Same with me and my first. We wrote biblical vows and said them, and did that with my second. I just regret paying the government for a licence for my first.
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I also bought into the whole “living in sin” if you didn’t pay the government for a license.
These days I understand that God has his requirements for marriage and that’s all I’m under obligation to. No outside person gets to put other “obligations” on my relationships. It makes life much simpler, and frankly, works better.
Taking cows is serious! They call that rustlin'!!
We didn't think about it back then. I'm sure our vows included "keeping yourself only to her" (or him).
YHWH knows we always wanted the truth....and that I never wanted him to be bound by that ignorant "repeat after me" once we understood things better.
"cows we took". Too funny!!!!
The hard part for me, is explaining to my son the importance of a marriage committment. He told me that he considers himself to be married, but his girlfriend thinks of themselves as being in a "committed" relationship.
I have yet to find a place in the scripture where a marriage consisted of vows!
I think people underestimate the importance and meaning of commitment, especially in the context of "marriage." You really cannot build a life together without a solid foundation. If either gets threatened with divorce it will sabotage any progress as the other will start thinking about what will be done if that happens.
In the modern world the women have too much power to end marriage, and the men usually not enough power to keep it together.
What does a commitment mean to her? Committed until death do us part, or until I decide to get someone different/decide that you are stifling me?
If she isn’t committed to the long term, he is just in a short term romantic relationship that could become a long term financial trap if a spermatozoa gets loose.
Think of it this way: ALL of Numbers chapter 30. The essence of the union (first it's the father, then the authority transfers) is that a husband has AUTHORITY over his wives' vows. And when they are cast down - he "bears her guilt." Lots of important meat in there.
Every vow in the scripture that I have found appears to be between the individual and Yah, I have not found one between two people, and specifically ever a marriage. Can you show any scripture where a vow concerning marriage is recorded? What were the vows? I can only think of in Deuteronomy where we declare to be His people and He declares to be our Yah. The authority is also not the exact same. The husband has more authority, he can break it past the day of hearing for a price. If you word study nāḏar, you will find that it is between a person and Yah. Marriage vows in the way we understand them are not recorded in the scripture. I would be happy to look at some references if you have them though.
Not that I am aware of. But what I suggest is that Numbers 30 and authority over the vows of a wife, and admonitions about others, is there for a reason.
(Likewise, so is the 'sefer keretutah' of Deuteronomy 24:1 and 3. It seems obvious that the written word of the husband can serve as a second witness to her status.)
However, the ENTIRE prototypical story of the servant of Abraham (never named there, because the important part is that he comes as the agent of, with the authority of, "in the name of" his master, Abraham) is about outlining VERY specific details of the 'compact,' 'covenant', 'contract' - whatever - that amount to Rivkah AGREEING to become the wife of Yitzak by means of that intermediary to the clearly explicit contract, by her agreement. (Offer and acceptance, if you will.)
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I agree it's there for a reason, we see many vows throughout the Torah, it just so happens that none of them have to do with marriage. We also see in other places vows like Hannah's and even the Pharisees who sought Paul's life. A vow that binds your soul or afflicts it will be required of you. As a husband or father, you have the ability to annul of vow that binds or afflicts the soul of the woman. Jephthah's vow was extreme.
In the writ of divorce the man has sent her away. I see in no place in scripture that he has broken the woman's vow.
I am in agreement with the story and the type and how it applies to us. I understand how the covenant made with us works. What is lacking from the recording of this story in the scriptures are any vows. What are the conditions of this covenant? What is expected between each party? Where did they agree upon it? What vow did Isaac take? What vow did Rebekah say? Notice the servant is under a vow to do so, but no mention of any vow between Issac and his bride. Are you implying that Isaac said some sort of vow before taking her into his mother's tent? Do you say that a marriage must include vows?, if so what are the biblical vows that a marriage would include, and where are the references to them in the scripture?
Mark, I am curious about your position on the very old Thelyphthora by Madan? In it he argues that we are in essence "extra-scriptural" and creating a rule that the Father never intended by having a big fancy ceremony and vows when that is not ever mandated. I recently read major portions of it. Madan's position is that the coming together in sexual union IS the marriage. When "one flesh" happens then the "purchase" is complete. She has been humbled and his authority and protection is now over her. No specific word or phrase is proscribed. The simplicity of that "transaction" is then underpinned by the gravity of Law in "Thou shalt not commit adultery." I have been curious for years about the relative cavalier tone of the "sex is marriage" position versus the weight of the Law.
Sex doesn’t equal marriage. If it did, then there wouldn’t be a command that if you sleep with a virgin, then you must either marry her or pay the father the bride price he demands. Also, then you’d be marrying a prostitiute if you slept with her and that is never shown in scripture as a reality.
There seems to be two pieces for a marriage vs concubine: sex and consent of the authority over the woman, assuming she’s still under authority.
In our culture fathers usually give up their authority when they make their daughters move out, get jobs and support themselves, amd solve their own problems without the fathers protection. By sending the daughters away, the daughter then has authority to decide who to marry.
There seems to be two pieces for a marriage vs concubine: sex and consent of the authority over the woman, assuming she’s still under authority.
In our culture fathers usually give up their authority when they make their daughters move out, get jobs and support themselves, amd solve their own problems without the fathers protection. By sending the daughters away, the daughter then has authority to decide who to marry.
Exactly! That is precisely what we said in our conversation with them...well, that first part. Committed until death do us part.
Do you see being one flesh different than being married?
The man doesn't have two options, he has 1 option. He must endow her or pay for her, if the father refuses the offered dowry then the man must pay the highest price possible by Law. There is no option of not marrying. Its even clearer when he forces himself upon a woman. He pays a hefty fine and he can never send her away all of his days. These laws apply not to a foreign man but only a brother (Israelite). You do not give your daughter to a foreigner.
I agree!
If sex equaled marriage then significant portions of the law regarding sexual purity and marriage are redundant and pointless.
Fornication, playing the whore, harlotry, all these would not exist if sex=marriage. There would be one sin. Adultery. All other sexual unions would constitute marriage.
It’s baffling to me that there’s even a debate on this. It’s simple logic.
So from how you understand it, sex=one flesh and one flesh does not= marriage to you?