Stuff that is Abomination

[Maddog]

Absolutely! But I was addressing the propensity of certain individuals to start with the idea, define the word according to the hypothetical ideas and then work out from there. That’s not wise.


This is defining the word on supposition. That’s not rightly dividing the word.

Then the OP confirms the discussion is based on conjecture rather than what God’s word says on the matter. That’s backwards.

Of course discuss, but we’re here for “biblical” things. Not “conjecture” things.

A basic tenet of getting understanding is to start with knowing what the word means. I work daily to teach my sons wisdom and understanding. But before they can obtain either, they first must understand the meaning of the word I’m teaching them about. If they start by erroneously believing a hammer is called an adjustable wrench, then when we’re talking about how to take apart a gas line, they’ll be imagining using that hammer. If you start with ideas about the word without knowing what the word means, you will certainly go astray.

Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

When we start discussions here with diverse viewpoints on torah keeping and liberty. We should be careful to not sow discord. There’s a lot of it going on lately. I’m sure I’m guilty of it as well. But it’s not difficult or time consuming to start by going to scripture to understand the meaning of the word you’re asking about.

By doing so, we can seek wisdom and get understanding.

To a hammer, everything is a nail. Problem is everything is not a nail, therefore I look again at the tool in my hand. I was replaying my own experience as a young man where everything was SIN. I was obedient as best I could but then I grew and found things were not as bad as described and I enjoyed watching a movie in the theater and the fragrance of dad's pipe. I am a steadfast believer in God's Word and obedience first but as an adult then to grow into knowing the why's. That is NOT starting with my modern definition and working backward through eisegesis means to arrive at a wholly different meaning. Accusations of such a thing give me pause to analyze my own intent then cautiously set aside the accusation. For the student of the Word, it is not taken lightly and I trust that the accusation from the accuser isn't either.
It is not too different from the scientific method where one has few facts and develops an hypothesis then sets about to prove or disprove said position. It is the struggle to reach the WHY. The discovery of bacteria SUPPORTS the cleanliness rules. The discovery of genetics SUPPORTS the prohibition of incest. The deterioration of societies shows the need for God's mandate of structure and SUPPORTS a patriarchy. And on we can go in our reasoning because "It just makes sense!" The prophet said, "Come let us reason together..." and so we do.

 

[FollowingHim]

I guess Kosher slaughter falls under one of those 'old laws' that I am absolutely not going to abide. It is needless cruelty.

For me Kosher slaughter falls under the category of Talmudic teachings that have almost nothing to do with scripture. The actual biblical requirements as I said before are exactly what any homekill butcher will do.

Just as the Quranic requirements are also far less stringent than the Halal requirements, which have also largely been invented by subsequent religious teachers, and support a certification regime that is a lucrative revenue stream for the same teachers...

Edit: "as I have commanded thee" is a nice little phrase that you can shoehorn any teaching you like into and claim that it was passed down from rabbi to rabbi even if you just made it up yesterday. It's not scripture so we can ignore these claims.

 

[MeganC]

For me Kosher slaughter falls under the category of Talmudic teachings that have almost nothing to do with scripture. The actual biblical requirements as I said before are exactly what any homekill butcher will do.

Just as the Quranic requirements are also far less stringent than the Halal requirements, which have also largely been invented by subsequent religious teachers, and support a certification regime that is a lucrative revenue stream for the same teachers...

Edit: "as I have commanded thee" is a nice little phrase that you can shoehorn any teaching you like into and claim that it was passed down from rabbi to rabbi even if you just made it up yesterday. It's not scripture so we can ignore these claims.

I so agree!

Maybe there was a time when these practices made sense. I know I will brine chickens, turkeys, and geese after slaughter to help reduce salmonella. It is a kosher practice that has a practical application.

But with our birds we get it over with quick. The cattle and bison get the bolt. There is no needless suffering allowed.

 

[steve]

Back in the day, the bolt didn’t exist.
So I think that we have a system that was codified as “best practices” for the times, but now needs upgrading.
Religion is often slow to change.

 

[FollowingHim]

Back in the day, the bolt didn’t exist.
So I think that we have a system that was codified as “best practices” for the times, but now needs upgrading.
Religion is often slow to change.

The problem is that animal welfare rules are actually not based solely on science, but are also somewhat arbitrary. I actually used to work at an agricultural research centre alongside one of the key scientific advisors who helped to draft the animal welfare rules around slaughter practices in NZ. They did research into different slaughter practices, and used various scientific methods to understand the level of pain animals felt in each method. This informed the rules - they banned slaughter practices that caused more than a certain threshold of pain. But then allowed exceptions to the rules also depending on the circumstances.

So for sheep, they decided that in slaughterhouses animals had to be stunned before cutting the throat - but a farmer putting down an animal did not need to do so, because it was not always practical.

Why? What says X amount of pain is acceptable in one situation but not in another? The opinion of a human, that is all.

The point is that this threshold is arbitrary. Sure science can estimate that one practice causes more pain and another causes less pain (and even that without a degree of error, as we can't actually feel what a sheep feels but must use other indicators). But what level of pain is "acceptable" is still an arbitrary decision. It is informed by ethics, not science - and secular ethics is informed by emotion.

I recall having a discussion with this scientist, where I tried to explain how the rules he had advised on were informed by science, but still an arbitrary decision which a different person could disagree with. He just couldn't understand my point - which is a symptom of wider societal misunderstandings of science unfortunately.

Science can tell us that slaughtering an animal without stunning it first is more painful. But it cannot tell us whether it is acceptable to do either. That remains an ethical / philosophical / religious / emotional decision.

And what gives a government the right to define and enforce "best practices"?

If it was acceptable to God for humans in biblical times to slaughter an animal by cutting the throat, then it remains acceptable today - because God never changes.

In biology at school we were allowed to experiment on live invertebrates, but not live vertebrates. Why? Because of human emotional opinions, that is all - people feel that it is acceptable to cause pain to an insect but not to a rat. Even if that is the right decision, it is not a scientific one (though it can be informed by science). It's an emotional one.

 

[Joleneakamama]

If it was acceptable to God for humans in biblical times to slaughter an animal by cutting the throat, then it remains acceptable today - because God never changes.

This is the real key point, and the way to make sense out of the jumble of nonsense we have inherited.
We must teach our children to look to His moral code for guidance. ...by doing that ourselves!

In biology at school we were allowed to experiment on live invertebrates, but not live vertebrates. Why?

I just found out from my sw who is taking an EMT class that students that are going to be EMT's or paramedics on ambulances are only able to practice cutting an emergency airway (tracheotomy) on pigs. Really? Why not real people who's bodies were donated to science? It can be life or death in an emergency. No wonder the gal on a call I ran 14 months ago had trouble. That isn't very good preparation for cutting on a live but injured young man while his family waits for you to get him to the hospital! He had to wait for a more experienced life flight medic to get it right.

 

[PeteR]

Whew... long read. Lots of back and forth, but i'm really surprised a key passage was not brought out...

@Bartato and @MeganC how do you handle this?

Isaiah 66:15For behold, the LORD will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.
17“Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens, Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the LORD.

Has this happened already? Is this future? How do you reconcile this?

And a second related passage, same questions..

Malachi 4:4“Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.
5“Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.

 

[Mark C]

...I'm really surprised a key passage was not brought out...

Isaiah 66:15..
... the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.
17“Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens, Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the LORD.

Has this happened already? Is this future? How do you reconcile this?

Great point, Pete. (And that one has occurred to me SO often of late, I'm surprised I hadn't; prolly thought I had... )

But, arguably, the one that guides my concern on these - and related - abominations is the verse that set up that chapter,
Isaiah 66:3-4.

After saying Yah will look to the man who "trembles at My Word," He continues, apparently concerning the contrary,

"... Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. (root: shaketz)
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."

It strikes me that - EVEN if He lied, and miraculously changed the bodies of pigs AND me 'at the cross' - since He never even told Peter about that - it arguably means He still doesn't "delight" in such a choice.

Even more importantly, I suggest, is that He will 'choose their delusions'.

Yes, keeping our bodies clean, healthy, and able to do the work He has for us (so that we 'might be found doing His work,' and 'be counted worthy to escape the things that are coming upon the earth') is vital. I pray that all who seek to be called by His Name will walk in His blessing.

But even more key to understanding the 'times and seasons' is this:

Look around. If THIS NATION, and indeed whole world, is NOT starting to see His judgment - then ask, yourself, honestly, JUST WHAT THE HELL (literally) WILL that look like?

I can't help but see a whole lot of " delusion' choosin' " already goin' on.

WHATEVER stuff is 'abomination' - it ABOUNDS today. And that judgment will soon be impossible to deny.

 

[The Revolting Man]

This is a pointless debate. It will not get resolved and it is a distraction from the purpose of this ministry. For thousands of years Christians have found ample support in the scripture for eating unclean. Nothing said here will change that.

Let’s focus on why we’re all here, revealing and promulgating God’s truth about one flesh. We have enough trouble with that.

Christians, you do have dietary restrictions. You’re forbidden from eating blood, things strangled and meat sacrificed to idols. Stop acting like dietary restrictions are some kind of theological fascism. God clearly places some value on us curbing what we put in our mouths.

Torah people, there will be a lot of people tormented for all eternity who never once touched unclean food. Let it go. This is a secondary and possibly even tertiary step. Most of us didn’t start our journey to obedience with clean eating. Why would you expect anyone else to? None of us keep the Law perfectly or even very well. Why are we so prideful of what for most of us takes no sacrifice or discomfort to perform? Come back and brag when you control your tongue, or your pride or when you stop overeating, which is also a sin that involves food.

 

[NVIII]

What an exhausting read! I've read several other threads here over the past month or so, and they're similar. Lots of pride and idolatry clouding your minds and working to destroy what God could be building here through you. I'm certain a man would suffer far less from eating a whole pig than from digesting some of the vitriol coming from your mouths. I read through the whole thing looking for an actual answer to @Maddog because it's a concept of interest to me. I think exactly two people read his original post for understanding. With few exceptions, the rest of y'all trampled the whole thing in the mud and some even tried to tear him to pieces, which I have seen is your habit. He even patiently rephrased and reiterated it for y'all to gently nudge you back on topic. For those still not understanding, "It is the glory of God to hide a matter, and the glory of man to discover it." If you don't have anything to offer him to aid his efforts at discovery, wish him well and carry on with your life. If him asking "why" is a great threat to your theology, pray for faith! And, (in the voice of Topol) "as the Good Book says", don't judge another man's servant. To his own master he stands or falls, and God is able to make him stand. Some observe holy days, some treat every day the same, but each one does so unto the Lord. So, if you abstain from alcohol, pork, playing cards, or tiddlywinks, just be sure you are doing it unto the Lord and not unto the Torah, for instance. Then you, too, can stand without fear.

 

[FollowingHim]

This is a pointless debate. It will not get resolved and it is a distraction from the purpose of this ministry. For thousands of years Christians have found ample support in the scripture for eating unclean. Nothing said here will change that.

Yes, absolutely!

Let’s focus on why we’re all here, revealing and promulgating God’s truth about one flesh. We have enough trouble with that.

Sort-of, but I think that some of the theological debate on that is equally pointless and will never be resolved. The purpose of the ministry is not to debate the meaning of "one flesh" round and round in circles (as has been done here recently), but to address the whole broad spectrum of issues pertaining to marriage, of which that is one small detail (positioned in a very central position of course, but the precise theological understanding of its definition is still a small detail).

Christians, you do have dietary restrictions. You’re forbidden from eating blood, things strangled and meat sacrificed to idols. Stop acting like dietary restrictions are some kind of theological fascism. God clearly places some value on us curbing what we put in our mouths.

Torah people, there will be a lot of people tormented for all eternity who never once touched unclean food. Let it go. This is a secondary and possibly even tertiary step. Most of us didn’t start our journey to obedience with clean eating. Why would you expect anyone else to? None of us keep the Law perfectly or even very well. Why are we so prideful of what for most of us takes no sacrifice or discomfort to perform? Come back and brag when you control your tongue, or your pride or when you stop overeating, which is also a sin that involves food.

Very, very well said.

 

[FollowingHim]

What an exhausting read! I've read several other threads here over the past month or so, and they're similar. Lots of pride and idolatry clouding your minds and working to destroy what God could be building here through you. I'm certain a man would suffer far less from eating a whole pig than from digesting some of the vitriol coming from your mouths. I read through the whole thing looking for an actual answer to @Maddog because it's a concept of interest to me. I think exactly two people read his original post for understanding. With few exceptions, the rest of y'all trampled the whole thing in the mud and some even tried to tear him to pieces, which I have seen is your habit. He even patiently rephrased and reiterated it for y'all to gently nudge you back on topic. For those still not understanding, "It is the glory of God to hide a matter, and the glory of man to discover it." If you don't have anything to offer him to aid his efforts at discovery, wish him well and carry on with your life. If him asking "why" is a great threat to your theology, pray for faith! And, (in the voice of Topol) "as the Good Book says", don't judge another man's servant. To his own master he stands or falls, and God is able to make him stand. Some observe holy days, some treat every day the same, but each one does so unto the Lord. So, if you abstain from alcohol, pork, playing cards, or tiddlywinks, just be sure you are doing it unto the Lord and not unto the Torah, for instance. Then you, too, can stand without fear.

Welcome to the forum @NVIII, and thankyou for presenting your blunt impressions from the outside, it is very helpful for everyone here to see how their words are perceived by others. I certainly appreciate someone saying this.

It would be good to hear more from you, I look forward to your posts elsewhere.

 

[MeganC]

You’re forbidden from eating blood, things strangled and meat sacrificed to idols.

1 Corinthians 8:

1Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2The one who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the one who loves God is known by God.

4So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

7But not everyone has this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that they eat such food as if it were sacrificed to an idol. And since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us closer to God: We are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

9Be careful, however, that your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if someone with a weak conscience sees you who are well informed eating in an idol’s temple, will he not be encouraged to eat food sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12By sinning against your brothers in this way and wounding their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to stumble.

 

[Mark C]

1 Corinthians 8:

What? !!!! Contradictions now even in the New Testament?

 

[The Revolting Man]

1 Corinthians 8:

This is a Pauline epistle. Keep reading. Several chapters later he circles back and says not to eat food sacrifices to idols. He’s adamant that it has no power but don’t eat it anyway.

It’s possible I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Forgive me if so.

 

[Mark C]

Oops. This was arguably posted in the wrong thread (not that it probably matters...)

Food for thought (if not perhaps for much else...):

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2023/02/no_author/lab-grown-meat-is-made-of-cancer-cells/

Key point is in the headline. It's 'protein' - by the same arguments we've seen, it's 'not prohibited' say some, so what's not to like? Besides, Bill Gates wants you to eat it, too.

Yeah - maybe it's made from human 'immortal' cancer cell lines, but it's "meat" - and isn't that "all good?"

 

[Bartato]

This is a Pauline epistle. Keep reading. Several chapters later he circles back and says not to eat food sacrifices to idols. He’s adamant that it has no power but don’t eat it anyway.

It’s possible I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Forgive me if so.

Based on Acts 15 and Revelation 2, I would say we should avoid foods sacrificed to idols, even though the idols themselves are nothing.

"Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. " (Revelation 2:20)

I don't think we have to overly worry ourselves about it, but should generally avoid foods sacrificed to idols.

Here is one example. As some of you know, my wife is Japanese. She was a Christian believer before she ever met me, but the rest of her family are not. Like most Japanese people, they are somewhat casual adherents to both Buddhism and Shintoism. Thet have some connection with Christianity through us, and friends from the church my wife attended in Japan, but have not professed Christ.

At my in-laws house, they have a little shrine set up for the veneration of ancestors, and sometimes burn incense and set up little food offerings (fruit or mochi type stuff). This is a Shinto thing.

I would suggest Christians not eat those foods (I don't think the Japanese do anyway).

Some years back, my father in law died and we were there for the funeral. His funeral was a Buddhist funeral. We, the family all ate a meal together associated with the funeral, and I believe the people who prepared it were Buddhist monks.

Come to think of it, I've also eaten a meal at a Buddhist temple before (as part of a tour bus group).

Were these foods sacrificed to idols? I don't know. (FWIW, these "Buddhist" meals are all vegetarian, and I do think that is relevant.) Not knowing if the food had been offered to idols, I ate the meal and didn't worry too much.

I think that was ok.

I think it would be different if I knew the food had been sacrificed to idols.

I also think great care would be warranted were there weak or immature Japanese Christians present who might be tempted by Buddhism.

 

[FollowingHim2]

Like most Japanese people, they are somewhat casual adherents to both Buddhism and Shintoism.

The Japanese are so interesting. We had a young woman staying with us for a while to learn English. She told us about their superstitions, and their shrines, and their offerings. It's not really something that they actually believe in, it's more tradition than anything else. She was most surprised in learning about Christianity and that it was something we actually believed was true. She told us no one she knows actually believes in these gods they worship, but it's tradition and respectful to continue to do it.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Based on Acts 15 and Revelation 2, I would say we should avoid foods sacrificed to idols, even though the idols themselves are nothing.

"Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. " (Revelation 2:20)

I don't think we have to overly worry ourselves about it, but should generally avoid foods sacrificed to idols.

Here is one example. As some of you know, my wife is Japanese. She was a Christian believer before she ever met me, but the rest of her family are not. Like most Japanese people, they are somewhat casual adherents to both Buddhism and Shintoism. Thet have some connection with Christianity through us, and friends from the church my wife attended in Japan, but have not professed Christ.

At my in-laws house, they have a little shrine set up for the veneration of ancestors, and sometimes burn incense and set up little food offerings (fruit or mochi type stuff). This is a Shinto thing.

I would suggest Christians not eat those foods (I don't think the Japanese do anyway).

Some years back, my father in law died and we were there for the funeral. His funeral was a Buddhist funeral. We, the family all ate a meal together associated with the funeral, and I believe the people who prepared it were Buddhist monks.

Come to think of it, I've also eaten a meal at a Buddhist temple before (as part of a tour bus group).

Were these foods sacrificed to idols? I don't know. (FWIW, these "Buddhist" meals are all vegetarian, and I do think that is relevant.) Not knowing if the food had been offered to idols, I ate the meal and didn't worry too much.

I think that was ok.

I think it would be different if I knew the food had been sacrificed to idols.

I also think great care would be warranted were there weak or immature Japanese Christians present who might be tempted by Buddhism.

The broader point still being that there are undeniably still dietary restrictions on the New Testament believers and what we’re disagreeing about is the extent of those restrictions.

 

[Bartato]

The Japanese are so interesting. We had a young woman staying with us for a while to learn English. She told us about their superstitions, and their shrines, and their offerings. It's not really something that they actually believe in, it's more tradition than anything else. She was most surprised in learning about Christianity and that it was something we actually believed was true. She told us no one she knows actually believes in these gods they worship, but it's tradition and respectful to continue to do it.

I think there is a lot of truth to that. The Japanese aren't usually very devout in their religion.

I do note that this was a young woman you talked to. I think age, infirmity, and approaching death might cause some to become more serious over time.

I also think our family in Japan is a little more serious/traditional than average.

The Japanese seem so modern and secular, yet I'm still occasionally surprised by some of their superstitions.

The traditions of the Japanese have also given them some limited protection against several of the lies of globohomo. They are still more traditional in terms of gender roles. On average, the women are much more feminine than Westerners. They have also resisted mass migration and population replacement.