Let’s play twister...

[Patrick Lauser]

I read it, here is what I got:

- she pulls the usual "historical extrabibilical context we recently discovered" to say that "Wives submit to your husbands" only means "Wives don't rule your husbands", proceeding with "the same goes for husbands"

- she says that "Submit to one another" rules out any hierarchy of authority: even the hierarchy mentioned immediately next (and perhaps especially that one, since I don't see her applying this to government)

- she confuses kindness and consideration with an absence of authority: the usual rebellious idea of this age, basically equating any authority with tyranny (except, of course, government, at least so long as it is socialist and secular...)

- she waxes buttery and sweet and blogmomish, all the while with an undertone of apologizing to the enlightened modern age for God's misunderstood, primitive crudeness of speech: "He's really on our side, though it may never sound like it. He means well."

 

[cnystrom]

A key point that she is missing is Ephesians 5:32. The husband wife relationship is to mimic the relationship between Christ and the Church,

"No longer is there any privileged party in marriage. (Gal. 3:28)

No longer do husbands serve their own self-interest before their wife’s.

No longer do wives serve their own self-interest before their husband’s.

No longer do husbands control their wives with a top-down authority.

No longer do women have dominance over their husbands."

Substitute Christ and the Church for husband and wife and which ones still makes sense and which ones do not?

 

[cnystrom]

Just read Zec's comment in the comment section. LOL.

 

[rockfox]

she says that "Submit to one another" rules out any hierarchy of authority

No one would say that of parent-child, master-slave, or employer-employee relationships; yet those are all also spoke on in that passage. This is the cardinal error of the churches interpretation of that long passage. Submit to one another doesn't mean the wife and husband mutually submit to one another. It is a heading for the whole section which lists a number of different ways in which people submit, none of which are mutually submissive relationships. The list is expansive enough that everyone is covered in some way or another as needing to submit.

 

[cnystrom]

So what does Ephesians 5:21 mean, then? I have my theory, but I would love to read what you think.

 

[rockfox]

So what does Ephesians 5:21 mean, then? I have my theory, but I would love to read what you think.

Is that a question to me?

 

[cnystrom]

Is that a question to me?

Anyone.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Judging by the context eph 5:21 means that God is telling us who submits to who, therefore submit to whom you are supposed to submit because God is commanding it.

 

[rockfox]

Judging by the context eph 5:21 means that God is telling us who submits to who, therefore submit to whom you are supposed to submit because God is commanding it.

Bingo. Essentially, 5:21 is a section introduction to several such kinds of submission relationships, and they all point 1 way. The modern church err's in misinterpreting the passage to mean mutual submission; which is an oxymoron.

 

[yoderfamily]

Bingo. Essentially, 5:21 is a section introduction to several such kinds of submission relationships, and they all point 1 way. The modern church err's in misinterpreting the passage to mean mutual submission; which is an oxymoron.

"Sighhh" if only my wife could see it that way....

 

[rockfox]

"Sighhh" if only my wife could see it that way....

When two people are at a disagreement over something, how do you decide? Someone must make the decision. Mutual submission won't get you there; not technically, it's a stalemate. In practice mutual submission is just code for getting men to surrender to their wive's wishes; to serve women. But God made man the head of the marriage, told wifie to obey him in the same way she ought to obey God. Man decides.

But thats a big fat logic pill most people won't swallow; not when they want to have their own way.

 

[Pacman]

"Sighhh" if only my wife could see it that way....

I would say this privately if I could but your profile won’t allow me to start a pm...

It’s your job to teach that to her. Full stop. You will answer to the father one day for how you lead your household. It takes hard work. Trust me I know. Been there done that. But it is a noble goal and it’s your job.

Ephesians 5:26-27 KJV
[26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, [27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

"Sighhh" if only my wife could see it that way....

It’s blatantly obvious that that is what eph 5 is talking about.


There seems to be this pervasive tendency among Christians today, to read scripture as if it’s just a bunch of catch phases. Almost nobody reads it in context.

 

[rockfox]

It’s blatantly obvious that that is what eph 5 is talking about.


There seems to be this pervasive tendency among Christians today, to read scripture as if it’s just a bunch of catch phases. Almost nobody reads it in context.

Don't underestimate the power of propaganda; in particular the affect redefining words and creating theologies that become the lens through which people read the Bible. It's not hard for someone to read the Bible and literally not see what is there due to what they've been taught.

But in this sort of case, where someone else can explain it rightly to you; such excuse evaporates. All that is left is the rebellious will.

 

[frederick]

It's not hard for someone to read the Bible and literally not see what is there due to what they've been taught.

Agree! That is exactly the case regarding PM being called adultery. In the bible adultery is predicated upon the marital status of the woman involved; never the man. But because adultery has been redefined, men are called adulterers for taking additional wives. Making sure people have correct definitions of words is essential for understanding the Bible.

 

[yoderfamily]

Don't underestimate the power of propaganda; in particular the affect redefining words and creating theologies that become the lens through which people read the Bible. It's not hard for someone to read the Bible and literally not see what is there due to what they've been taught.

But in this sort of case, where someone else can explain it rightly to you; such excuse evaporates. All that is left is the rebellious will.

With "other" men, pastor's promoting their teachings online and the ease of access for women to find something that aligns with their interpretation. And the belief that they are equal in Christ so that if the Holy Spirit tells them something different they are justified for not following their Head. I am not able to teach my wife anything.

I ordered the book The Them In Him which arrived while I wasn't home. She burned it because it was "evil". She admitted she shouldn't have burnt it and did order me another one. But refuses to go thru it with me. We did get as far as where numbers 30 was brought in then she refused to go any further. Claimed the book was Muslim doctrine. What can you do? Yet she is willing to study books other people recommend. I have tried to teach her. But she isn't satisfied with what she has. A very pervasive ailment in today's age.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

With "other" men, pastor's promoting their teachings online and the ease of access for women to find something that aligns with their interpretation. And the belief that they are equal in Christ so that if the Holy Spirit tells them something different they are justified for not following their Head. I am not able to teach my wife anything.

I would ask how she knows it’s the Holy Spirit speaking and not her own sinful heart.

 

[yoderfamily]

I would ask how she knows it’s the Holy Spirit speaking and not her own sinful heart.

Because she KNOWS. That's what resonates with her spirit.

I have a friend whose wife KNOWS he has slept with other women. So she doesn't have to submit to him because he hasn't confessed. Yet I'm confident he hasn't slept around since marriage. I'm rather frustrated with the whole current world interpretation of eph. 5 submit one to another.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Because she KNOWS. That's what resonates with her spirit.

Mmhmm, right...

I'm rather frustrated with the whole current world interpretation of eph. 5 submit one to another.

Haha, that’s because it’s absurd to read eph 5 and think that’s what it means...

Thinking clearly in an insane world won’t make you popular

 

[Pacman]

With "other" men, pastor's promoting their teachings online and the ease of access for women to find something that aligns with their interpretation. And the belief that they are equal in Christ so that if the Holy Spirit tells them something different they are justified for not following their Head. I am not able to teach my wife anything.

I ordered the book The Them In Him which arrived while I wasn't home. She burned it because it was "evil". She admitted she shouldn't have burnt it and did order me another one. But refuses to go thru it with me. We did get as far as where numbers 30 was brought in then she refused to go any further. Claimed the book was Muslim doctrine. What can you do? Yet she is willing to study books other people recommend. I have tried to teach her. But she isn't satisfied with what she has. A very pervasive ailment in today's age.

Don’t give her the choice! Does she at least acknowledge that it’s your responsibility for spiritual leadership? Either way tell her that you are studying it together and that if she refuses she is violating Ephesians 5:24 and rebelling against Yah. Dude it’s not loving to allow her to continue in sin. It may very well be time to start applying consequences for her behavior. If you don’t and Yah has to because you didn’t then those consequences will be far more harsh than what you would apply.