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The benefits of polygamous structure....

CecilW said:
With respect, J4C,

I suspect that most folks can think of those "negatives" quite easily, and do. However, the author of THIS thread was interested in a list of POSITIVES.

Perhaps you could start a thread of your own entitled, "The difficulties of polygamous structure ..." Then those who are primarily interested in ensuring that every positive has an equal and balancing negative will have a place to enumerate them.
Click to expand...

Hi Cecil,

I appreciate the input, and I understand what you are saying, but I'd like to hear from the author of the thread. My understanding wasn't that he was just wanting a thread on this group to list the positives, but that he was compiling this for use in a larger arena, perhaps as an aid to help people make an informed decision about polygamy.

If he is presenting only positives to the world in order to tout polygamy, then he would be doing everyone a disservice. Foolish people that thought polygamy was all great might get involved solely based upon the positives, not realizing that there are negatives associated specifically with polygamy as well. A balanced approach tends to show that polygamy is good and normal, but isn't for everyone.

You wouldn't want to want to choose a new occupation without first looking at the positives and negatives for you. You can say the same thing about marriage. In fact, some people need to weigh monogamy to see if the positives outweigh the negatives for themselves. Surely, we should do the same for polygamy, if we are to be wise as serpents.

The end result of not knowing what to expect of monogamy for the single person, both positives and negatives, is that marriages fall apart and the divorce rate climbs. I've seen the results of this in polygamy over the past years that I've observed it. The divorce rate among Christian polygamists has been much higher than the average because of participants not fully weighing all the factors before getting involved.

Nobody has to present negatives. It was simply a suggestion based upon my experience compiling a similar list, and with the way people get starry-eyed and stupid when they haven't weighed all aspects of a thing. I still think it is a wise idea.


John for Christ
 
The title of the thread seems to say it rather clearly. I'm sorry if it seems confusing.
 
Why would a man want more than one wife?
Why would a woman want her husband to have more than one wife?
Why would a woman want to share her house/family/husband with more than one wife?
Why would a normal single woman want to join a family instead of marrying monogamously?
Help! My daughter wants to marry into a poly family! What do I do about it?
Help! My husband wants to have a second wife! What do I do about it?
Help! My wife wants me to have a second wife! Where do I sign up? (Just kidding) What do i do about it?
What benefits does polygamy hold for the widow with children?
What are some of the struggles of polygamy?

The above list is copied from the original post. Copied and pasted for clarity.
 
CecilW said:
The title of the thread seems to say it rather clearly. I'm sorry if it seems confusing.
Click to expand...

Hi Cecil, Paul, and Everyone,

Pastor Whitten pointed out something that I had entirely missed. In the first message, Paul also asked what some of the struggles of polygamy were, so he also is approaching this from a balanced perspective and would like to know both sides of the picture.

It's been a long time since I've looked at this question. On our Yahoo group, which has been discussing this issue for the past 10+ years, this topic has come up numerous times. Just to help people think about the positives and negatives, here are some categories and some ideas to get started. Please help improve it!!!:


POLYGAMY POSITIVES

  • Economically can free women to have time for work or a career without sacrificing home and family.
  • Can help free women to pursue an education without sacrificing home and family.
  • Can provide for a better distribution of domestic chores and sharing the word load. Some women excel at different aspects of house-keeping. Many hands make light work, and women can often perform better when they are able to communicate with each other while working.
  • May help alleviate a woman's jealousy of other women.
  • May help keep a husband from roving for illicit sexual relationships.
  • For husband -- Greater sexual satisfaction if he has longed for another woman. Offers more sexual variety.
  • Is modeled more closely on the love that God has for all of His children, by showing that a man has the capacity to fully love more than one wife. (This is also modeled by a parent and their children, but not to the same extent.)
  • For wives -- Can offer a closer friendship between women than is possible in any other relationship. Other women cannot discuss and KNOW the intimate details of the same husband, nor do they normally live together when married. Each can sympathize because they know what the other is going through with her husband.
  • For wives -- Helps them have more "pull" in the household affairs, as they can "gang up" on a husband, without overstepping his authority as the leader.
  • In some polygamy, can lower the cost of living by living in a single home, while getting several incomes. Also can save by bulk purchasing of food and other products. Paradoxically, per capita cost of food and living space drops in larger families. Larger families with more active adults raises the standard of living even more.
  • For husbands -- Having more than one wife frees up time a husband may need for important issues, which time might otherwise be spent dealing with the abundant emotional issues of women (this is stated from a male point-of-view, of course; it's not that men don't love that women are emotional, but sometimes it becomes frustrating; another woman is so much better at consoling and empathizing than a man).


POLYGAMY NEGATIVES

  • In some polygamy, may add the expense of more than one household.
  • Potential for interpersonal issues that do not occur in monogamy, such as when wives may feel a husband takes sides.
  • May feel the need to hide polygamy from the friends, neighbors, church, and other portions of the public.
  • May be charged with a crime.
  • May cause issues in dealing with the community, such as in school, church, and civic organizations.
  • May not be able to obtain health or other insurance to cover your families' needs at the same lower levels as monogamist households.


MONOGAMY POSITIVES

  • Total cost of living is generally less.
  • Allows two close spouses more time to focus on just each other.


MONOGAMY NEGATIVES

  • Can be a particularly selfish relationship.
  • Often engenders jealousy over the "roving eye" of a husband.
  • Often leads to promiscuous sexual behavior by men, who may find themselves attracted to other women but may not know how to handle it.


There are plenty other things, but I'm tired of thinking about it tonight. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and ideas concerning these so far, and hope that people will keep adding to all four categories, and I hope that Paul can use some of this stuff.


John for Christ
 
When Shaul/Paul says that MARRIAGE will bring "trouble", but "I would spare you" (I Cor. 7:28)-- he addresses many if not most of the 'negative' issues above, and they have nothing to do with any distinction between "mono" and "poly" that the Bible does not address, but just MARRIAGE. There are many men who should never consider taking a second wife, but probably more still who can't/won't even properly cover the first.

Speaking for myself, and experience, I will add that the following - in the form of a question:

If a man has a wife who will not believe God -- or accept what He so clearly says in the Word -- why would her husband ever think she would follow him?

That most vital "benefit of polygynous STRUCTURE" to which I allude has nothing to do with polygyny per se, in other words - it has to do with Who is to be Master over that house - regardless of how many spouses dwell therein.
 
Mark C said:
When Shaul/Paul says that MARRIAGE will bring "trouble", but "I would spare you" (I Cor. 7:28)-- he addresses many if not most of the 'negative' issues above, and they have nothing to do with any distinction between "mono" and "poly" that the Bible does not address, but just MARRIAGE. There are many men who should never consider taking a second wife, but probably more still who can't/won't even properly cover the first.

Speaking for myself, and experience, I will add that the following - in the form of a question:

If a man has a wife who will not believe God -- or accept what He so clearly says in the Word -- why would her husband ever think she would follow him?

That most vital "benefit of polygynous STRUCTURE" to which I allude has nothing to do with polygyny per se, in other words - it has to do with Who is to be Master over that house - regardless of how many spouses dwell therein.
Click to expand...

Hi Mark C.,

I was referring to the message of Paul that started this thread, not Paul the apostle. I can see how that could cause confusion. "Paul not the apostle" which started the thread asked in his initial message what struggles might be expected in polygamy. I interpret that as the "negatives".

Sorry for any confusion in that last message. I should have defined which Paul a bit better...


John for Christ
 
Mark C said:
I was not at all confused, John.
Click to expand...

Hi Mark C.,

Good to hear. I wasn't certain if there might have been confusion over the two Pauls.

The trouble and struggles I mentioned occur in all marriages, and even some in the single life. However, some of those occur with greater frequency in either monogamy or polygamy, depending upon many dynamics.

For instance, there are many polygamists that maintain separate households for each of their wives. That is undoubtedly a greater expense than a single household. On the other hand, even some wealthy single people own more than one home. The point isn't that owning more homes is a negative in itself, but that the expense, brought on by the belief that wives should have their own households, can be a common negative in polygamy. Nobody has to agree with me on that. It's just an observation which people can feel free to believe, disbelieve, add to, or modify as they desire. The point is to increase communication and exposure of many different viewpoints so that we can all learn.

Other polygamy negatives, such as the possibility of being charged with bigamy or dealing with the public's negative view of polygamy, don't occur in monogamy at all.

It's difficult to me to see how polygamy could be as selfish as monogamy, for instance. Of course it wouldn't occur in every instance, but it seems less likely in polygamy, due to the necessity of learning to deal with a situation that is more inclusive rather than less inclusive.

While I know that Paul the apostle addressed a number of marriage issues, I don't believe that he really addressed a number of the issues that I brought up. Even if he did, it seems to me that there are distinct differences in several of those areas between monogamy and polygamy.

I know a Christian woman who promotes the idea that men and women are essentially equal in pretty much all things. Somehow she cannot see the obvious differences between them. I feel that monogamy and polygamy have many obvious differences brought on by entirely different dynamics. Polygamy isn't just two or more marriages by one man, it's a whole lot more.


John for Christ
 
Other polygamy negatives, such as the possibility of being charged with bigamy or dealing with the public's negative view of polygamy, don't occur in monogamy at all.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but not in reality. Such distinctions are FAR less important than the fact that MARRIAGE has become -- at least in the populist mindset of "demonocracy" -- the property of Caesar: Egalitarian, "equal", and governed in too many cases in direct OPPOSITION to His Word (e.g., civil unions, obviously).

When I was charged with a felony (no, I am not kidding) for quoting the Word (it seems to have been Mark 10:9 that REALLY raised the ire) in a private email to my helpmeet, polygyny ostensibly had nothing to do with it. But patriarchy certainly did!

Those who think that a nation which has "forgotten God", and turned from its own Supreme Law so as to literally rewrite His ordinances for marriage will be leave them alone if they let Caesar control only one wife. I wasn't kidding when I quoted Paul/Shaul concerning marriage. The prince of this world hates the fact that YHVH Wrote the rules - and not him.
 
John_for_Christ said:
POLYGAMY POSITIVES

  • Economically can free women to have time for work or a career without sacrificing home and family.
  • Can help free women to pursue an education without sacrificing home and family.
  • Can provide for a better distribution of domestic chores and sharing the word load. Some women excel at different aspects of house-keeping. Many hands make light work, and women can often perform better when they are able to communicate with each other while working.
  • May help alleviate a woman's jealousy of other women.
  • May help keep a husband from roving for illicit sexual relationships.
  • For husband -- Greater sexual satisfaction if he has longed for another woman. Offers more sexual variety.
  • Is modeled more closely on the love that God has for all of His children, by showing that a man has the capacity to fully love more than one wife. (This is also modeled by a parent and their children, but not to the same extent.)
  • For wives -- Can offer a closer friendship between women than is possible in any other relationship. Other women cannot discuss and KNOW the intimate details of the same husband, nor do they normally live together when married. Each can sympathize because they know what the other is going through with her husband.
  • For wives -- Helps them have more "pull" in the household affairs, as they can "gang up" on a husband, without overstepping his authority as the leader.
  • In some polygamy, can lower the cost of living by living in a single home, while getting several incomes. Also can save by bulk purchasing of food and other products. Paradoxically, per capita cost of food and living space drops in larger families. Larger families with more active adults raises the standard of living even more.
  • For husbands -- Having more than one wife frees up time a husband may need for important issues, which time might otherwise be spent dealing with the abundant emotional issues of women (this is stated from a male point-of-view, of course; it's not that men don't love that women are emotional, but sometimes it becomes frustrating; another woman is so much better at consoling and empathizing than a man).


POLYGAMY NEGATIVES

  • In some polygamy, may add the expense of more than one household.
  • Potential for interpersonal issues that do not occur in monogamy, such as when wives may feel a husband takes sides.
  • May feel the need to hide polygamy from the friends, neighbors, church, and other portions of the public.
  • May be charged with a crime.
  • May cause issues in dealing with the community, such as in school, church, and civic organizations.
  • May not be able to obtain health or other insurance to cover your families' needs at the same lower levels as monogamist households.


MONOGAMY POSITIVES

  • Total cost of living is generally less.
  • Allows two close spouses more time to focus on just each other.


MONOGAMY NEGATIVES

  • Can be a particularly selfish relationship.
  • Often engenders jealousy over the "roving eye" of a husband.
  • Often leads to promiscuous sexual behavior by men, who may find themselves attracted to other women but may not know how to handle it.


There are plenty other things, but I'm tired of thinking about it tonight. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and ideas concerning these so far, and hope that people will keep adding to all four categories, and I hope that Paul can use some of this stuff.


John for Christ
Click to expand...

I agree that both mono and poly marriages can have problems but I also agree with you that some of those problems are exclusive to one or the other. You offered some good points in all categories, as well. Thanks.
 
Angel 3 said:
I agree that both mono and poly marriages can have problems but I also agree with you that some of those problems are exclusive to one or the other. You offered some good points in all categories, as well. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Hi Angel3,

I'm not sure about all the points. I'm just presenting my thoughts. My hope is that people will join in and correct any mistakes I made and offer their own suggestions.

Like Paul-not-the-apostle, I'm very interested in presenting this kind of thing--with testimonials and personal accounts--to people that are considering this aspect of polygamy.

There are two types of people that believe in polygamy (and we want to encourage both types): Those that become polygamists and those that agree with them on the issue of polygamy. In my opinion, we want to give good information to both of these types of people, so that they will either understand what they are getting into, and/or that they will know some of the practical aspects of polygamy.


John for Christ
 
I talked to a lawyer in our church and he states! "If a man does not legaly marry more than one wife, then he can not be charged with bigamy." He did say how ever many states do have polygamy laws wich they can charge you if you violate them with up to 10 years in prison. He says although it is very rare cause if you are not part of the FLDS unless you claim it to be true it is very hard to prosecute. He also said most western states turn a blind eye seeing as there have only been 4 convictions in the last 10 years out side of FLDS but even those guys were cultist who were arranging forced marriges. I just seen a post about bigamy so I figured I'd ask and put it up!
 
Revgill87123 said:
I talked to a lawyer in our church and he states! "If a man does not legaly marry more than one wife, then he can not be charged with bigamy." He did say how ever many states do have polygamy laws wich they can charge you if you violate them with up to 10 years in prison. He says although it is very rare cause if you are not part of the FLDS unless you claim it to be true it is very hard to prosecute. He also said most western states turn a blind eye seeing as there have only been 4 convictions in the last 10 years out side of FLDS but even those guys were cultist who were arranging forced marriges. I just seen a post about bigamy so I figured I'd ask and put it up!
Click to expand...

Hi Revgill,

Well, there was a case in the last few years where a man was charged with polygamy even though he had not been legally married--where legal marriage means to obtain state approval and a marriage certificate. I cannot recall the name of the guy at the moment, but it might have been Tom Green(?).

Anyway, the law was interpreted in such a way that even though he was not legally married, he and his wives believed themselves to be married, and so they were considered to have broken the law. Now if they had not said they were married, and had not told their friends and families the same thing, but simply lived together, he probably could not have been charged with bigamy.

It's not right, but that's what happened, and that's the type of thing that frequently does happen when the state wants to prosecute someone for something that it seen to be socially undesirable. Justice isn't always meted out fairly and impartially.

My understanding is that the only way to be truly safe from prosecution for bigamy is to not claim to be married (unless you do so privately between your wives and you). However, the chances of being prosecuted are slim, and there's reason to believe that one might possibly be able to take such a case to the Supreme Court and win.

One thing that always bothers me is that the wives are never prosecuted in these cases, even though they were participating in polygamy knowingly. That just doesn't seem right...


John for Christ
 
John_for_Christ said:
Revgill87123 said:
I talked to a lawyer in our church and he states! "If a man does not legaly marry more than one wife, then he can not be charged with bigamy." He did say how ever many states do have polygamy laws wich they can charge you if you violate them with up to 10 years in prison. He says although it is very rare cause if you are not part of the FLDS unless you claim it to be true it is very hard to prosecute. He also said most western states turn a blind eye seeing as there have only been 4 convictions in the last 10 years out side of FLDS but even those guys were cultist who were arranging forced marriges. I just seen a post about bigamy so I figured I'd ask and put it up!
Click to expand...

Hi Revgill,

Well, there was a case in the last few years where a man was charged with polygamy even though he had not been legally married--where legal marriage means to obtain state approval and a marriage certificate. I cannot recall the name of the guy at the moment, but it might have been Tom Green(?).

John for Christ
Click to expand...

It was Tom Green and I think that case was 5 or more years ago. A marriage without a license is called a common-law marriage in some states, and some states do consider those forms of marriages for legal purposes whether it be to prosecute or otherwise. Things can be done like challenging the system in court, but those who've tried to do so claiming that marriages are a religious practice have failed. So perhaps another argument is in need, like the sames ones that were used in cases to approve of interracial marriages and gay marriage (i.e. protecting the rights of the miniority from the majority, banning these marriages is *discrimination*, unconstitutional, etc.). Anyways, that's a different story.

One problem I have is explaining on the benefits of polygamy on YouTube. Lots of people keep thinking that polygamy is ONLY about the male wanting sex from different women. I agree with them somewhat in that sex in polygamy can be a one-sided benefit for the man since he gets sex from different women (2 or more), but then if both or however many women love the guy and are committed to him, and choose to share him, then shouldn't the wives in that type of relationship be entitled to have sex with their man?

Of course, there are those men who would only want to be in a polygamous relationship just for the sex, but that's not all men. There's also those benefits for wives to factor in which people have done a good job laying out in this thread.
 
Angel 3 said:
It was Tom Green and I think that case was 5 or more years ago. A marriage without a license is called a common-law marriage in some states, and some states do consider those forms of marriages for legal purposes whether it be to prosecute or otherwise. Things can be done like challenging the system in court, but those who've tried to do so claiming that marriages are a religious practice have failed. So perhaps another argument is in need, like the sames ones that were used in cases to approve of interracial marriages and gay marriage (i.e. protecting the rights of the miniority from the majority, banning these marriages is *discrimination*, unconstitutional, etc.). Anyways, that's a different story.

One problem I have is explaining on the benefits of polygamy on YouTube. Lots of people keep thinking that polygamy is ONLY about the male wanting sex from different women. I agree with them somewhat in that sex in polygamy can be a one-sided benefit for the man since he gets sex from different women (2 or more), but then if both or however many women love the guy and are committed to him, and choose to share him, then shouldn't the wives in that type of relationship be entitled to have sex with their man?

Of course, there are those men who would only want to be in a polygamous relationship just for the sex, but that's not all men. There's also those benefits for wives to factor in which people have done a good job laying out in this thread.
Click to expand...

Hi Angel3,

Although this isn't the point of this thread, I went back and did a little research on the marriage laws. Tom Green was prosecuted in Utah (way back in 2002!), which happens to be a common-law state.

Common-law marriages are recognized in eleven states and the District of Columbia, Utah being one of them. In Tom Green's case, he was convicted of bigamy because he was married to multiple wives under the common-law. The criteria in Utah for common-law marriage are:

(1) They must be of legal age and capable of giving consent,
(2) They must be legally capable of entering a solemnized marriage,
(3) They must have cohabited,
(4) They must mutually assume marital rights, duties, and obligations,
(5) They must hold themselves out as and have acquired a uniform and general reputation as husband and wife.

These same criteria are generally similar for the other ten states (and D.C.) that recognize common-law marriage: Alabama, Colorado, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, New Hampshire (posthumously), Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, and in the District of Columbia.

So, it seems to me that if you stay out of those states, then you COULD live together as man and wife without having a legal marriage, thus insulating yourself from the charge of bigamy. That leaves 39 states where a polygamist would be immune from prosecution for bigamy as long as he only had one or less legal marriages.

This is different than I've always understood it, but it's also positive for polygamists that don't live in those twelve jurisdictions. None of them are that great anyway. Move to Oregon, it rocks and has no common-law marriage!!!


John for Christ
 
i believe that the reason that they went after tom green was because of the age of one of the girls (13) and welfare fraud.
 
steve said:
i believe that the reason that they went after tom green was because of the age of one of the girls (13) and welfare fraud.
Click to expand...

That may be the case. Prosecutors usually won't pursue bigamy charges unless there are other crimes involved, like underage sex/marriage, tax fraud, welfare fraud, etc.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John_for_Christ,

Thanks for the information you posted.
 
I see that someone has already reminded the forum about the "welfare" issue in the Tom Green case.

The bottom line, I submit, is that one cannot claim to be serving YHVH and not Caesar while simultaneously taking Caesar's money. Dipping into the "public trough", in other words, is at least as much of a submission to "another master" as taking his license.


(That doesn't mean that we will not, and indeed are not already, seeing efforts to expand Caesar's jurisdiction over EVERYONE who draws breath. But it seems clear to me that those who take welfare from the State have no leg to stand on -- before Caesar, or God -- when it comes to who they rely on for support and provision.)
 
John_for_Christ said:
POLYGAMY NEGATIVES

  • In some polygamy, may add the expense of more than one household.
  • Potential for interpersonal issues that do not occur in monogamy, such as when wives may feel a husband takes sides.
  • May feel the need to hide polygamy from the friends, neighbors, church, and other portions of the public.
  • May be charged with a crime.
  • May cause issues in dealing with the community, such as in school, church, and civic organizations.
  • May not be able to obtain health or other insurance to cover your families' needs at the same lower levels as monogamist households.

John for Christ
Click to expand...

In response to the part that's has red font:

Now that we may be on the verge of nationalized healthcare, virtually anyone should be able to get health insurance and I'm not sure about the details but they may even be mandated to. This may have its good and bad but as some good at least a polygamous family won't have to worry about their employer not wanting to cover the entire family. For those who want to legalize polygamy, this may be one less issue that you'll have to worry about.
 
A good question. Why would a woman prefer polygamy over monogamy, and I would answer in reverse: why would a woman prefer monogamy over polygamy. Answer the second question, and you might get insights into answering the first.

One would expect that a woman would prefer a share in a rich, supportive husband than a full share in a feckless, incompetent husband. This is conspicuously not the case in most societies in the world, including first world societies.

A common attitude is that rising prosperity makes marriage more practical. True, but a rising tide lifts all the boats, so rising prosperity also makes polygamy more practical.

If society accepts polygamy, a woman whose marriage has broken down can choose any other man as a replacement husband, whether he is married or not. This seems to me to be a good argument in favour of polygamy.

There are plenty of pulp romance novellas for the female market, but as far as I know, they are all monogamous romances, and none are polygamous. Why?

This suggests to me that most women have an inborn preference for monogamy, and a strong aversion to polygamy, but I do not know why.
 
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