s been taught to destroy or threaten destruction to get what she wants (to get what will make her happy). She learned this either from her life before marriage or from her husband.

Wow! Well said!

 

[cnystrom]

A wife may or may not make you happy, but you cannot deny the implications of what is taught in Proverbs. A wife most definitely cannot make you happy, but she most definitely CAN make a husband miserable, and she most definitely CAN contribute to the overall happiness of her husband. That is what is meant, when it says that she "Builds her house".

No, I do not think the reference to "builds her house" is specifically about making her husband happy. And in any case that would be something for her to work on that you have no control over. There are no verses that say a wise husband makes his wife build her house.

You can not complain your way into a happy marriage. You can only control yourself.

The magic is if you concentrate on doing your job to the best of your ability, that is the best way to help your wife to do better with her responsibility. If you cheerfully build your portion of the house (a good framework) it is much easier for the wife to build her portion of the house.

I think it is pretty much a universal truth held that if you are not happy in your first marriage, a second wife will not solve your problem, nor does it glorify God. I can not think of any currently intact and happy polygamous families that started out this way. With God all things are possible, but that sounds like doing it the hard way.

You ignored my verse about contentment. Do you not believe that it is a universal Christian value to be content?

 

[cnystrom]

That's almost like a tu quoque fallacy. I am using an Anecdote to prove that in SOME cases, it is not really the husbands fault that there are marital problems, and I backed it up with Scripture., whereas Chris applied his anecdote in a more broad general, "this works for everyone" sense.

No. You said monogamists were "stuck" like they were powerless and you implied that polygamy gave men power to get unstuck. I did not discuss the issue of "fault" at all.

In my opinion if you are focused on fault and who is to blame you are already among the dangerous waters of the rocks and the shoals.

My point is that monogamist men still have the power (and responsibility) to make their marriages great. I was suggesting that this is something that can be learned and that until you learn to do that taking on more responsibility will not help you.

The better option is to learn the skill. Men can learn to be good husbands and Fathers and women can learn to love their husbands. It is not static and it is not hopeless. To paraphrase Trump: Make your marriage great again!

I do believe that looking at yourself first and handling your own responsibilities first is a Christian value and "works for everyone".

I do believe that discontent is a lie from Satan and harms everyone that indulges in it.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

I disagree on both points of the husband having the power and responsibility to make their marriage great. They have the responsibility to lead. If the wife refuses to follow, other women start looking more and more attractive to that man. That can serve as a wake-up call to his wife. You cannot be expected to make a marriage great when married to a woman who tears down her home. I know too many men who have been in that situation, and to say that it is their responsibility to make the marriage great, is implicitly placing the blame on them when it simply isn't!

You can believe that looking at yourself first, and handling your own responsibilities first works for everyone, but the anecdotal evidence I have, totally disproves that! It is not a matter of being discontented. It is a matter of realizing the disaster that a marriage has become as a result of trying to make her happy, and I know that many men like you have never had that experience, but it is very real. Trust me. I know!

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

No, I do not think the reference to "builds her house" is specifically about making her husband happy. And in any case that would be something for her to work on that you have no control over. There are no verses that say a wise husband makes his wife build her house.

You can not complain your way into a happy marriage. You can only control yourself.

The magic is if you concentrate on doing your job to the best of your ability, that is the best way to help your wife to do better with her responsibility. If you cheerfully build your portion of the house (a good framework) it is much easier for the wife to build her portion of the house.

I think it is pretty much a universal truth held that if you are not happy in your first marriage, a second wife will not solve your problem, nor does it glorify God. I can not think of any currently intact and happy polygamous families that started out this way. With God all things are possible, but that sounds like doing it the hard way.

You ignored my verse about contentment. Do you not believe that it is a universal Christian value to be content?

I am not saying that building her house will "make her husband happy". Read what I said! I said that it will contribute to the overall happiness of her husband. I completely agree that it is out of the husband's control, and it is something for her to work on, which seems to make what you said about it being the husband's responsibility to make the marriage great, seem contradictory.

I have NEVER argued that you can complain your way into a happy home, but finding another woman, who is a virtuous woman, will definitely jolt that foolish wife who has been tearing down her home, into reality.

There is no MAGIC! You lead. IF she follows, the roles in marriage work out the way they were designed. She follows Sarah as her role model. That is irresistible to her husband!

You can think all you want about happiness being a determining factor in whether it glorifies God, but I don't see where you get that from the Scriptures. God Himself was so unhappy with both Judah and Israel, that He divorced them, because of their unfaithfulness! That is not to say that you should take a second wife while unhappy with the first wife, but you should be able to make a better selection of wife, based on what you have learned to avoid in a wife. The other woman brings the foolish wife out of her fantasy world, and she learns to follow her husband's leadership, which will make her wise and make the marriage great.

Contentment has nothing to do with whether a marriage is great or not. It simply is NEVER placed on the husband, the burden of responsibility to make that happen. The virtuous woman in Prov 31, brings her husband good, not harm, all the days of his life. That is a fact, that ANY man can assess and evaluate accordingly.

 

[cnystrom]

I disagree on both points of the husband having the power and responsibility to make their marriage great. They have the responsibility to lead.

It seems sort of silly to advocate for leadership if there is 0% chance of success.

If the wife refuses to follow, other women start looking more and more attractive to that man. That can serve as a wake-up call to his wife.

Polygamy can be wonderful wakeup call for both husband and wife, but not because the wife feels threatened (or at least that should not be the reason). The reason it it can be a wonderful wakeup call if because you now have the opportunity to learn what God really requires of both the husband and the wife in a marriage. And we all know that following God is the only true way to success.

You cannot be expected to make a marriage great when married to a woman who tears down her home.

Yes you can. It is not the end of the story. You can grow and mature together and make things right.

I know too many men who have been in that situation, and to say that it is their responsibility to make the marriage great, is implicitly placing the blame on them when it simply isn't!

Again, you are focused on blame. I am focused on what is possible.

You can believe that looking at yourself first, and handling your own responsibilities first works for everyone, but the anecdotal evidence I have, totally disproves that!

So you are saying that you witnessed many men who were perfect representations of Christ towards the church, both in leadership and sacrifice, and they still had witches for wives who tore down their houses?

It is not a matter of being discontented

So are you saying these men who are "stuck" in unhappy marriages are perfectly content, or are you saying that contentment is not a Christian virtue? Or are you saying that God commands us to do something that we have no control over?

It is a matter of realizing the disaster that a marriage has become as a result of trying to make her happy,

Whose fault is this? Maybe try changing this and being a true leader and see if the marriage starts looking up?

It is like being a parent and being focused on giving your children everything they want and making them happy and then you are surprised that you end up with a spoiled child and you want to blame the child for it. No! The parent is responsible. Try changing your parenting first! Be a leader! Do your job! Fix it!

and I know that many men like you have never had that experience, but it is very real. Trust me. I know!

I appreciate the compliment, but my marriage today has not looked the way it does now for the past 35 years. What we have we have today we built by taking responsibility for it and building it together. It starts with getting on the same team and having goodwill for each other.

Only losers point fingers and blame. You can be a winner if you want to be.

 

[Phillip]

The other woman brings the foolish wife out of her fantasy world, and she learns to follow her husband's leadership, which will make her wise and make the marriage great.

Sounds like the beginnings of serial monogamy. I would advise caution. My Divorce cost me $2,000 a month in child support, while still buying clothes and other things for my kids. Seriously, I recommend you fix the broken parts of the current marriage. Seriously, no woman will look at a second wife as an example.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Sounds like the beginnings of serial monogamy. I would advise caution. My Divorce cost me $2,000 a month in child support, while still buying clothes and other things for my kids. Seriously, I recommend you fix the broken parts of the current marriage. Seriously, no woman will look at a second wife as an example.

My marriage is fine now. I had this issue early in our marriage, and couldn't get her to see the leaders in our Sunday School class, until I confessed about this other woman I admired, and did it ever work!

 

[cnystrom]

I have NEVER argued that you can complain your way into a happy home, but finding another woman, who is a virtuous woman, will definitely jolt that foolish wife who has been tearing down her home, into reality.

The reality is that a virtuous woman is also probably a sensible woman, and she is not going to want to join in one of the unhappy families you are describing. That is a reality.

There is no MAGIC! You lead. IF she follows, the roles in marriage work out the way they were designed. She follows Sarah as her role model. That is irresistible to her husband!

Good. Do it.

You can think all you want about happiness being a determining factor in whether it glorifies God, but I don't see where you get that from the Scriptures.

You are saying unhappy families glorify God?

God Himself was so unhappy with both Judah and Israel, that He divorced them, because of their unfaithfulness!

And that glorified God? That was a success story?

That is not to say that you should take a second wife while unhappy with the first wife, but you should be able to make a better selection of wife, based on what you have learned to avoid in a wife. The other woman brings the foolish wife out of her fantasy world, and she learns to follow her husband's leadership, which will make her wise and make the marriage great.

Do you know of any example where this has ever happened in the history of the planet?

Contentment has nothing to do with whether a marriage is great or not.

Please list some of the great discontented marriages of the Bible or history.

It simply is NEVER placed on the husband, the burden of responsibility to make that happen. The virtuous woman in Prov 31, brings her husband good, not harm, all the days of his life. That is a fact, that ANY man can assess and evaluate accordingly.

The whole point of Prov 31 is to point out to the husband what a rare and wonderful thing this women is for his appreciation. It is not to measure all women to this standard and to point out all of their shortcomings. I do not think this woman grew into the role because her husband complained her into it. And I doubt she started the marriage this way. Women reach this standard because they are built up to it.

 

[cnystrom]

Seriously, no woman will look at a second wife as an example.

Truth!

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

It seems sort of silly to advocate for leadership if there is 0% chance of success.



Polygamy can be wonderful wakeup call for both husband and wife, but not because the wife feels threatened (or at least that should not be the reason). The reason it it can be a wonderful wakeup call if because you now have the opportunity to learn what God really requires of both the husband and the wife in a marriage. And we all know that following God is the only true way to success.



Yes you can. It is not the end of the story. You can grow and mature together and make things right.



Again, you are focused on blame. I am focused on what is possible.



So you are saying that you witnessed many men who were perfect representations of Christ towards the church, both in leadership and sacrifice, and they still had witches for wives who tore down their houses?



So are you saying these men who are "stuck" in unhappy marriages are perfectly content, or are you saying that contentment is not a Christian virtue? Or are you saying that God commands us to do something that we have no control over?



Whose fault is this? Maybe try changing this and being a true leader and see if the marriage starts looking up?

It is like being a parent and being focused on giving your children everything they want and making them happy and then you are surprised that you end up with a spoiled child and you want to blame the child for it. No! The parent is responsible. Try changing your parenting first! Be a leader! Do your job! Fix it!



I appreciate the compliment, but my marriage today has not looked the way it does now for the past 35 years. What we have we have today we built by taking responsibility for it and building it together. It starts with getting on the same team and having goodwill for each other.

Only losers point fingers and blame. You can be a winner if you want to be.

It may seem silly, but the alternative is to cave in and kowtow to her demands, and I know how disastrous that can be.

"Together" is the operative word there. You cannot force your wife to follow you, but IF she does, as your wife has done, you will grow and mature together. If not, it will only lead to strife.

Whenever you claim that someone is responsible for something being done, when that something is not done, that person is inherently at fault, because they failed to carry out their responsibilities.

Since when is perfection expected of anyone?

God didn't command us to be content. Paul was using that in a context of the desire to gain riches, saying that those who desire to be rich, fall into many harmful snares. You are misapplying that verse.

And if the wife doesn't follow, she may just leave her husband. In that scenario, and if I were to go back in time and do that correctly, I would have said, "You are free to go, but to remarry is adultery. You are always free to return, even if I have remarried, which is not adultery, but as long as I am alive, if you marry another man, you will be committing adultery, and Scripture states that God will judge fornicators and adulterers". OK! I would have had I known then what I know now. That is what I advise men who are going through that, but in fact, a man in our orchestra, revealed to me that he and his wife were separated. I noticed one time that he made a joke that was demeaning to his wife, and she walked away, and I told him that if a joke is not funny to everyone, it is mean. They are back together, so being more Christlike may have healed their marriage somewhat, but he recently revealed to me that the only reason he has stayed with his wife, is because of what Scripture says about divorce.

Claiming that it is the husband's responsibility, is pointing fingers and blame. Scripture tells us where the responsibility for building a home, lies, but the church has unfortunately all too often ignored those Scriptures.

I am a winner, and I know I am.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

The reality is that a virtuous woman is also probably a sensible woman, and she is not going to want to join in one of the unhappy families you are describing. That is a reality.



Good. Do it.



You are saying unhappy families glorify God?



And that glorified God? That was a success story?



Do you know of any example where this has ever happened in the history of the planet?



Please list some of the great discontented marriages of the Bible or history.



The whole point of Prov 31 is to point out to the husband what a rare and wonderful thing this women is for his appreciation. It is not to measure all women to this standard and to point out all of their shortcomings. I do not think this woman grew into the role because her husband complained her into it. And I doubt she started the marriage this way. Women reach this standard because they are built up to it.

I never said that this virtuous woman should, although we know polygamy was quite common in the Old Testament and divorce was not so common.

I do do it.

Happiness in a marriage has very little to do with glorifying God. Loving your wife in spite of whatever misery she may bring your way, glorifies God. Don't put words in my mouth. The happiness of the home is not in the husbands control. His love that he shows for his wife, is. Those are two separate unrelated things. The manner in which He obeys God, brings honor and glory to Him.

Success in marriage is not what brings God glory. Obedience to Him is what brings Him glory. Judah and Israel were clearly at fault as those passages clearly state, and God is not a loser for pointing out who was to blame in that, "not so successful" marriage.

If you want an example of where that has worked, look no further than yours truly.

Abraham and Sarah had a rocky relationship with Hagar. Most marriages in the Bible, are found in the Old Testament. Guess what else is found in the Old Testament....wait for it.....wait for it.....Oh yeah...polygamy! Not so much discontentment there after all.

Where in Prov 31 does it say that the woman "grew into it"? It seems like you are interjecting your own personal opinion quite a bit, in this conversation.

 

[Phillip]

It seems like you are interjecting your own personal opinion quite a bit, in this conversation.

I might suggest, when a personal opinion is given by a Godly man, it’s not necessarily a bad thing. A Godly man usually uses his knowledge of scripture in giving advice. But, it’s always better when scripture is used to back things up.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Sounds like the beginnings of serial monogamy. I would advise caution. My Divorce cost me $2,000 a month in child support, while still buying clothes and other things for my kids. Seriously, I recommend you fix the broken parts of the current marriage. Seriously, no woman will look at a second wife as an example.

Hear, hear!

 

[steve]

If I may be so bold; IT IS NOT A MAN’S RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE A WOMAN HAPPY. She is either happy because she chooses to be or isn’t.
I grew up in this environment of “gotta keep the wife happy” mentality. It’s degrading to a degree. It creates a power struggle. “I’m not happy, he must not love me”....
It’s about being one, leading, teaching, loving, and stewarding. Not making a person happy. There’s an ungodly fear in that dance and the tune can change on a whim.
Sure, doing things to contribute to ones happiness is a blessing to both parties.
This is from personal experience and my own opinion;
A woman that tears down those pillars is one who from the beginning had her own agenda, hasn’t been taught unity, loyalty, or selfless love. She’s been taught to destroy or threaten destruction to get what she wants (to get what will make her happy). She learned this either from her life before marriage or from her husband.

Like X 100

 

[Paulsen]

I have no issue with protecting, providing and leading. But happy? Happiness needs to take place as well. As men, we also want and need happiness. It’s part f our nature. There is an old saying, “If Momma ain’t happy....”

Although not biblically directed to make happy, why not strive to put that in the equation of a marriage? The Bible doesn’t tell me to drive a car, but I do. The Bible tells me to obey he laws. But, I can still go above and beyond the biblical directives. I don’t think God minds.

No one can make anyone happy. A person decides to be humble, thus greatful, thus happy. The poorest can be happy. The grieving can be happy. The entitled and the arrogant cannot be happy.

 

[cnystrom]

I am a winner, and I know I am.

I am sorry. I apologize. It is not personal. I was saying that the hypothetical man who was miserable in his marriage and pointing fingers at his wife and blaming her for his problem is a loser, not you personally.

 

[Phillip]

No one can make anyone happy. A person decides to be humble, thus greatful, thus happy. The poorest can be happy. The grieving can be happy. The entitled and the arrogant cannot be happy.

You can make someone angry, you can make someone sad, you can make someone laugh. I’ll bet you could make someone happy. Try it.