Noahide laws - a dangerous deception

[FollowingHim]

The Talmud has some worth and some context and even some truth but it needs to be reserved for the very mature scholar, one who is rock solid in his faith.

Just like the Quran. I'd put them in a similar category to each other.

When was the last time a Jew beheaded any one?

Maybe they haven't for a long time. Maybe they never will. However, I think it would be unwise to ignore the frequent, repeated warnings in the New Testament that the followers of Jesus would be beaten / scourged "in the synagogues" (e.g. Matthew 10:17, 23:34, Mark 13:9, Luke 21:12). We have very clear and repeated prophecy in the New Testament that the church will be persecuted by the Jews.

Now, it is quite possible those prophecies only applied for the few decades between Christ's death and the destruction of Jerusalem, were entirely fulfilled then and are now irrelevant so can be ignored. But it is also entirely possible that many other prophecies the church as a whole tends to preach from as relating to the upcoming end times were also actually fulfilled during that period and are not relevant either (e.g. Mark 13:14-20). If we are to say Mark 13:9 is irrelevant, then we better also say 14-20 is irrelevant - and if we are not willing to do that and believe it will have a second fulfilment, we must remain open to the possibility that v9 will also have a second fulfilment.

Enforcement of the Noachide laws is a potential way that key prophetic warnings we have been given may be fulfilled. Of course, they may not be fulfilled in this way. But it is wise to be cautious and be prepared for, and even work against if the opportunity arises, any possibility of this occurring.

 

[MeganC]

Enforcement of the Noachide laws is a potential way that key prophetic warnings we have been given may be fulfilled. Of course, they may not be fulfilled in this way. But it is wise to be cautious and be prepared for, and even work against if the opportunity arises, any possibility of this occurring.

Unless the crazy ultra Orthodox Jews take control of Judaism I don't think we need to worry about this. Hate to say but most Jews are like most Christians and while they may attend services they don't really believe in their faith.

There's probably more Christians who care about some of the Jewish traditions than there are Jews who care about them. And that's sad.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Just like the Quran. I'd put them in a similar category to each other.

Maybe they haven't for a long time. Maybe they never will. However, I think it would be unwise to ignore the frequent, repeated warnings in the New Testament that the followers of Jesus would be beaten / scourged "in the synagogues" (e.g. Matthew 10:17, 23:34, Mark 13:9, Luke 21:12). We have very clear and repeated prophecy in the New Testament that the church will be persecuted by the Jews.

Now, it is quite possible those prophecies only applied for the few decades between Christ's death and the destruction of Jerusalem, were entirely fulfilled then and are now irrelevant so can be ignored. But it is also entirely possible that many other prophecies the church as a whole tends to preach from as relating to the upcoming end times were also actually fulfilled during that period and are not relevant either (e.g. Mark 13:14-20). If we are to say Mark 13:9 is irrelevant, then we better also say 14-20 is irrelevant - and if we are not willing to do that and believe it will have a second fulfilment, we must remain open to the possibility that v9 will also have a second fulfilment.

Enforcement of the Noachide laws is a potential way that key prophetic warnings we have been given may be fulfilled. Of course, they may not be fulfilled in this way. But it is wise to be cautious and be prepared for, and even work against if the opportunity arises, any possibility of this occurring.

I read an entire Quran translation once and it was eye opening.

 

[Keith Martin]

Same here. 'Translations' seems be my theme this morning, but the Quran exemplifies the problem with accepting at face value any work with meaning that was translated from an entirely different language. Islam very purposefully produces English-translation Qurans that just as purposefully excise key passages that they know Westerners would consider offensive -- and gives their members permission to straight up lie to People of the Book (Jews and Christians) about what is really in the Quran. That, in and of itself, sounds eerily similar to aspects of the Talmud.

 

[FollowingHim]

Just bumping this up into the recent posts list as it may be of interest to @Rocky.

 

[Rocky]

Just bumping this up into the recent posts list as it may be of interest to @Rocky.

Mr, following him,just wanted to say I'm not a sticular for the term Noahide, didn't mean to affend anyone. Maybe I should use the term like some do ,Abrahamic faith! It's evident the people before the flood knew G-d's will or they wouldn't have been held guilty,after the flood,one more was added. After Abraham we see his faith in following G-d, by the way he was a practicing Polagamist! So put me in the Line of Abraham, I'm sorry if I affended! Throwing one more thing out, I think the negative attitude towards sex ,really started in the second temple period,before full birth of Christianity,really in one of the branches of Judaism!

 

[Rocky]

Should read more like, and also Abraham was a practicing Polagamist,that we all think is scriptural!

 

[FollowingHim]

You didn't offend anyone @Rocky. We are all on a journey of discovering the truth about God. Your journey had led you to identify yourself using the term Noahide. I brought this discussion to your attention because I thought it was important information for you to be aware of - not because I was upset with you, quite the opposite, because I care about you. The term "Noahide" doesn't mean what you thought it means, and is a Jewish invention designed to bring the Gentile world in submission to Judaism. I would suggest choosing a different word to describe what you believe, if you are not following the cult that uses that name. Just as someone who feels their mission in life is to "witness about Jehovah" probably shouldn't call themselves a Jehovah's Witness as that name is already taken and means something very specific!

 

[PeteR]

Mr, following him,just wanted to say I'm not a sticular for the term Noahide, didn't mean to affend anyone. Maybe I should use the term like some do ,Abrahamic faith! It's evident the people before the flood knew G-d's will or they wouldn't have been held guilty,after the flood,one more was added. After Abraham we see his faith in following G-d, by the way he was a practicing Polagamist! So put me in the Line of Abraham, I'm sorry if I affended! Throwing one more thing out, I think the negative attitude towards sex ,really started in the second temple period,before full birth of Christianity,really in one of the branches of Judaism!

Have you considered the possibility that Yah's Torah (instructions) existed before the fall? And, possibly before Creation? I think there are strong defenses for both positions, I hold the latter, but as you state, something had to be in place for Yah to judge the earth at the time of Noach.

Personally, my thoughts in this area began with noticing that Cain and Abel brought two different sacrifices and specifically, Abel brought of the firstlings of his flock and their fat portions... How did he know? Who told him? Back up to the blood sacrifice Yah offered when Adam and Chava sinned? Why? Did the Torah/Yah's standard already exist?

If we consider that Yeshua is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth, then the standard by which He (and we) was judged had to exist prior to Creation.

Thoughts?

 

[Rocky]

Have you considered the possibility that Yah's Torah (instructions) existed before the fall? And, possibly before Creation? I think there are strong defenses for both positions, I hold the latter, but as you state, something had to be in place for Yah to judge the earth at the time of Noach.

Personally, my thoughts in this area began with noticing that Cain and Abel brought two different sacrifices and specifically, Abel brought of the firstlings of his flock and their fat portions... How did he know? Who told him? Back up to the blood sacrifice Yah offered when Adam and Chava sinned? Why? Did the Torah/Yah's standard already exist?

If we consider that Yeshua is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth, then the standard by which He (and we) was judged had to exist prior to Creation.

Thoughts?

I think the Rabbi's say the Torah goes back to the very beginning of Creation,don't they?? G-d has perfect foreknowledge so he knew the future,there had to be a law or how could there be guilt, so you have destruction in the flood! The first Commandment to Adam and Eve is Torah ,in my opinion. So the argument goes that there was 6 laws before the flood that was revealed to all Mankind then one after total of 7 for general Mankind . The 7 would have been the ones Abraham was working off of, till he was called to circumcision and make a nation ,but you know all these things already. I really didn't come to this site to be contintious about doctrine,I just wanted to learn what I could and offer any help to families along the lines of farming and homesteading. If my personal beliefs are a problem I would gladly quit coming to the site and not make any comments anymore. I fully understand if you are protecting your doctrine hear and I definitely did not come to disturb it! Please advise me where I stand?

 

[NickF]

I really didn't come to this site to be contintious about doctrine,I just wanted to learn what I could and offer any help to families along the lines of farming and homesteading. If my personal beliefs are a problem I would gladly quit coming to the site and not make any comments anymore. I fully understand if you are protecting your doctrine hear and I definitely did not come to disturb it! Please advise me where I stand?

I speak for myself but I’ve been here long enough and read enough posts to speak with some experience. We all love any brother or sister in Christ who comes here asking questions and wanting to learn.

I’d be shocked if anybody had a problem with you asking questions or speaking your viewpoint.

Please don’t leave just because someone challenges your perspective.

I’ve been challenged on mine and it’s been done in love.

I’ve reassessed my thoughts and ideas, compared them to scripture and adjusted as needed. We all get stuff wrong so don’t ever assume people are trying to run you off or badmouth you.

There’s a wonderful community of believers here devoted to iron sharpening iron. I think it’s a deep breath of fresh air and an awesome fellowship.

 

[Keith Martin]

Don't run off, @Rocky -- keep the gloves up.

I can't imagine there is any place on Earth where any man can find full agreement.

 

[PeteR]

I think the Rabbi's say the Torah goes back to the very beginning of Creation,don't they?? G-d has perfect foreknowledge so he knew the future,there had to be a law or how could there be guilt, so you have destruction in the flood! The first Commandment to Adam and Eve is Torah ,in my opinion. So the argument goes that there was 6 laws before the flood that was revealed to all Mankind then one after total of 7 for general Mankind . The 7 would have been the ones Abraham was working off of, till he was called to circumcision and make a nation ,but you know all these things already. I really didn't come to this site to be contintious about doctrine,I just wanted to learn what I could and offer any help to families along the lines of farming and homesteading. If my personal beliefs are a problem I would gladly quit coming to the site and not make any comments anymore. I fully understand if you are protecting your doctrine hear and I definitely did not come to disturb it! Please advise me where I stand?

Bro, I wasn't being contentious. Lighten up...

Your post does reveal though that you do understand the rabbinic position and I will be more forward here: The Rabbinic Noahide doctrine is false and a violation of the written Torah. Period.

Prove me wrong.

And, for the record, this isn't contentious, but it is being very direct regarding a serious twisting of the Torah. Multiple times: there is one torah for the alien and the native Israelite.

 

[Rocky]

Bro, I wasn't being contentious. Lighten up...

Your post does reveal though that you do understand the rabbinic position and I will be more forward here: The Rabbinic Noahide doctrine is false and a violation of the written Torah. Period.

Prove me wrong.

And, for the record, this isn't contentious, but it is being very direct regarding a serious twisting of the Torah. Multiple times: there is one torah for the alien and the native Israelite.

Well,I'm still trying to figure out if I'm being run off, all's I know is I believe G-d created the world,and I try to follow the best I can what I believe he truly ask of me! I don't have to discuss what I believe because I refuse to try to convert anyone! My belief is for me. I apologize if my tone sounds bad . I may be guilty of some mind mapping. I never challenge church leadership! If I didn't agree with a pastor I had the policy of leaving not causing trouble. I may have made a miscalculation I thought biblical family's included people of the old testament too,after all they were the first practicioners of Polagamy.I apologize again if my tone came across bad. I saw you mentioned you had Mormons I thought if you were excepting them you would except me too. I can see why the leadership is nervous about me if this site is to be 100 percent Christian ,please just tell me, Maybe I'm gunshy goes I have lived the bad results of the churches teaching on sex and Marriage! I apologize if I took you wrong!

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Bro, I wasn't being contentious. Lighten up...

Your post does reveal though that you do understand the rabbinic position and I will be more forward here: The Rabbinic Noahide doctrine is false and a violation of the written Torah. Period.

Prove me wrong.

And, for the record, this isn't contentious, but it is being very direct regarding a serious twisting of the Torah. Multiple times: there is one torah for the alien and the native Israelite.

This again? The reason people aren’t disagreeing with you on this lately is because we are trying to keep the peace around here. We’ve all been beaten over the head with this a million times, all over the forum. The evidence is circumstantial at best and unconvincing. Can we try to stick more with what we DO agree on, here? There is enough written on the subject, in these forums alone, to compile several books. People can read it if they want. Can we please give the new folks a chance to get settled and get to know us before we come at them like sumo wrestlers?

 

[FollowingHim]

@PeteR, the full Torah cannot have been in place at Creation because Adam's children had to marry their siblings, and that would have violated Torah. So it is clear that the rules at the time cannot have been the full list given to Moses. There was a shorter list.

On the other hand, @Rocky (and I'm not arguing with you or pushing you away, just engaging in a discussion on a matter I think we both have an interest in) I do not believe that the seven laws that the rabbi Rambam wrote down in the 12th century AD are those laws. There are a lot of reasons to think that is entirely a deception - and not the first.

Fundamentally, Islam is also simply an attempt to go back to the original religion followed by Abraham. It's wrong, because the teachings of Muhammad added lots of problematic stuff. But it is framed as a return to Abraham's faith, and that is how it was "sold" to the original people who started to follow it. And, honestly, the majority of Islam is correct (the best lies are mostly truth) - the errors are in the details. And those details make it actually an entirely new religion, but "marketed" as an old one.

Rambam's 7 laws are another new religion. Like Islam, they are mostly correct - the devil is in the details. The Noahide laws invented by Rambam are not the laws Abraham or Noah followed, they are not supported by any ancient documents. They were invented by him as a counterfeit religion to attract adherents of Christianity and Islam, and bring them together into a universal religion under the control of Jewish rabbis.

Abraham and Noah truly did have a simple faith in God, with a simple set of laws - and I applaud you for seeking to find and follow it. Just be careful that you find what it actually was, and are not deceived with a modern counterfeit.

 

[PeteR]

This again? The reason people aren’t disagreeing with you on this lately is because we are trying to keep the peace around here. We’ve all been beaten over the head with this a million times, all over the forum. The evidence is circumstantial at best and unconvincing. Can we try to stick more with what we DO agree on, here? There is enough written on the subject, in these forums alone, to compile several books. People can read it if they want. Can we please give the new folks a chance to get settled and get to know us before we come at them like sumo wrestlers?

I'm sorry, I must have misread the title of this thread. Let me go back and refresh myself....

 

[Rocky]

@PeteR, the full Torah cannot have been in place at Creation because Adam's children had to marry their siblings, and that would have violated Torah. So it is clear that the rules at the time cannot have been the full list given to Moses. There was a shorter list.

On the other hand, @Rocky (and I'm not arguing with you or pushing you away, just engaging in a discussion on a matter I think we both have an interest in) I do not believe that the seven laws that the rabbi Rambam wrote down in the 12th century AD are those laws. There are a lot of reasons to think that is entirely a deception - and not the first.

Fundamentally, Islam is also simply an attempt to go back to the original religion followed by Abraham. It's wrong, because the teachings of Muhammad added lots of problematic stuff. But it is framed as a return to Abraham's faith, and that is how it was "sold" to the original people who started to follow it. And, honestly, the majority of Islam is correct (the best lies are mostly truth) - the errors are in the details. And those details make it actually an entirely new religion, but "marketed" as an old one.

Rambam's 7 laws are another new religion. Like Islam, they are mostly correct - the devil is in the details. The Noahide laws invented by Rambam are not the laws Abraham or Noah followed, they are not supported by any ancient documents. They were invented by him as a counterfeit religion to attract adherents of Christianity and Islam, and bring them together into a universal religion under the control of Jewish rabbis.

Abraham and Noah truly did have a simple faith in God, with a simple set of laws - and I applaud you for seeking to find and follow it. Just be careful that you find what it actually was, and are not deceived with a modern counterfeit.

Taken! Rocky's my pen name,but little did I know how fitting it would be! It feels like combat class. Maybe we woke some up, I'm used to being the evil one anyway!My wife is sure anything I suggest in sex is evil ! It would be easier to have plain Jane sex, if I could just have about 3 wives in the rotation! That's what I really came here to talk about! How to manage more than one ,when your automatically out numbered,after the first!

 

[FollowingHim]

Taken! Rocky's my pen name,but little did I know how fitting it would be! It feels like combat class. Maybe we woke some up, I'm used to being the evil one anyway!My wife is sure anything I suggest in sex is evil ! It would be easier to have plain Jane sex, if I could just have about 3 wives in the rotation! That's what I really came here to talk about! How to manage more than one ,when your automatically out numbered,after the first!

Short answer - unless things are really good with the first, don't think about taking a second. Polygamy won't fix marital problems, it will make them worse, possibly even get your wife to leave entirely. Get really good at level 1 first (monogamy) before attempting level 2. Polygamy is not the solution to problems in monogamy, monogamy is the training ground to prepare you for polygamy.

A longer answer should be in a different thread though, I don't want to take this one off track. Find a relevant thread to comment on or start your own with your questions.

 

[Rocky]

Short answer - unless things are really good with the first, don't think about taking a second. Polygamy won't fix marital problems, it will make them worse, possibly even get your wife to leave entirely. Get really good at level 1 first (monogamy) before attempting level 2. Polygamy is not the solution to problems in monogamy, monogamy is the training ground to prepare you for polygamy.

A longer answer should be in a different thread though, I don't want to take this one off track. Find a relevant thread to comment on or start your own with your questions.

I wasn't being that serious,just jokingly saying what some people might think! I talk a couple languages and I think we might not realize how modeisms change from area to area,even though we all speak English we don't necessarily speak each other's English. Like picking up on each other's lightness seriousness exct. Hand signals and facial expressions would help a lot to clarify!but we don't have that luxury! So I was being light hearted to show I was alright!