Submit

[FollowingHim]

Women love to voice their opinions to their husbands when that is not of God. This only leads them to question authority when commanded to do something. ...
but I don't think women should voice their opinions of what they think about something to their husbands, that only leads to arguments, contention, and war.

Sharon, you have stated this on a number of occasions, and on a different thread on this topic you provided your scriptural reasoning behind this.

Now SHE SHOULDN'T TRY TO TELL HIM HE IS WRONG EITHER, OR CORRECT HIM 1Timothy 2:12-14 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach , nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence...

1 Timothy 2 parallels 1 Corinthians 14, which explains the context of the instruction for women to be silent.

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

So women are instructed to keep silence in the church, and not be in authority over a man. But they are never instructed to keep silent from their husbands, on the contrary they are told to discuss scriptural matters with their husbands in order to understand them better.

Voicing an opinion to your husband is NOT being in authority over him. If you disagree with him, or think he has something wrong, TELL HIM. That way, one of two things will probably happen:
- He will explain to you more clearly from the scriptures why you are mistaken, so you come to a better understanding of the matter yourself, or
- You may raise a point on the issue that he hadn't yet considered, which will cause him to look deeper into the issue and possibly come to a better understanding of it himself.

However, if you stay silent, you will continue to disagree with each other, but he may have no idea that you disagree with him, and neither of you will learn anything.

One of my greatest resources in preparing sermons or understanding any scriptural issue is discussing it with my wife. She does not teach me. However she often remembers verses I hadn't thought of, points out a different perspective on the topic, and inspires me to look deeper into it in a way that helps me to come to a greater understanding of the issue - which I am then able to teach to her. I am very glad that she does not keep silent but speaks her mind.

Wives should be able to speak their mind honestly and openly, and explain their opinions on any matter clearly to their husbands. They should then be willing to accept his authority and obey him, even if his instructions disagree with their own views. You can voice an opinion and accept authority at the same time.

 

[sharonr]

I will answer to your discussion on another thread Samuel. I think this thread about submission should stay at this, and another thread I will discuss, about how a women should conduct herself and also what my husband and I been through in our marriage.

 

[sweetlissa]

This is Lissa again. Hubby is getting on under his own ID later on.

FollowingHim wrote:

SweetLissa, I think we actually agree, roughly. We both believe a woman is required to obey her husband in all matters unless he tells her to sin, and in that case she has freedom to disobey her husband. The scriptural and logical reasoning we use to get to that point differs however.
- If I understand you correctly, you believe that if a husband commands a wife to sin, she must obey the higher authority (God) and disobey her husband. If she does this, nobody sins, nobody gets punished.
- I on the other hand believe that the law to obey her husband still stands, and she is sinning by disobeying him. She is free to disobey him and obey the higher authority (God), but a sin is still committed. The blame for this sin falls on her husband. This means that her husband incurs guilt through commanding her to sin, which he will be held accountable for on judgement day.

I actually did not take it to that place. My concern was only for my own duty. My husband is responsible for his own actions. I believe it is sin to lead (or try to lead) someone into sin and he would still be accountable for it. I just had not taken it that far in my thinking. I was thinking about my own self-preservation.

 

[DaPastor]

Hi Guys, Great posts. I normally have to keep my mouth shut on this topic because of the great PC and its wrath of the land. This is my thinking - sin is missing the mark ( not obeying Gods Word). The wife is told to submit to her husband in everything. Not just once but that this is to be the main characteristic of a wife! Is it not sin for the wife to usurp and not obey her husband? This is a woman's calling and God's will. Was not the wife created to be the helpmate for man? How does this work? I see the oneness of man - Both together as one unit - "male and female". I believe that they are more one soul than the two. That is why Jesus command that no one comes between what God has joined together. I even wonder if one can save the soul of both (1 Cor 7). The bottom line is we need our wives and this is good.

This verse must be understood in context. Read it carefully and put it all together: "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Ephesians 5:24" AS THE CHURCH IS SUBJECT TO CHRIST.... so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing." The church is ONLY subject to Christ in matters that are holy and pure. Therefore, a wife is to submit in everything political, domestic, and ecclesiastic; THAT IS CONSISTENT WITH THE LAWS OF GOD, and the Gospel of Christ. This agrees with the entirety of Scripture. If it doesn't, then how do you deal with the Scripture that says that believers are to OBEY their church leaders?

God's Word does not contradict itself concerning the WHOLE truth of Biblical submission. It is 100% in agreement. God is the 100% head of both the husband and wife. The husband does not override God's Word - period!

 

[DaPastor]

I believe very strongly in a woman's position of submission to her husband. I believe that that a woman's submission is an integral part of a proper relationship to her husband, but also to the Lord. I believe this according to the following scriptures:

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. Eph 5:22

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. 1 Cor 11:3

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Col 3:18

There is one common thread in these verses besides submission, and that is that the submission is to be TO THE LORD.
You cannot willingly disobey the Lord by submitting to your husband. It just isn't possible.I know that many women will take this supposed loophole and run like the wind with it. This is unfortunate, but those women would have found a way not to submit no matter what, since they weren't submitting as to the Lord in the first place.

Personal accountability to God does not go away with marriage. Each of the above verses clearly states that a wife is to submit to her husband as she would submit to the Lord, and she would never be required to sin against God while submitting to God.

The same principle holds true for all aspects of authority: family, church and government. They are all valid, God-ordained forms of authority and they all need to be submitted to, unless there is a specific command in direct conflict with God's Word. If a person chooses to use this supposed "loophole" to get out of submitting, they will be held accountable to God for those actions, as well.

Good post. Very balanced and Scriptural!

 

[DaPastor]

Obey your husband not unless he tells you to sin, is a huge understatement, you are adding to God's word.
1 Peter 3:6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.

Actually, you are not understanding the passages in context. You are actually adding to Scripture a concept that God does not approve of - absolute submission belongs to God alone - period! No man can steal His glory! There is nothing wrong with obeying a husband unless He commands his wife to disobey God. At that point, he is no longer representing Christ, but the Devil!

 

[DaPastor]

1 Peter 3:1-2 - Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct.

Note that this verse refers to a husband that is in disobedience to the Word (i.e. disobedience to the Word = sin). The idea that a wife is to conditionally obey her husband is contradicted by this verse. The idea that a man is not responsible for the sins of his wife or son is easily understood in terms of their disobedience to him (as expressed so concisely by Samuel previously on this thread). When a wife or son disobeys a husband, and the husband was commanding righteous action, the wife or son are indeed responsible for their own sin. Otherwise, if a wife or son disobeys God whilst obeying a husband commanding sinful action, the husband is responsible for the sin.

1. The husband is the one disobeying.
2. This verse does not contradict the entire tenor of Scripture on how authority and submission works.
3. The husband and the wife are both responsible. Just as much as if a Pastor like Jim Jones tells a person in his congregation that he must obey him (which is totally Scriptural), that person will be responsible for his sin too.

https://www.cbmw.org/clarifying-words-on-wife-abuse/

 

[sharonr]

absolute submission belongs to God alone - period! No man can steal His glory! There is nothing wrong with obeying a husband unless He commands his wife to disobey God.

What I said is scripture, I did not add to it. Why didnt God tell us this in scripture Da Pastor. Why did he only say to submit in everything, why didnt He add, only if he tells you to sin, dont do it.

 

[DaPastor]

Romans 7:2-3For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

A women is bound by law and to the law of her husband

1 Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

We are bound to our husbands rules, as long as he lives.

1 Corithians 7:10-15 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.

12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.

Genesis 3:16 NKJ To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."

No one is questioning obedience to a husband! That is certainly Biblical. However, Scripture does not support the husband being in a higher authority than God - that is absurd!

 

[DaPastor]

absolute submission belongs to God alone - period! No man can steal His glory! There is nothing wrong with obeying a husband unless He commands his wife to disobey God.

What I said is scripture, I did not add to it. Why didnt God tell us this in scripture Da Pastor. Why did he only say to submit in everything, why didnt He add, only if he tells you to sin, dont do it.

EVERYTHING must be understood contextually, or God would be guilty of contradicting Himself. How could a Holy God encourage someone to have more authority than God Himself. You are READING into this text WAY more than what it means!

 

[sharonr]

Da Pastor

Just as much as if a Pastor like Jim Jones tells a person in his congregation that he must obey him (which is totally Scriptural), that person will be responsible for his sin too.

The church is suppose to submit to Christ, not the Pastor, no where in scripture it says to submit to the church leader, but it does tell wives to submit to there husbands. In scripture it says the head over man is Christ.

1 Cor. 11:3-16But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The church leaders dont all follow God the correct way, alot of times you have to distinguish between their lies and the truth of God. So we can not submit to everything the Pastor says, but only Gods word, and to Christ. God told women that man is the head of them, their husband so we are to submit to man, our head. Single ladies submit to Christ, because they dont have a husband, only Christ as their husband.

 

[DaPastor]

absolute submission belongs to God alone - period! No man can steal His glory! There is nothing wrong with obeying a husband unless He commands his wife to disobey God.

What I said is scripture, I did not add to it. Why didnt God tell us this in scripture Da Pastor. Why did he only say to submit in everything, why didnt He add, only if he tells you to sin, dont do it.

Therefore—Translate, as Greek, “But,” or “Nevertheless,” that is, though there be the difference of headships mentioned in Eph 5:23, nevertheless, thus far they are one, namely, in the subjection or submission (the same Greek stands for “is subject,” as for “submit,” Eph 5:21, 22) of the Church to Christ, being the prototype of that of the wife to the husband.
their own—not in most of the oldest manuscripts, and not needed by the argument.
in every thing—appertaining to a husband’s legitimate authority; “in the Lord” (Col 3:18); EVERYTHING NOT CONTRARY TO GOD.
Jamieson, Robert ; Fausset, A. R. ; Fausset, A. R. ; Brown, David ; Brown, David: A Commentary, Critical and Explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997, S. Eph 5:24

 

[sharonr]

Da Pastor

Just as much as if a Pastor like Jim Jones tells a person in his congregation that he must obey him (which is totally Scriptural), that person will be responsible for his sin too.

The cuurch is suppose to submit to Christ, not the Pastor, no where in scripture it says to submit to the church leader, but it does tell wives to submit to there husbands. In scripture it says the head over man is Christ.

But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The church leaders dont all follow God the correct way, alot of times you have to distinguish between their lies and the truth of God. So we can not submit to everything the Pastor says, but only Gods word, and to Christ. God told women that man is the head of them, their husband so we are to submit to man, our head. Single ladies submit to Christ, because they dont have a husband, only Christ as their husband. When a women marries, she now has her husband as the head, now its man, then Christ.

 

[DaPastor]

There is only ONE God that deserves absolute submission - that is not a husband. To place a husband before God and His Word is the sin of Idolatry.
SweetLissa

I dont consider my self an idolatress for submitting to my husband in EVERYTHING

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

This is clear, in scripture, to submit in everything.

Scripture cannot contradict Scripture. To take the word "everything" to mean "absolute" is playing with Scripture and contradicts hundreds of other Scripture. This violates exegetical analysis by ignoring sound hermeneutics!

 

[sharonr]

To take the word "everything" to mean "absolute" is playing with Scripture and contradicts hundreds of other Scripture

Everything definition:
1. every single thing; every particular of an aggregate or total; all.
2. something extremely important:
All things or all of a group of things.
b. All relevant matters: told each other everything.
2. The most important fact or consideration: In business, timing is everything.
thefreedictionary.com

 

[DaPastor]

I said: Just as much as if a Pastor like Jim Jones tells a person in his congregation that he must obey him (which is totally Scriptural), that person will be responsible for his sin too.

You Said: The cuurch is suppose to submit to Christ, not the Pastor, no where in scripture it says to submit to the church leader, but it does tell wives to submit to there husbands. In scripture it says the head over man is Christ.

Scripture says: OBEY them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Hebrews 13:17

You quoted: But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

I say: I do not disagree with this passage.

You said: The church leaders dont all follow God the correct way, alot of times you have to distinguish between their lies and the truth of God. So we can not submit to everything the Pastor says, but only Gods word, and to Christ.

I say: Scripture says to obey and submit to him just as Scripture says to submit to your husband. In both cases, we are not to obey commands that cause us to disobey God. That is my consistent hermeneutic:

You said: God told women that man is the head of them, their husband so we are to submit to man, our head. Single ladies submit to Christ, because they dont have a husband, only Christ as their husband. When a women marries, she now has her husband as the head, now its man, then Christ.

The husband DOES NOT REPLACE CHRIST, anymore than the POPE replaces Christ. The husband is nothing more than a delegate that operates under delegated authority. His authority is limited to what the Bible advocates - period!

 

[DaPastor]

To take the word "everything" to mean "absolute" is playing with Scripture and contradicts hundreds of other Scripture

Everything definition:
1. every single thing; every particular of an aggregate or total; all.
2. something extremely important:
All things or all of a group of things.
b. All relevant matters: told each other everything.
2. The most important fact or consideration: In business, timing is everything.
thefreedictionary.com

The word "everything" apart from context is nothing more that a proof text for a pre text. In other words, so what... The word "everything" is limited and defined by the verse itself, and it can easily be seen that only as the Church is seen submitting to Christ, so a wife is to submit to her husband - in other words, the Church will never be told to disobey God, therefore, a wife cannot be told to disobey God. This is simple logic!

 

[DaPastor]

To take the word "everything" to mean "absolute" is playing with Scripture and contradicts hundreds of other Scripture

Everything definition:
1. every single thing; every particular of an aggregate or total; all.
2. something extremely important:
All things or all of a group of things.
b. All relevant matters: told each other everything.
2. The most important fact or consideration: In business, timing is everything.
thefreedictionary.com

A wife is to submit as UNTO THE LORD...meaning, only to the degree that the LORD will be pleased!

 

[sharonr]

DaPastor
The husband DOES NOT REPLACE CHRIST, anymore than the POPE replaces Christ. The husband is nothing more than a delegate that operates under delegated authority. His authority is limited to what the Bible advocates - period!

Well why does the bible say if you have questions ask your husband, why doesn't it say figure it our yourself. He's the head we go to. And God is the ultimate one directing everything, as I submit to my husband I'm submitting to Christ, Christ is the one who saves me but he gave me a husband to purify me, without spot or blemish. Single ladies are purified from Christ alone, and other people may help and guide her as well but married women, Christ is purifying us through our husbands. Our husbands are a tool God uses to purify.

 

[DaPastor]

If Eve was first deceived, and scripture tells women to learn in silence, wouldn't this be breaking the commandments when we try to teach the man, and tell them that this is wrong, or that is wrong? I find my self over and over again, trying to tell my hubby that is incorrect, and come to find out if I would listen I would understand, for example, how can I discern between right and wrong, being the weaker vessel, and my husband is my head who is to tell me what is right and wrong. If my husband is a sinner, and tells me to do something, and its sinful in my eyes, it may not be sinful in the Father's eyes to obey him, but sinful to disobey. All unrighteousness is sin.1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.There also is always an open door to not sin, and God will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear 1 Cor. 10:13 NKJV No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. So if that sinner is telling you to smoke, go drink, or even trying to deceive you, God will come and deal with that man accordingly and save you through it, that man also may not try to command you but only offer to you, and you have that choice to do accordingly, What man, knowing his wife is a believer, will do this to his wife? Also Paul makes it very clear to marry a man of God. 1 Cor.7:39 A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. But by her submissiveness to him, if he does not obey she can win him over. The bible does not make any breaks for the women.

Wow! The way out for the wife is for her to place her Savior as NUMBER ONE. You are to Love God with ALL your heart soul mind and strength. Breaking the first and greatest commandment is when a wife places her husband before God. ...but with the temptation will also make the way of escape.. obey God over man! Simple!