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Noahide laws - a dangerous deception

steve said:
Without knowing how they are interpreted, they seemed like a reasonable starting point.
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That's why they're so dangerous, they sound good on first glance.
Mojo said:
As to their veracity and age, I can't say for sure. However, it is my view that God didn't just magically reveal all of righteousness and morality on Mt. Sinai. It was mostly codified there and distilled specifically for a called out nation to show its uniqueness amongst the heathens.

As to the implementation and interpretation of Noahide now, I'm not well versed enough. Is it naive of me to think that God fearers prior to Sinai would have had some basic rules for Godly living prior? Are they all that unreasonable prior to Messiah?
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I agree that God certainly revealed at least some of His requirements prior to Sinai. But the "Noahide laws" are not that list of requirements. They are a deceptive substitute. They are an attempt by Rabbinical Judaism to claim authority to define the laws for all mankind, by making their own set of laws and then claiming that these are God's laws given to Noah.

We do not know what Noah was told. However the oldest document that claims to say what he was told, the Book of Jubilees, states:
Jubilees 7:20-28 said:
And in the twenty-eighth jubilee Noah began to enjoin upon his sons' sons the ordinances and commandments, and all the judgments that he knew, and he exhorted his sons to observe righteousness, and to cover the shame of their flesh, and to bless their Creator, and honour father and mother, and love their neighbour, and guard their souls from fornication and uncleanness and all iniquity. For owing to these three things came the flood upon the earth ... For whoso sheddeth man's blood, and whoso eateth the blood of any flesh, shall all be destroyed from the earth.
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I'd list that out as:
  1. Observe righteousness
  2. Wear clothing
  3. Bless the Creator
  4. Honour your father and mother
  5. Love your neighbour
  6. Avoid fornication, uncleanness and iniquity
  7. Don't murder
  8. Don't eat blood
Compare that to the Talmudic "Noahide laws":
  1. Not to worship idols.
  2. Not to curse God.
  3. To establish courts of justice.
  4. Not to commit murder.
  5. Not to commit adultery, bestiality, or sexual immorality.
  6. Not to steal.
  7. Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
Jubilees is far closer to Christianity, far more personal, and far less legalistic. It is a set of positive instructions, not a set of laws to be enforced by external courts. Love your neighbour. Do what is "righteous" not "iniquity" - not fully defined, more of a "follow your conscience" instruction here. Honour parents. Wear clothing. These are positive, personal instructions. While the Talmudic laws are quite different, being phrased as a legal code that is to be enforced globally through "courts of justice".

The Noahide laws are a deceptive substitution.
 
FollowingHim said:
That's why they're so dangerous, they sound good on first glance.

I agree that God certainly revealed at least some of His requirements prior to Sinai. But the "Noahide laws" are not that list of requirements. They are a deceptive substitute. They are an attempt by Rabbinical Judaism to claim authority to define the laws for all mankind, by making their own set of laws and then claiming that these are God's laws given to Noah.

We do not know what Noah was told. However the oldest document that claims to say what he was told, the Book of Jubilees, states:

I'd list that out as:
  1. Observe righteousness
  2. Wear clothing
  3. Bless the Creator
  4. Honour your father and mother
  5. Love your neighbour
  6. Avoid fornication, uncleanness and iniquity
  7. Don't murder
  8. Don't eat blood
Compare that to the Talmudic "Noahide laws":
  1. Not to worship idols.
  2. Not to curse God.
  3. To establish courts of justice.
  4. Not to commit murder.
  5. Not to commit adultery, bestiality, or sexual immorality.
  6. Not to steal.
  7. Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
Jubilees is far closer to Christianity, far more personal, and far less legalistic. It is a set of positive instructions, not a set of laws to be enforced by external courts. Love your neighbour. Do what is "righteous" not "iniquity" - not fully defined, more of a "follow your conscience" instruction here. Honour parents. Wear clothing. These are positive, personal instructions. While the Talmudic laws are quite different, being phrased as a legal code that is to be enforced globally through "courts of justice".

The Noahide laws are a deceptive substitution.
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I have not seen the Jubilees list before, so will have to take a closer look. I do find it interesting that several connect very well with Acts 15 as minimum requirements....
 
#3 is the MO of enforcement, but is there a problem with the other 6?

Help me understand. #3 is the objection, not just the negative tone of the others, correct?

While we're at it, is there a reason/purpose for the last Noahide command?
 
Mojo said:
#3 is the MO of enforcement, but is there a problem with the other 6?

Help me understand. #3 is the objection, not just the negative tone of the others, correct?

While we're at it, is there a reason/purpose for the last Noahide command?
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The objections are several, not the least of which is the judicial authority with capital offense capabilities. Other objections include the requirement to deny Yeshua, rooted in #1 and the fact that this 'substitute ' set of laws is specifically set forth the prevent access to or interpretation of all Scripture. According to those who promote this, that responsibility belongs only to the rabbis.

Understand, this is not the some view of Judaism, but it is a dominant view among the ultra conservative and is well advanced, even into high level government circles. It has been written into our own laws here in the US...
 
rockfox said:
How so?
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I think it was in the article I posted. It is currently acknowledged but not a legal code... but, the fact that it has been there for 20+ years, creates an easier transition if/when tine cones.
 
PeteR said:
I think it was in the article I posted. It is currently acknowledged but not a legal code... but, the fact that it has been there for 20+ years, creates an easier transition if/when tine cones.
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Okay.. just reviewed and didn't see what I know I've seen before... I'll see if I can find it...
 
PLEASE UNDERSTAND...

This topic is inflammatory and does NOT reflect the thoughts or opinions of all or even a majority of Jews. The discussion should not be construed as antisemitic but a legitimate discussion of a concerning topic/aspect within ultra religious circles that potentially has very negative consequences for any who do not submit by denying Yeshua... be reminded, God loves us all and the Lion of Judah desires their hearts, too.


https://www.congress.gov/bill/102nd-congress/house-joint-resolution/104/text

And an opinion piece,m on a blog found in web search: https://www.opdeepstate.com/2018/07/15/the-noahide-laws/
 
This is a very interesting thread. Thank you @FollowingHim for this info.

I am definitely one who has mentioned the Noahide laws in the forum. For the record, I’m not referring to this form of them but rather to the biblical list.

One thing that is missing from the biblical list above is the ability to eat anything that moves.

I find the progression/ evolution of the dietary laws to be as follows.

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Genesis 6:21. And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

Those were the dietary restrictions pre flood. After the flood, you can find the following restrictions and additions to the dietary restriction.

Genesis 9:3,4 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

So pre flood, animals and man ate vegetarian, post flood Noah and his progeny were allowed by God to eat anything that moves, as long as it’s not still moving/living.
 
PeteR said:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/102nd-congress/house-joint-resolution/104/text
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Text:

--H.J.Res.104--
H.J.Res.104
One Hundred Second Congress of the United States of America
AT THE FIRST SESSION
Begun and held at the City of Washington on Thursday, the third day of January,
one thousand nine hundred and ninety-one
Joint Resolution
To designate March 26, 1991, as `Education Day, U.S.A.'.
Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and
principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great
Nation was founded;
Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society
from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide Laws;
Whereas without these ethical values and principles the edifice of civilization
stands in serious peril of returning to chaos;
Whereas society is profoundly concerned with the recent weakening of these
principles that has resulted in crises that beleaguer and threaten the fabric
of civilized society;
Whereas the justified preoccupation with these crises must not let the citizens
of this Nation lose sight of their responsibility to transmit these historical
ethical values from our distinguished past to the generations of the future;
Whereas the Lubavitch movement has fostered and promoted these ethical values
and principles throughout the world;
Whereas Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Lubavitch movement,
is universally respected and revered and his eighty-ninth birthday falls on
March 26, 1991;
Whereas in tribute to this great spiritual leader, `the rebbe', this, his
ninetieth year will be seen as one of `education and giving', the year in
which we turn to education and charity to return the world to the moral and
ethical values contained in the Seven Noahide Laws; and
Whereas this will be reflected in an international scroll of honor signed by
the President of the United States and other heads of state: Now, therefore,
be it
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of
America in Congress assembled, That March 26, 1991, the start of the ninetieth
year of Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, leader of the worldwide Lubavitch movement,
is designated as `Education Day, U.S.A.'. The President is requested to issue
a proclamation calling upon the people of the United States to observe such
day with appropriate ceremonies and activities.
Speaker of the House of Representatives.
Vice President of the United States and
President of the Senate.
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Purely symbolic. But it really shows the extent of their influence over US politics.

The bolded part, highly doubtful that's even true.

But who's ever heard of the Lubavitch movement? I guess it's not called Chabad, which I have heard of, but few outside Jewish circles will have.

BTW, the favicon on that page is supposed to be the Capital building, but looks an aweful lot like something else.
 
Here’s something interesting regarding the antiquity of the laws of Noah for Gentiles. From the book, Gad the Seer that I have referred to previously. Apologies for the length.

9. King Hiram of Tyre
Between 2908-2924 AM, 1017-1001 BC
1Hiram king of Tyre sent messengers unto David saying: 2“ I know that the LORD your God is the one true God, so now deal with me as a true brother and teach me the Law of your God, for I will worship Him all the days of my life.” 3Then the messengers came to David with an offering in their hands for the LORD and for David. They told him everything that Hiram had said and presented him with the offerings. 4And David replied to Hiram: 5“ Go and tell my brother, Hiram: ‘This is what David, your brother, says: ‘Reverence the LORD, creator of heaven and fire, the sea and the earth, the wet and the dry, the heat and the cold, the mineral and the vegetation, the living and the speaking, 6the planets, the Pleiades and Orion, the sun and the moon, the substantial and the spiritual, the wandering stars, the senses, and everything. 7These were all created without a blemish by El Shaddai whose name is Yahweh. 8If you do this and observe the commandments that were ordered to the children of Noah [Noahide Laws], your father, then God will bless you all the days of your life. 9We are both His allies; but we are different from you by the Law of truth, sealed by the seal of Shaddai, called children of the true God. 10We must therefore obey the whole Law that HaShem commands of us, saying: ‘And you shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak unto the children of Israel.’ Exodus 19: 6 11But He has not dealt the same way with any other nation as He has with us. He did not choose us for any other reason than the great love that He has for us [by grace not works].” 12The messengers then returned to Hiram their king and told him everything that King David had told them. 13And Hiram rejoiced with all his heart and called all his princes and servants and said to them: 14“ Tyrians and Sidonians, listen carefully to what I am about to tell you. 15Have reverence and respect for El Shaddai, who is the God of Israel. He made everything by speaking and by the breath of His mouth; and who will tell Him what He can do? For He is one. 16Repeat after me: ‘Blessed is the LORD God of Israel who chooses His people, and blessed is David, His servant, king of His people, and blessed is Israel whom the LORD has chosen to be His inheritance. 17We would be blessed to simply be the servants of the children of Israel that are called children of the LORD, their God.’” 18And all his princes and his servants replied: “Amen, may it be so.” 19And Hiram lifted up his voice and said: “I have seen, but not now, I have beheld, but not nigh: there shall step forth a sun from David, and a moon shall rise out of the house of Judah, and shall smite all the children of Ham, and break down all the children of Japheth, and he will possess all the kingdoms of the world.” Variant of Numbers 24: 17-18 And who is like the LORD, God above all gods? 20And who is like Israel a people above the nations? May our end be like theirs.” 21When the LORD heard what Hiram had said, He was very pleased with him. 22And the LORD said unto Gad, the seer of David: 23“ Go unto my servant and tell him the message that I gave you.” 24And Gad, the one in whose hand was the word of the LORD, came to David, and said, “Thus says the LORD God of Hosts: ‘I have heard what Hiram, king of Tyre, has said and what his princes and servants have said, and I am very pleased. 25Therefore I will give him and his people a heart of wisdom and understanding to prepare My house where I shall put My name, and that will cause his kingdom to grow, for I have chosen them and will not reject them.’” 26And David said to Gad: “Now I know that the LORD our God rewards all His creatures and all the works He has created with goodness, because He is a God of mercy, who dwells on high and looks after the lowly, and whoever is banished will not remain an outcast from Him. Blessed be the LORD forever; Amen, and Amen. 27For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward them that fear Him and towards His works. 28Bless the LORD, all you His works, in all His places of His dominion. Bless the LORD, O my soul. Hallelujah.”

Notice that in the mention of the commandments that were given to the children of Noah, there is no mention of 7 laws, just the laws commanded to Noah and his children.
 
PeteR said:
The objections are several, not the least of which is the judicial authority with capital offense capabilities. Other objections include the requirement to deny Yeshua, rooted in #1 and the fact that this 'substitute ' set of laws is specifically set forth the prevent access to or interpretation of all Scripture. According to those who promote this, that responsibility belongs only to the rabbis.

Understand, this is not the some view of Judaism, but it is a dominant view among the ultra conservative and is well advanced, even into high level government circles. It has been written into our own laws here in the US...
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I am not asking about how they are interpreted, or how they would be implemented. I'm not a proponent of them either. I'm just curious as to what (as they are written) is so objectionable?

No idolatry?
No murder?
No sexual immorality?
Etc.

Without knowing how their proponents are promoting them, what parts could be picked apart (besides 3, and possibly 6)?

I'm not so sure that congressional proclamation from 1991 means much. Legislators do that kind of thing for constituents all the time. I've seen plenty of "whereas this and whereas that" have been written on city and state proclamations for churches and schools or other things to put into the official records that such and such a person or organization is being officially recognized, but not necessarily endorsed by the bigwigs. You are free to interpret it as you please, though.
 
After looking at these things from Jubilees, I find myself a little bit troubled.
1) "cover the shame of their flesh". I've not seen anything like that in Moses, or anywhere else. It sounds like "modesty", which was a big deal in the ¿apparitions? at Fatima.
2) "guard their souls from fornication". I've seen anything indicating that fornication is a codified sin (ie; Thou shalt not), and indeed the idea seems to conflict with Moses; "If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife." (Exo 22:16). Maybe the Jubilees-original is better rendered as "sexual immorality", but then I wonder what other questionable translations are in the English text.
 
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eye4them said:
After looking at these things from Jubilees, I find myself a little bit troubled.
1) "cover the shame of their flesh". I've not seen anything like that in Moses, or anywhere else. It sounds like "modesty", which was a big deal in the ¿apparitions? at Fatima.
2) "guard their souls from fornication". I've seen anything indicating that fornication is a codified sin (ie; Thou shalt not), and indeed the idea seems to conflict with Moses; "If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife." (Exo 22:16). Maybe the Jubilees-original is better rendered as "sexual immorality", but then I wonder what other questionable translations are in the English text.
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Fornication is one ofbmy favorite drums. It simply means sexual immorality and never sex before marriage.
 
Mojo said:
I am not asking about how they are interpreted, or how they would be implemented. I'm not a proponent of them either. I'm just curious as to what (as they are written) is so objectionable?

No idolatry?
No murder?
No sexual immorality?
Etc.

Without knowing how their proponents are promoting them, what parts could be picked apart (besides 3, and possibly 6)?

I'm not so sure that congressional proclamation from 1991 means much. Legislators do that kind of thing for constituents all the time. I've seen plenty of "whereas this and whereas that" have been written on city and state proclamations for churches and schools or other things to put into the official records that such and such a person or organization is being officially recognized, but not necessarily endorsed by the bigwigs. You are free to interpret it as you please, though.
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I think a big part of the problem lies in ones definition of the terms. Until Yeshua himself sits on the throne we will continue to be ruled by fallen man. So if these laws become the law of the land (or world) what happens when Muslims have the government? How do you think they will define idolatry? What happens when Protestants have the government? How do you think they will define fornication? These laws are extremely dangerous. Many of them are not the kind of things that civil governments should have any power over! The punishment for breaking these laws is beheading that’s how it’s clearly spelled out.
 
Pacman said:
I think a big part of the problem lies in ones definition of the terms. Until Yeshua himself sits on the throne we will continue to be ruled by fallen man.
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I believe this is true of all government. What I'm trying to say is that the laws as they are written are pretty simple and not necessarily unChristian.

How they are interpreted and implemented is the problem. I've heard some Christian folks describe our Constitution and secular government in the same way.

I'm a flag waiving American who feels like we have the best system on Earth until Christ returns. It's not the Constitution, it's the fallen men who interpret it and enforce their bastardization of it.
 
As I said earlier @Mojo, as written, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the summary version of the laws - which is why they are so dangerous, they are easy to accept because they sound ok. The problem is the interpretation of them. As these laws originate in the Talmud and are promoted by Rabbis, they must be interpreted according to Talmud by rabbinical authorities. And in the interpretation, Christianity (not just including, but especially, torah-observent Christianity) is punishable by beheading.

And that all aligns concerningly well with clear Biblical prophecies about being "dragged before synagogues" and "beheaded" for following Christ.

The problem with the US law is that it is not just one law from back in 1991, but is formally reaffirmed every year by every president, on "education day", a day established to formally memorialise and officially honour a particular Jewish teacher with some rather concerning views. Still somewhat informal - but set up in such a way that they become continually spoken into the philosophy and culture of US presidents and other lawmakers, so that your government itself eventually comes to accept these as being the underlying religious & moral principles behind your own constitution and see implementing them as a patriotic act. It's a very sneaky move of historical revisionism that is far more significant than it appears on the surface - just like the laws themselves.
 
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