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Let’s play twister...

But so much more. The Holy Spirit is our teacher and helper.

“The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” John 14:25-26

Here, the Holy Spirit teaches us truth and guides us.

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth … He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.” John 16:12-14

Here, we are told to walk in the Spirit, but you already know that. The Holy Spirit will help us walk correctly before God.

“Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh … those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” Galatians 5:16-25

Personally, this last verse is the one I need to work on the most. Cause I don’t always get the flesh out of the way. I saw a Heritage Golden Eagle Archtop Guitar on eBay and almost sold my boat to get it. I’d say that comes under ‘Not’ crucifying my passions and desires. I’m a work in progress.
 
yoderfamily said:
If anything goes against her conscience or interpretation she goes her own way. Moreover she says because she has the Holy Spirit too that gives her authority too.
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The Holy Spirit will never contradict Scripture, else its another spirit.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
I would question what she thinks is the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit convicts our hearts of sin, and disobedience to the commandments of God is sin. She is listening to a different spirit.
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A few years ago I came to understand that I can't convince her of that. I am at peace with letting the Father deal with it. I will walk as he wants me to to the best of my understanding.
 
yoderfamily said:
Exactly. Now interpretation of Scripture. That's where the twister comes in.
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The three rules for sound biblical exegesis are, context, context, and context. Reading it in context like you would any other book and using clear passages to interpret unclear passages goes pretty far in dispelling private interpretations. Most of the time when there are disagreements it’s because one or both of those involved are ignoring one or both of those rules.
 
Pacman said:
@FollowingHim can you help with this?
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Already fixed as per @Verifyveritas76's instructions.

I have little to add to this conversation as I am fortunately not experienced in dealing with rebellious women, but am reading it with interest in the hope that I'll gain some insight in how to help a friend in an even worse situation. This is not at all uncommon, sadly.
 
I just sent this to a friend but I think it's likely valuable here as well.

2 Peter 3:15-17 KJV
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. [17] Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Peter warns us about those who would twist the words of Paul to their own destruction. This includes Ephesians 5:21

Basic “rule of thumb” when dealing with Paul’s writings is .... does my understanding of this passage conflict with clear principles taught elsewhere in scripture? If it does we are likely misunderstanding Paul. He is the only author in all of scripture that we are given a warning about his writings...

Using one verse from Paul to negate clearly established principles from the rest of scripture is the very definition of “proof texting” or “cherry picking”

1Peter 2:18 through 3:6

What is Peter telling women???
 
FollowingHim said:
This is not at all uncommon, sadly.
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To say the least. He's pretty much describing the average Christian wife; at least in the core attitude and presuppositions. Things like the book burning and pushback on spiritual head may not be super common, but they are what happen when a man tries to fulfill his God given responsibility to lead. It's her pushing back against it. Most Christian wives don't do those things because most Christian men don't attempt to lead.

Pacman said:
Basic “rule of thumb” when dealing with Paul’s writings is .... does my understanding of this passage conflict with clear principles taught elsewhere in scripture? If it does we are likely misunderstanding Paul. He is the only author in all of scripture that we are given a warning about his writings...
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Clearly. But also clearly logic will not convince a rebellious woman.

FollowingHim said:
I have little to add to this conversation as I am fortunately not experienced in dealing with rebellious women, but am reading it with interest in the hope that I'll gain some insight in how to help a friend in an even worse situation.
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These situations are not easy to advise; esp. from the outside. Real touch and go in the best case. You can't nice them into submission. You can't logic them into submission. You should demonstrate sacrificial love, but that won't do it either. But in the end what you must do is take back control by hook or crook. It'll take brass balls and steel in your spine.
 
rockfox said:
These situations are not easy to advise; esp. from the outside. Real touch and go in the best case. You can't nice them into submission. You can't logic them into submission. You should demonstrate sacrificial love, but that won't do it either.
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Don’t discount YHWH’s desires for your family. He is your head, the buck doesn’t stop with you. If you are walking with Him, expect that He has a plan and intends to assist in getting things on track. Of course neither of you can change her will arbitrarily, but trust that He wants to draw her to righteousness even more than you do.
The hard part is that His plan is often not readily recognizable and sometimes takes effect excruciatingly slowly. But in the end it produces the best results in each of you. We can see what she needs to change, but often it is both of us that He wants to change.
 
steve said:
Don’t discount YHWH’s desires for your family. He is your head, the buck doesn’t stop with you. If you are walking with Him, expect that He has a plan and intends to assist in getting things on track. Of course neither of you can change her will arbitrarily, but trust that He wants to draw her to righteousness even more than you do.
The hard part is that His plan is often not readily recognizable and sometimes takes effect excruciatingly slowly. But in the end it produces the best results in each of you. We can see what she needs to change, but often it is both of us that He wants to change.
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I'm with you man. God can work miracles. Turn drunk men sober. Release people from addictions. Change their motives in life. Work complete radical transformations in peoples lives in an instant.

But that has really troubled me for a long time. He can do those things, but for some reason He doesn't do them for Christian wives. Most of them seem to be in out right rebellion. In my own life my wife and I became Christians after marriage and her behavior grew worse after salvation, worse after she decided to practice submission.

The only answer I have been able to come up with is God wants us to be men, to lead our homes and be the patriarchs, to be strong and in charge. That requires us to think and act a certain way and so He requires us to make the changes in ourselves to bring our women to heel. He's not going to hand us a submissive wife on a platter; He did that once long ago with Adam, it didn't turn out well.

I don't know if that answer is true, but it's the only one I've got so far.

I don't know, maybe some wives are to be a thorn in the flesh of man. Many great men of faith throughout history have had difficult wives.

I'm reminded of the other side of the coin. Submission isn't easy for women, especially in our time. But it is especially hard for them if the man is not a strong leader. And what's God going to do about that?

What God can do and what He will do are two different things. But my responsibilities as a husband are the same either way.
 
YHWH working miracles in people’s lives is the exception, never the rule.

Think of the Israelites conquering the promised land. He did assist them with some miracles, but He required them to do the hard, dangerous, bloody work. He could have made it easy by sending a plague on the land that killed the humans, but He didn’t.
His plan was for them to go out from Egypt and take the land, but they failed to trust Him and they missed out.

Similarly, we all have promised lands in our lives that He plans for us to take, but if we focus on the negative He can’t help us conquer them
Yes, He will not override anyone’s will, but He will work with and help you.
Have I failed with a wife? Yes.
But that doesn’t define my family, and we grow stronger every day.
 
A person that I knew started smoking at a young age. At about 22 they went through a renewal and were miraculously delivered from the desire to smoke.
A couple of decades later they began smoking again. When they went to quit again they hoped that YHWH would assist them. Last I heard, He hasn’t.

Sometimes He makes it easy and sometimes He doesn’t.
 
rockfox said:
But that has really troubled me for a long time. He can do those things, but for some reason He doesn't do them for Christian wives.
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One thing is that in the English-speaking culture people love to talk about people who escape addictions. It it highly unpopular to talk about how a wife has learned to be reverent and obedient towards her husband, and it makes people uncomfortable to talk about it even if they are glad to hear it. So it makes the difference seem larger than it is.

But the difference is no doubt there, and that is no surprise. I would not attribute it to God, but to the English-speaking culture. Like no other pagan culture it thinks of itself and is thought of as "The Christian" culture, and even as Christianity itself, pagan as it is and has always been. Thus cultural things such as despising and rejecting the authority of the husband has the whole culture and its "Christianity complex" backing it. Unlike addictions, this rebellion is something that such people are hardwired to see as a good and "Christian" thing.
And applying this to God helping people change, those who are addicted usually want to change, whereas stubbornness and rebellion are defined by not wanting to change. God never changes people for them: they change, and their ability to do so comes from him.

Another thing is that like bullying and abuse against the weak is a common sin of men, rebellion and disdain against authority is a common sin of women, or something like that. People generally sin from the "point of view" they are placed in by God.

When it comes to the Holy Spirit, obviously we are never to go against our conscience in obeying any authority. But when people start attributing every feeling they are most in tune with to "conscience" and even to the Holy Spirit there is black danger.
This is what has disturbed me about how common it is in the English-speaking culture to say "God led me", "God laid it on my heart", "I was called", "God told me" often so flippantly. Someone can correct me, but it is my impression that no one in Scripture ever says such things except in regards to actual miracles, visions, and prophecy. God when he came to earth said to believe him because he did miracles. But many now seem to think everybody must simply accept what they say, and let them believe what they want if they think it is from God. But no, it has to be reasoned out. And if you want to ask others to treat it as the words of the Holy Spirit, biblically you would have to do a miracle. God is not a "feeling of rightness". Our senses must be exercised by use to discern good and evil.
 
I think Ezekiel 13, Jeremiah 13 & 23 are full of the men saying Peace Peace! And the Burden of the Lord.

(Just off the top of my head so may be the wrong passages)
 
Patrick Lauser said:
But when people start attributing every feeling they are most in tune with to "conscience" and even to the Holy Spirit there is black danger.
This is what has disturbed me about how common it is in the English-speaking culture to say "God led me", "God laid it on my heart", "I was called", "God told me" often so flippantly. Someone can correct me, but it is my impression that no one in Scripture ever says such things except in regards to actual miracles, visions, and prophecy. God when he came to earth said to believe him because he did miracles. But many now seem to think everybody must simply accept what they say, and let them believe what they want if they think it is from God. But no, it has to be reasoned out. And if you want to ask others to treat it as the words of the Holy Spirit, biblically you would have to do a miracle. God is not a "feeling of rightness". Our senses must be exercised by use to discern good and evil.
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You are right about that. It is pretty common for Christian women to attribute every feeling to God and won't blink an eye at claiming God wants them to do something that is quite clearly directly contrary to scripture. Or to conflate sin with anything they find disagreeable (and nothing they don't). And the gospel the American church preaches feeds right into that.

Patrick Lauser said:
One thing is that in the English-speaking culture people love to talk about people who escape addictions. It it highly unpopular to talk about how a wife has learned to be reverent and obedient towards her husband, and it makes people uncomfortable to talk about it even if they are glad to hear it. So it makes the difference seem larger than it is.
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You could be right. But my perspective wasn't based on what people talk about, but on observations of women and marriages on the ground.
 
Patrick Lauser said:
When it comes to the Holy Spirit, obviously we are never to go against our conscience in obeying any authority. But when people start attributing every feeling they are most in tune with to "conscience" and even to the Holy Spirit there is black danger.
This is what has disturbed me about how common it is in the English-speaking culture to say "God led me", "God laid it on my heart", "I was called", "God told me" often so flippantly. Someone can correct me, but it is my impression that no one in Scripture ever says such things except in regards to actual miracles, visions, and prophecy. God when he came to earth said to believe him because he did miracles. But many now seem to think everybody must simply accept what they say, and let them believe what they want if they think it is from God. But no, it has to be reasoned out. And if you want to ask others to treat it as the words of the Holy Spirit, biblically you would have to do a miracle. God is not a "feeling of rightness". Our senses must be exercised by use to discern good and evil.
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AGREED^^^

Yeshua used signs and wonders to authenticate direct revelation from God. The Apostles used signs and wonders (or rather Christ performed signs and wonders through them) to authenticate direct revelation. Now today people claim direct revelation, but with zero signs and wonders... makes one wonder. Claiming that God is telling you something or leading you somewhere that He isn’t, is, well, blasphemy. It’s dangerous and we are far too flippant about it.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
Claiming that God is telling you something or leading you somewhere that He isn’t, is, well, blasphemy. It’s dangerous and we are far too flippant about it.
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I think that you are a bit flippant with the use of the word blasphemy.
It would seem that the only safe position that you would offer is that we deny any leading of the Holy Spirit and totally walk by sight.
People are going to make mistakes, the enemy is going to fool us at times, but does YHWH want us to never accept a nudge from the HS just so that we can never possibly be wrong?
 
steve said:
I think that you are a bit flippant with the use of the word blasphemy.
It would seem that the only safe position that you would offer is that we deny any leading of the Holy Spirit and totally walk by sight.
People are going to make mistakes, the enemy is going to fool us at times, but does YHWH want us to never accept a nudge from the HS just so that we can never possibly be wrong?
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Speaking presumptuously for God carried the death penalty under God’s Law. It carries the same penalty as adultery and homosexuality. There’s nothing in the New Testament that had changed the definition of a false prophet. It’s that serious.



“But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.”

Deuteronomy 18:20c-22 | ESV
 
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