Torah keepers and sacred name.

[GivenMercy]

Deuteronomy 30 outlines the summary of blessings and cursings for obedience and rebellion to His commandments, respectively, and makes it clear to us that they are "not too difficult" for us. Yeshua, in addition to His observation that not "one yod or tiddle" would pass from His Torah until "heaven and earth" pass -- which clearly has NOT occurred! -- also made the simple request that "If you love Me, keep My commands." Seems to me that my "reasonable service" is to obey my Master, King, and Kinsman-Redeemer. Not because I expect to "earn salvation" by being "under" anything (except His authority) - but because of what He has already done, and because I do love Him.

This is the heart of the matter in an nutshell -- we no longer keep the law out of obligation and fear of punishment -- Jesus paid the full price of all sin -- but, now we keep the law (that has been written on our hearts instead of a tablet of stone) "because of what He has already done" and because we love Him! We do not have to walk in "fear" because when we do "mess up" - even those sins have already been paid for - we only need to repent and get back up and keep going.

Paul said that in the past the law was a harsh schoolmaster -- that's sort of like when our kids are toddlers and we are harsh with them about things like not running across the street. They do not run across the street then - not because they have any kind of understanding about what could happen to them - but, only because they are afraid of the punishment that will follow if they do so! That's what the law USED to be like -- the people did not - and could not have any kind of spiritual understanding becasue Jesus had not yet come and they did not have the Holy Spirit within them which gives spiritual insight. So, because God had to deal with them on their level of natural understanding - everything had to be spelled out for them, including the "curses" that would follow if they did not keep His instruction.

For us to obey the law now, then - out of the fear of the curses of not keeping it - would be like that toddler to now be a grown man - and to run across the street one day without remembering to look both ways - and then begging everyone to not "tell" on him because of fear he would be punished. When we have accepted the gift of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus, we have the Holy Spirit - and are then motivated (or should be motivated) by LOVE. Just like Paul, then, we understand that although "all things are lawful, all does not edify".

Don & Shari

PS: Remember I Cor 13 -- No matter what we do - if we are not doing it in Love - it is pretty much meaningless.......... (of all that remains - the greatest is Love)

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, Jesus said that the Law would not pass away. However, what does that mean? It is obvious, for example, that there are to be no more blood sacrifices. How is that determined? What hermeneutic establishes this truth? There needs to be a consistent hermeneutic established that anyone can apply in order to establish what part of the Law applies and what part of the Law does not apply. So, what principles do you use?

so when Paul was in the temple for his cleansing for his vow, what do you make of his preparation for sacrifice? He seems to see no problem with sacrifices, so I don't see any reason to either. In fact, Hebrew indicates that sacrifices were still happening when that book was written, the point being made in Hebrews was the blood of bulls and goats didn't take away sin, not that they were done away with. They didn't take away sin in the day of Cain and Abel, not in Abraham's day, nor in David's day. Nope, not even in Yahushua's day. That's the point we should take away from this, our best efforts cannot save us, it's the redemption price paid by our very creator to redeem us from our choice of giving ourselves to the serpent. Like it or not, it was our choice, each and every one of us, we can't blame Adam and Eve.

As far as the annunciation, whatever...... but it seems a shame people just substitute any word they like instead of even a feeble attempt at their best understanding of transliteration... talk about making his name empty and void. Who will proclaim his great mercy and justice? I will, even if I'm the last man standing!!

 

[Anonymous]

Hi sorry i am a little retarded about how to post right on these forums. If anyone wants to fix what I did go ahead, the previous post I wanted to put together with these comments but anyway here goes. According to my eschatology Paul was still preparing for sacrifices in NT because Israel was still supposed to do this until the end. Jesus's work on the cross was finished but the "End" had not come (until 70 ad) so the sacrifices would continue until then. The sacrifices today the way the Torah says to do it are not even possible as far as I know. Where is the preisthood? Anyway I was trying to respond to the guy called Face. Ok thanks.

 

[welltan]

so then you do what with the following verse? and the surrounding companion verses?
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Thats why we need Christ. Realizing sin is a trangression of the law solves nothing, but does point to a need. This condemnation is upon us already. Being made right with God is Christ's work. We break the law before Christ's work in us and we break the law after Christ's work in us. We are law breakers and Christ does the work. Christ said he forgave sins and they became angry at him for it. When Christ said "it is finished" what part of "finished" do we not understand. Not eating pork is healthy and so is circumcision. Nothing wrong with being a healthy Christian.

 

[Anonymous]

Well I think that the other people on here including FACE believe what you are saying. I think what he thinks is that yes Jesus saves us, does the work and all that good stuff but maybe because "not one dot or tittle will pass untill all is fulfilled" so maybe we should be doing OT stuff. Because all not fulfilled, world not passed away. see? I think end has come so my explanation of Paul going to temple getting ready for sacrifices was that end had not come and that point but now it has, see? Anyway, I beg to differ on the circumcision part. I think also Paul (or peter?) thought that it wasn't for gentiles. Anybody remember that verse? True Circumcision is of the heart anyway.

 

[^_^]

agreed, true cirucumcision is of the heart, even Moses and the other prophets knew that, in fact, they said so several times.
My stance on that is similar to the rest, how can one say their heart is circumcised if they are too stiffnecked to do what Yahweh said to do? To me, timing is everything, one has to realize these folks weren't running around with Bibles in their backpacks, not all had money like the Ethiopian eunch that Philip ran into, they could not afford scrolls. So, what to do? Just like is stated in the Acts 15 council, don't forbid these people from coming, let them come, give some basics eliminating some of the most offensive behaviour to get them started, then the part about going to synagogue where Moses is taught will take care of the rest. Maybe I'm a fool for seeing it that way, but in practice even most churches still operate that way. You can have some hardened criminal come to church, they'll ask him to check his booze, guns and smokes at the door, but they won't force their confession of faith on him, that's something he has to do on his own.

 

[Mark C]

I beg to differ on the circumcision part. I think also Paul (or peter?) thought that it wasn't for gentiles.

...true circumcision is of the heart.

Some, as Paul reminded us, would pray to be "grafted in".

Circumcision "profits nothing" so far as salvation is concerned; neither does avoiding things which the Bible says are not "food". But they both have clear health benefits -- call it avoidance of curses, perhaps -- and the Bible promises that obedience results in blessings.

I have written before, both on this forum and elsewhere, about how it was a study of three things which convinced me that the Bible was True, in more ways than I could comprehend, and that the topics of what is "food" (and what is not) and marriage, including polygyny, were two of those. What I had always "heard it said" was not, in fact, what was Written.

The study of the dietary strictures in Leviticus, and what "modern science" had discovered about DNA, disease transmission, and even enzymes with names like "putrescene" and "cadaverene", eventually convinced me that our Designer knew things about how we are made that Science has yet to comprehend. What He is still teaching me about marriage has convinced me that obedience to Him is rewarded, whether we understand the specifics or not. But even if that were not the case, or if we were not able to discern it, it is enough for me that my King and Redeemer has asked it.

 

[welltan]

You write well. Your children haven't sucked all your brains out, as you put it. Ha.

And I agree with Mark about many things being healthy and worth adopting as part of one's lifestyle. Of course circumcision is not necessary.

And I know that understanding the Hebrew meanings of words can be important to study. I have just too often seen individuals get bogged down in laying the foundation again when it is already poured and solid.

 

[Anonymous]

Jesus's work on the cross was finished but the "End" had not come (until 70 ad) so the sacrifices would continue until then.

I believe you are referring to the "end of the age", specifically the Mosaic age, as opposed to "the age to come" or the Messianic age (in which we now live). One of the reasons there is a lot of confusion regarding eschatology is because we often don't understand or distinguish between the terms "this age" and "the age to come" when we come across them in the New Testament Scriptures. You are correct that the end of the Mosaic age did not occur in 30 AD at the cross, but rather in 70 AD, one full generation later, when ALL law and prophecy was fulfilled/completed. Good catch!

Matthew 5:17-18: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to COMPLETE. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till ALL be done."

David

 

[welltan]

Matthew 5:17-18: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to COMPLETE. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till ALL be done."

David[/quote]

Since Christ completed the Law, this requires us to look at it differently then the prophets and Israelites did during the Old Testament times.
The Law was not complete then and if we treat the Law exactly as they did, we treat it as an uncompleted work. When Christ said he completed it, then that is exactly what He did. That is why the course of events in trying to keep as much of the Law as possible slowly leads away from a faith in Christ's work, and away from Christ being active in one's life. One sees it as uncompleted and naturally in the desire for righteousness then seeks to complete it, which is against the idea of Christ completing it. He shed his blood on the cross and it hurts Him to have his children to say I accept you as my Savior but I also feel I need to do "this or that" for my own salvation. "This or that" may even have a logical basis but with a limited amount of time and a directive to preach the gospel, the emphasis is in the wrong place.
Christians like me who hopefully seem to rest so peacefully in Christ's work and end each discussion with "what would Jesus do" sometimes are considered simplistic or uneducated or unaware of the importance of the Hebrew influence, terms, meanings, etc. (My B.S. degree and seminary and graduate school work and my resulting ignorance have never qualified me to aid Christ's blood on the cross, though I understand the subtle temptation) They/we are often viewed as a nuisance in the Hebrew discussions. We think, dwell on, and stayed soaked with the name of Jesus. My desire is not to complete the law, but to know Jesus, who did complete it. We must realize we /I can never climb that cross and do what Christ did.
Knowing the law is to know we are incapable of it. Christ knew it but was capable of it. We can not complete the law and we can not do what Christ did on the cross. Any treatment of the Law should be filled with the name "Jesus" and "Christ" and be pervaded with what Christ did. And this to me seems the proper course especially since He completed what we are talking about.

 

[Mark C]

The Law was not complete then and if we treat the Law exactly as they did, we treat it as an uncompleted work.

I generally find that discussions of this form, welltan, benefit from a closer examination of some of the Hebrew words (even, or perhaps especially, when the Hebrew or Aramaic comments of the Savior are filtered through Greek in the interim).

One of the biggest revelations for me was the recognition that the word "torah" is usually far better translated in most contexts as "teaching and understanding", instead of simply being rendered as "law". (And apologies in advance for any repetition on my part here -- this is a topic that I have written of many times, here and elsewhere.)

Many aspects of the letters of the apostles, particularly Paul/Shaul, make much more sense when understood in that context. (For example, the "schoolmaster" references; once we understand His "teaching and understanding", we are able to make good judgments on our own without need for one. Certainly the same is true of elements of that teaching like food as well, or even circumcision.)

The other example (as an engineer and physicist by background) that hits home for me is the "Law of Gravity".** I would say that the Designer of the Universe hasn't CHANGED His "teaching and understanding" concerning gravity; it's still proportional to "G*m1*m2 divided by the radius squared". :roll: It can still "kill you", or bring the curse of lying crushed if you leap off of a cliff, but can appear to be 'violated' by airplanes. The fact that we can fly, in other words, doesn't indicate that His "law" is done away with. (In fact, as a pilot - I'd advise against flying with any aviator who seems to allow cockiness to override good judgment. It is still VERY possible to be cursed by that 'law'.)

IMHO, what has been "completed" or "made full [of meaning]" was His perfect Sacrifice for us. "Heaven and earth" have certainly not passed; indeed, there is much of prophecy yet to be fulfilled. (I am one who teaches that He fulfilled His Spring Feasts perfectly during His first coming; I believe will will see the Fall Feasts, starting with Trumpets and culminating with Tabernacles and a joyous feast, in the future.) And He was quite critical of those who "added to" His Word (and increased men's burdens, changed times and seasons, etc.)

The same distinction can be made concerning salvation, of course. We cannot "earn" salvation by our own efforts any more than we can "earn" eternal life by "keeping" the Law of Gravity. It's by His grace that we have been given life; a good understanding of His "teaching and understanding" will help us to live it here "more abundantly".


__________________________________

** Indeed, all of His creation, from the laws of physics to God's Iron Law that we reap what we sow seems to have that same characteristic. From the equations of motion, to electromagnetics, to economics, to the way He made us, things are what they are because He created them within a very specific framework.

 

[^_^]

To the poster who says Yahushua completed the law:

Are you saying completion then has nothing to do with compliance?
As in a building inspector comes into a house for the final inspection to give occupancy and pronounces the house complete.
Does that mean the wiring, plumbing, drywall, lumber, carpet and all the exterior treatments are no longer valid?
Of course not, they still function as they are designed, which was to prepare said dwelling for the occupant.

Really, who occupies your heart? Does your lifestyle reflect that? Or is it reflecting a different occupant?

 

[welltan]

The structure and benefit of good wiring and building your spiritual life to code is not a problem. I only continue my alarm about law or Torah keeping when that is what is mainly or only what is spoken of when fellowshiping (which you can not really tell from just an internet forum). If you have ever sat and talked with a friend that has abandoned Christ to follow only that path, it can be frustrating. Keeping Christian fellowship is very important and "Old Testament only" is something like "King James only" to me.

 

[welltan]

Also I would like to point out that the Jewish nation itself has different opinions on how much of the law to keep, and different groups (denominations) to fit these opinions. Not feeling a need to keep all the law does not seem to eliminate Jewish people from Jewish people, so at the vary least we should not be divisive ourselves on it. I believe the Jews are God's chosen and I am adopted. I do not mind that the Jews probably do not consider us adopted. But maybe someday they will.

 

[^_^]

Most of my friends are not Torah keepers if that gives you any comfort, nor do I run around condemning them. That's not the point of this discussion, to point fingers or offer condemnation, but rather to offer insight into understandings. If we can encourage each other to good, possibly even using the guidelines we are given to show what good is, then is not love being fulfilled?

Part of the reason I even started this thread is because it seems that more here than possibly on another forum understand that digging into what is called Old Testament for guiding principles is acceptable. I've seen people here quote passages on how family members should get along, what the 'legal' precedents for taking addtional wives, etc is, so I felt alot more free to discuss this subject on biblicalfamilies than on some other forums.
The whole purpose of this is to show a bit how I've been set free from man's traditions, and have seen much more peace, understanding and fulfillment following Yahweh's instructions. If you can only imagine the burden lifted off of me that society in general had placed on me, you might realise my viewpoint of the passage "my yoke is easy, my burden is light"

 

[Anonymous]

"Heaven and earth" have certainly not passed; indeed, there is much of prophecy yet to be fulfilled. (I am one who teaches that He fulfilled His Spring Feasts perfectly during His first coming; I believe will will see the Fall Feasts, starting with Trumpets and culminating with Tabernacles and a joyous feast, in the future.)

I'm confused. You're saying that "Heaven and earth have certainly not passed". Yet Jesus is quoted in Matt. 5:18 that "till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done." If "heaven and earth" (whatever that might mean) have not passed away, then surely neither has the slightest bit of the Torah. If we take Jesus at His Word, then every single element of Torah would have to still be applicable to us today. Is this how you see things? I don't see any way around Jesus' words if you assume "heaven and earth" did not pass away yet. My eschatology is very different from the usual pop theology but I believe He fulfilled ALL the Torah and ALL the Prophets. Otherwise, we are still waiting for fulfillment and not all has been fulfilled/completed. I don't see how we can have it both ways.

David

 

[Mark C]

If "heaven and earth" (whatever that might mean) have not passed away, then surely neither has the slightest bit of the Torah. If we take Jesus at His Word, then every single element of Torah would have to still be applicable to us today. Is this how you see things?

Precisely, David - that was my point. (And His, as when He said through Malachi that He "changes not".)

But I have addressed the English word "fulfilled" already; likewise that there are still prophecies that await us. Listen for the shofar.

 

[Mark C]

And besides, when Paul wrote that

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...

didn't he mean "every single element of Torah" as well?

 

[Anonymous]

If "heaven and earth" (whatever that might mean) have not passed away, then surely neither has the slightest bit of the Torah. If we take Jesus at His Word, then every single element of Torah would have to still be applicable to us today. Is this how you see things?

Precisely, David - that was my point. (And His, as when He said through Malachi that He "changes not".)

But I have addressed the English word "fulfilled" already; likewise that there are still prophecies that await us. Listen for the shofar.

Okay, I guess I understand your view then. You're saying that all Torah still applies to New Covenant believers, including circumcision, dietary laws, beard shaving, Levitical priesthood, tithing, animal sacrifice, sabbath observance, temple observance, etc? If not "one jot or one tittle" has passed from the Torah, this is clearly unavoidable and non-negotiable. As I understand it, this would mean that the New Covenant is but an extension to the Old Covenant and we, as believers today, are still under the entire Mosaic Law. I don't agree with this view, but I understand it.

Incidentally, I do agree that He fulfilled the Spring Feasts perfectly, although just as with the first type, after the period of 40 years in the wilderness (between giving the law and entering into the promised land), I believe one generation later He fulfilled the Fall Feasts precisely on time, just as He predicted. In my eschatalogical view, 70 AD marked the judgment of God against physical Israel and the end of the Mosaic Covenant for all time. We are now living in the Messianic Age, not the Mosaic Age, and all law and prophecy has been completely fulfilled. I know this clashes with pop theology regarding "end times" teachings, but I believe this is what Scripture teaches.

 

[welltan]

Perhaps the Law not passing away meant that the condemnation and unobtainable standard set by the law has not passed away and that is why we need Christ. For contrast, if it were possible for the Law to pass away, then Christ would not have needed to go to the cross. He or we could have just waited for it to pass away and then we would have been justified by default.
Being required to nail boards together in a certain way does not mean that a house will ever be built. And when Christ finished the house, it does not mean that the house disappeared, only that one can just come in out of the rain inside the Christ built house.
I have seen my sins and my hope is in them nailed to the cross with Christ, rather than me trying to nail them to the Law.