R
redbeard
Guest
Edited from op. Only Bible verses are supplied.
Numbers 30:2 +
Leviticus 5:4-13
1 Corinthians 11:3
Numbers 30:2 +
Leviticus 5:4-13
1 Corinthians 11:3
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Good stuff brother. I encourage you to keep pressing into Scripture and pursuing the truth of Biblical Headship and Patriachal marital structure.
Within a monogamous marriage it is very difficult for a wife to let go of the mono “vows” that were promised to her. In fact, a husband can lead a wife through all the scriptural understanding of Biblical marriage, headship, and the righteous option of polygynous family... watch the wife not only be fully on board, but even become excited for sister wives... to the point of becoming happily engaged in the seeking & courtship process... and STILL end up unable to endure losing her authority and control over the husband in the monogamous marriage she’s most comfortable in and “signed up for”.
The reality is polygyny forces true patriarchal marital structure. Because a godly wife can be submitted in all areas of life, and yet still buck against losing the only wife status of monogamy. Therefore if the husband backs down at that point and chooses to heed the voice of his wife... he is in fact submitting to her, and she is acting as the Head of the marriage and family. (I applaud you for realizing and acknowledging that fact.)
An example to illustrate... If a husband comes to Torah mindedness and feels convicted to eat Kosher and establish a Biblically clean diet for his family / household... should the wife submit to his decision? Or does she have the right to say “I didn’t agree to this when we married... I didn’t sign up for this... I don’t have to eat kosher with you and neither do the children!”
just my 2 cents for now
Within a monogamous marriage it is very difficult for a wife to let go of the mono “vows” that were promised to her. In fact, a husband can lead a wife through all the scriptural understanding of Biblical marriage, headship, and the righteous option of polygynous family... watch the wife not only be fully on board, but even become excited for sister wives... to the point of becoming happily engaged in the seeking & courtship process... and STILL end up unable to endure losing her authority and control over the husband in the monogamous marriage she’s most comfortable in and “signed up for”.
The reality is polygyny forces true patriarchal marital structure. Because a godly wife can be submitted in all areas of life, and yet still buck against losing the only wife status of monogamy. Therefore if the husband backs down at that point and chooses to heed the voice of his wife... he is in fact submitting to her, and she is acting as the Head of the marriage and family. (I applaud you for realizing and acknowledging that fact.)
An example to illustrate... If a husband comes to Torah mindedness and feels convicted to eat Kosher and establish a Biblically clean diet for his family / household... should the wife submit to his decision? Or does she have the right to say “I didn’t agree to this when we married... I didn’t sign up for this... I don’t have to eat kosher with you and neither do the children!”
just my 2 cents for now
You don’t need the first wife’s consent Biblically. Practically speaking is another matter and no sane man would move forward in this area without it.
Technically, logically, legally, you are correct.
However when you are dealing with the emotions of women (and leading a marriage is, to a large degree, the management of female emotions), legal and logical arguments are of little relevance. That comes back to love.
So there are two layers to this - doing right by God, and doing right by your wife. One is about logic and law, the other is about emotion and love. The two layers are almost unrelated, and must be overlayed to see the full picture. They are not in conflict - this is not an argument between God's law and female emotion. Both are true, both are layers of reality. Imagine yourself overlaying layers in image software / GIS / sheets of acetate on a projector to get a comprehensive picture.
Sounds logical - but you're still too focussed on the legal layer, and are not fully accounting for the emotional layer. It's too technical. You're looking for the technically legally correct approach, and then doing it in a way that will cause minimal upset to your wife. You've outlined a multi-step process (do this, then that, then that) that will likely fall over the moment you start.
Simplify.
Firstly:
Why?
Matthew 5: 33-37
Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
You've learnt the hard way one good reason why we should not make vows - because we may, unintentionally, vow falsely. At the time you made your vows you absolutely believed they were correct - now you see they were wrong. Why make more vows that in another few years you may equally regret? Learn from your mistake. Why is it that Jesus said very firmly not to make vows, yet we have made vows central to marriage? Something's wrong there.
As you know, you married Biblically 11 years ago. Without vows. The vows you made later you now know were erroneous, and unnecessary. You can repent for their errors, you don't need to replace them.
Replacing vows makes this "a big deal". It means reconsidering EVERYTHING in your vows to make sure the new ones are correct. It adds an enormous amount of emotion - and you're trying to minimise the emotional strain on your wife. Don't even raise this suggestion.
Cut out all that emotional mess and your path to follow becomes a lot simpler.
Agreed.
Let me tell you my wife's first reaction to reading your suggested new vow:
"Is that his vow to his wife? Seriously?" <rolled her eyes and put her head in her hands>
She then went into an honest rant, which I have tried to capture the gist of in her own wording as much as possible, to try and illustrate how a woman will react to this in her own mind.
"Why is it that when men find out that plural marriage is ok, suddenly everything is about plural marriage? Why would you need to include plural marriage in your vows like that? Why? You're promising to love her, not promising to take another wife whether you like it or not. That's not a thing. It shouldn't even be a thing. God says you have to love your wife. That's your job. If you're going to make your vow, that's it. Your vow should not be 'I am going to take another woman'. That's a different marriage and a different thing entirely. The fact that he wants to put that in his vows like that makes a wife freak out. 'That's clearly more important to him than loving me.' Polygamy is something to leave out of your vows, ie don't promise to be monogamous. It's not something to add into them."
Please remember that my wife is 100% on-board with plural marriage and completely willing to accept me taking another wife. Yet that was her reaction. How do you think a wife who is opposed to plural marriage would react?
Change your approach.
Just had a second chat with Samuel, and he suggested I write my thoughts on here in my own words.
You made a vow to your wife to be faithful only to her, no other women, right? Well, that's the vow you made, and you have to keep to that. You can't just go changing your vows willy nilly whenever you feel like it, whether you were right or wrong. It's up to your wife to release you from the vow as the vow was made to her. (Yes, I know there's a lot of controversy on that subject, but just go with me for now.)
Now, any man's response to that is to panic. Because now you might not ever get another wife unless your wife is on board. What if God sends you a woman and you can't marry her? What if you never have the chance to get another wife at all? That makes your wife in control of your marriage and your choices. It's a deep sinking feeling that this thing that you see as so important and so wonderful may never happen.
Well guess what, that is EXACTLY what your wife is going through if you flip it around.
So you've decided that plural marriage is ok and your wife isn't on board. You're throwing away the vows that you made to her because they're not correct anymore. Her response is to panic. What if he gets another wife? What if God sends him one? What if she has absolutely no say in it all whatsoever? What if he loves her more? What if she hates her? And on and on it goes. It is a deep sinking feeling that it could be this way for the rest of your marriage. At any point in your marriage, even in your seventies, you may decide that you want another wife and there's nothing she can do about it.
Both parties in this feel that this is the most important thing in the world to them. He needs to be able to be open to having another wife one day. She needs the security in knowing that he's not going to start cheating on her (that's what it feels like at this point, rightly or wrongly) and that their marriage is strong and secure. And that their vows are strong and secure.
Please, men, when thinking about how your wives feel, remember the panic and sorrow that you feel over the idea that you might have no control over being able to have another wife, and that you might never get to experience that joy. Love her accordingly.
The most important thing to remember is that God is the one in control. This is not about husbands or wives controlling anything. God can change a wife's heart. God can settle your heart too. If you are both focused on what God wants for your marriage then eventually your feelings, needs, and wants will align. It may take years, or decades, or it could happen overnight, God works in mysterious ways.
You made a vow to your wife to be faithful only to her, no other women, right? Well, that's the vow you made, and you have to keep to that. You can't just go changing your vows willy nilly whenever you feel like it, whether you were right or wrong. It's up to your wife to release you from the vow as the vow was made to her. (Yes, I know there's a lot of controversy on that subject, but just go with me for now.)
Now, any man's response to that is to panic. Because now you might not ever get another wife unless your wife is on board. What if God sends you a woman and you can't marry her? What if you never have the chance to get another wife at all? That makes your wife in control of your marriage and your choices. It's a deep sinking feeling that this thing that you see as so important and so wonderful may never happen.
Well guess what, that is EXACTLY what your wife is going through if you flip it around.
So you've decided that plural marriage is ok and your wife isn't on board. You're throwing away the vows that you made to her because they're not correct anymore. Her response is to panic. What if he gets another wife? What if God sends him one? What if she has absolutely no say in it all whatsoever? What if he loves her more? What if she hates her? And on and on it goes. It is a deep sinking feeling that it could be this way for the rest of your marriage. At any point in your marriage, even in your seventies, you may decide that you want another wife and there's nothing she can do about it.
Both parties in this feel that this is the most important thing in the world to them. He needs to be able to be open to having another wife one day. She needs the security in knowing that he's not going to start cheating on her (that's what it feels like at this point, rightly or wrongly) and that their marriage is strong and secure. And that their vows are strong and secure.
Please, men, when thinking about how your wives feel, remember the panic and sorrow that you feel over the idea that you might have no control over being able to have another wife, and that you might never get to experience that joy. Love her accordingly.
The most important thing to remember is that God is the one in control. This is not about husbands or wives controlling anything. God can change a wife's heart. God can settle your heart too. If you are both focused on what God wants for your marriage then eventually your feelings, needs, and wants will align. It may take years, or decades, or it could happen overnight, God works in mysterious ways
.
My husband made the vow to forsake all others. It’s clearly in our wedding video lol. When plural came up, I held on to that vow and didn’t want to release him of it. It took time for God to work on my heart to soften that. I KNEW I would never actually hold him to it after our discussions of plural in the early days, for I knew that God could bring him someone and I couldn’t actually prevent him from accepting the gift God was giving him.. however much I wanted to. There came a point where God continued to show me that my husbands love wouldn’t be any less, that his heart was in the right place and I could trust him. I released him of that vow. Awhile later, my husband refreshed his spoke words to re- affirm his love to me in a fresh new, biblically based promise to me.
However, had my husband not been patient, made everything focused on plural (like @FollowingHim2 pointed out), taken a second wife right away.. I don’t know that I would have ever gotten to a place of acceptance.
However, had my husband not been patient, made everything focused on plural (like @FollowingHim2 pointed out), taken a second wife right away.. I don’t know that I would have ever gotten to a place of acceptance.
Yes, they were a suggestion you wanted feedback on.
I showed them to my wife, and gave you her immediate, emotional reaction as feedback.
Because the emotional reaction of a woman is rather relevant feedback.
Note that we're not personally attacking you in any way whatsoever - even Sarah isn't. You really are on the right track with all this. We're just helping add a new dimension to it that warrants further consideration. We are deliberately giving emotive feedback not to accuse, but to illustrate what the emotive reaction could be, because that's the precise point we are seeking to cast light on for you.
R
redbeard
Guest
Not really upset, just sorta taken aback. I’m not sure, so I hope I’m not assuming too much, but it seems a lot on the forum assume men just want more wives and aren’t taking their wives seriously. While I think I’d like one, I’m not sure. But the fact is that’s it’s ok if a man wants more. However, when a man says this, everyone almost ravages him, telling him he’d better ask first.
My main point, I think, was missed: a man’s head is Christ, not a woman. I was trying to explain that there’s a way to have one’s vows released from a scriptural perspective and STILL be considerate of his wife’s feelings. The Bible is clear. Everyone’s assuming a man MUST get wifeys’ permission. I disagree. That doesn’t mean I’m just gonna go drag another woman back to my house.
My main point, I think, was missed: a man’s head is Christ, not a woman. I was trying to explain that there’s a way to have one’s vows released from a scriptural perspective and STILL be considerate of his wife’s feelings. The Bible is clear. Everyone’s assuming a man MUST get wifeys’ permission. I disagree. That doesn’t mean I’m just gonna go drag another woman back to my house.
Oh no, I'm not making any such assumption, you'd already made that very clear in your first post, I even quoted you on it in my first response so it was clear I'd noticed:
Since you've taken this the wrong way from the start and have possibly been blinded to my point by your assumption that we're making negative assumptions about you and then falsely criticising you over those assumptions you're assuming we're assuming ( ), I'd like to suggest that you re-read our comments from the assumption that we're being constructive, it might make more sense the second time.
My point was that although you're right on the vows issue, and that you need to still be considerate of your wife's feelings - the way you were proposing being considerate of those feelings didn't seem to be very well thought through and looked like it needed further development.
Since you've taken this the wrong way from the start and have possibly been blinded to my point by your assumption that we're making negative assumptions about you and then falsely criticising you over those assumptions you're assuming we're assuming (
), I'd like to suggest that you re-read our comments from the assumption that we're being constructive, it might make more sense the second time.
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It goes deeper than that. You can just command her to release you and she has to submit. But don’t. It won’t work.
I never made the typical monogamy-only vow to my wife. One of the wonderful blessings of having a wife who keeps all those special treasures is that she kept the cards we each wrote our vows on so we re-read them. Yup, I was free to take another wife, and I have. But I'll tell you straight up; you better have a rock solid couple of women you're dealing with! You cannot imagine what other people will try to do to them, to destroy your relationships, and what their own imaginations/emotions will throw up. The guys here know what they're talking about. Shalom
Vow or no vow, taking a second wife when the first always presumed monogamy, which for those of us who discovered the truth regarding polygamy after our wedding, is for the vast majority of women, is going to be the case, taking a second wife against her wishes violates the Law of Love, and for those of us who follow Christ, that should be our numero uno concern.
You are correct but it is very difficult. Most men have to level way up before they’re ready for that quest.
And why are we making vows to our wives anyway? Where is this in scripture? She can’t enforce them anyway so what’s the point?
I have to agree with I believe it was Mark Henkel, who pointed out that we are not really making vows. We call them vows, but nobody actually says "I vow", unless they write their own vows.
Some use the word, Promise, others use Covenant. As Christians our yes should mean yes, and our no mean no; we are people who are true to our word. And if there needs to be a change to what we've said, admit the wrong and say what's right. We ought never to be known for being duplicitous, and especially with our wives.
Agreed. And this can be done in a mild manner, without opening the big emotional can of worms of "let's change our vows". Just focus on the one issue and discuss an improved understanding of this.
Our church did a bit of mental gymnastics when I asked why they require vows for weddings if the Bible warns against vows. They said that they aren’t vows like in the Bible. But then affirmed them as vows when the question turned to polygyny va monogamy. But when I went back and looked at the cows we took, we hadn’t included the forsaking of others in the original vows anyway…