Torah keepers and sacred name.

[Mark C]

I'll take a brief pass at this one as well; admittedly, a full response will be pretty lengthy:

1. How do you deal with the Scriptures written in the New Testament that seem to suggest that it is no longer necessary to practice Sabbath keeping and the feasts (Col. 2:14-16; Gal. 4:10; Rom. 14:5)?

I respectfully suggest that such interpretations are very much in error. Most importantly, because our Savior specifically and repeatedly said otherwise, and NEVER changed His mind or His Word on the topic. ("not one yod or tiddle"; "heaven and earth" have not passed; those who teach otherwise will be called "least in the kingdom", and others. Some of this has been discussed before, even in this thread, so I won't repeat. My own proof text is the simple imperative, "If you love Me, keep My commands." Which? The ones He said were "forever", or "a perpetual statute", or similar words that mean "I change not".)

Briefly:

Actually, you left out the best one; Acts 15, esp. 18-21:

"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
But that we write unto them... [the famous 'Four Things']
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

In other words, as an excellent Bible teacher once explained, "once we get 'em cleaned up enough to get in the door, the REST of the things they need to learn are taught EVERYWHERE, EVERY SABBATH." Paul, the consummate Torah scholar, knew that they then would be taught, every Sabbath!

Col 2:14-16 -- it was the CURSE of the law, "which we broke" that is "against us". By becoming sin for us, our Kinsman-Redeemer took that curse on Himself. "But, shall we sin more, that grace might abound? Heaven forbid!" Having been taught by the Master, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Indeed, we should know better. We obey Him because we love Him, and it is our "reasonable service" - as bondservants to the Most High.

Oh, and BTW - I can honestly say that I have often been called a "judaizer" or "legalistic", because I love my Master and choose to serve Him forever - as best as I can, and know. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat...or in respect of a set apart day...or of the Sabbaths..." is quite a comfort!

Romans 14:5 "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

This is true. And I do not claim that avoiding pork, or observing His Sabbaths, are "salvation issues". While "iron sharpens iron", we should not "engender strife". Obedience to God brings BLESSINGS. (Deut. 30, among many others.) I witness this fact to others, and observe as well that IF we love Him, keeping His commands is a CHOICE. It is a choice this bondservant makes freely, and joyfully.

And Galatians. "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth...?
...Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" It is the "torah", God's teaching and understanding which SHOW us what sin, and obedience, IS - that we might KNOW our Kinsman-Redeemer, and understand what He has done for us, so that we will CHOOSE LIFE, and have it more abundantly - by walking in obedience before Him!

I honestly believe, Pastor Randy, that most people literally read Galatians BACKWARD, and miss Paul's point ENTIRELY. BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US, we should give Him thanks, and obey Him! (Peter was right, of course- "As also in all [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." II Peter 3:16)

A quick reference to a couple of the last questions. Paul evidently often spoke late. It is not surprising that, since the Hebrew Sabbath ended at dusk, but the Roman day at midnight, there would be overlap, and even eventual confusion -- especially since those who had financial business or other items to deal with would have naturally approached those tasks with brothers in Him AFTER dark, or chosen simply to meet the next day.

As to the change of Sabbath, there are Catholic sources (I'll have to find them, don't have references at hand) that claim that the change to Sunday was NOT Biblical in any way, but instead (and this is almost a quote) serve as "proof" of the "Church's apostolic authority" to rewrite God's times and seasons! He clearly said otherwise. I believe that I have seen significant historic evidence of the influence of Constantine, and Sun-god worship. The change of the Sabbath to "Sun-god-day" was only one of the earliest in a succession of replacements of God's commandments with the pagan 'traditions' of man.

 

[^_^]

1. Do you have the references to the feasts in the New Testament?
2. Do the feasts you practice come from the Bible or from post AD70 Judaism?
3. I understand the typology of the feasts as a teaching tool if they come strictly from Scriptures.
4. What exactly does the family look forward to concerning the feasts?
I think Mark gave some good clues and pointers for self research in his post, but I'll submit for consideration Act 18:21 and 1Cor 5:8 Paul was eager to keep the feast, whichever feast it was he was referring to. Seems like the one was a fall feast, one would think Tabernacles.
The early christians did not see their religion as a new religion, seperate from what we call Judaism, they saw that there was wrong attitudes and motives in the people around them. If you read from a modern point of view, you will see scriptures saying things the writer did not intend to transmit, but if you look at them from the viewpoint of the day, things quickly fall into line.
For instance, when most people read Galatians, they assume Paul is telling the readers to avoid the Jewish feasts and holy days. Read it again. Galatians were not Jewish law keepers at all, but pagans who had converted from their idolatry. They were turning once again to their pagan ways, their pagan 'holy' days, and Paul was extremely concerned for them, that his labor had been in vain.

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

note that before, they neither knew God, nor were known of him. they served the weak and beggarly elements (nature) which are not mighty ones, that's indeed why they were observing days, months, times and years. Many years ago on the Mesopotanian region, the Babylonians and Assyrians kept a lunar sabbath as part of their 'service' to the sun, moon and star 'gods'. It was said that the full moon, the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th days of the lunar cycle were bad luck days, business should be avoided on those days, as it would most likely be cursed. Interestingly enough, Scripture doesn't teach those days, it teaches the real holy days, the 7th day sabbath, and the feasts Yahweh instituted. Sadly, most of those have been perverted as well.

Now, as far as the weekly sabbath in the new testament:
Many folks like to note where the early church got together on the '1st day of the week', so let's look at those.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. (I'm wondering here why the Gentiles wanted to meet the next Sabbath, instead of on Sunday, the very next day if Paul was indeed moving towards a change in the sabbath)
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. (what the heck were Greeks doing in the Jewish synagogues?) indeed, the wall of seperation was torn down!

Act 20:6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.
Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
Act 20:8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.
Act 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
Act 20:10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
Act 20:11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
Act 20:12 And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.
Act 20:13 And we went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so had he appointed, minding himself to go afoot.
Act 20:14 And when he met with us at Assos, we took him in, and came to Mitylene.
Look closely at that text, and then understand an old tradition. After the Sabbath, it was a very common practice to get together and have a cooked meal after the sabbath rest, where they didn't even cook. See, they didn't get together for 'Sunday church' and then have a potluck dinner. It was after dark, when the sabbath had ended. Some of Paul's companions had left before midnight on a boat, sailing around a peninsula while Paul took of later on foot. They waited until Shabbos was over to depart on the boat, while Paul stayed behind and taught. He left at daybreak then walked on foot to meet the boat. He wasn't resting on sunday, he was traveling. He didn't walk at night or go with the boat because he was remaining behind to teach further, yet used enough deduction to know he could walk across a peice of land in time to meet a boat that was sailing around the further route. This would not have been done on a day of rest.

This is all I have time to do at this point, actually, most of this should be done by personal study, laying aside any prejudice that has been taught or learned, and letting the whole word speak to us. After all, the scriptures spoken of in:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Really, what scripture was he referring to there? Was the New Testament written at that point?
And what works? Did he really say works? Was Paul a legalist?

 

[Mark C]

...when most people read Galatians, they assume Paul is telling the readers to avoid the Jewish feasts and holy days...Galatians were not Jewish law keepers at all, but pagans who had converted from their idolatry. They were turning once again to their pagan ways, their pagan 'holy' days, and Paul was extremely concerned for them...

Thanks, ^_^

...that's actually what I meant when I said "most people literally read Galatians BACKWARDS, and miss Paul's point ENTIRELY," but I think your explanation is better.

And what followed reminded me of a VERY solid, albeit lengthy study on the book of Galatians, which I meant to recommend, if people are able to find it.

It is called "Galatians, A Torah-based Commentary in First-Century Hebraic Context" and consists both of a book and/or an 18 volume CD set, by Messianic teacher Avi ben Mordechai.

 

[^_^]

The other thought I have when Paul says salvation is by grace, not by works is:
Deu 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that Yahweh thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness Yahweh hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations Yahweh doth drive them out from before thee.
Deu 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations Yahweh thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which Yahweh sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

For which reason did Yahweh select them, for their greatness or righteousness? I think not.
And again, look at many pagan religions, their way of obtaining 'righteousness' is by offering whatever (sometimes their own children) to their gods to appease them, is that how we obtain salvation? By works such as this? Never, not even a total keeping of 'the law' is enough to save us, nevertheless, since we are saved, do our deeds follow that? Seems to me to be what Paul was saying.

 

[Anonymous]

My own proof text is the simple imperative, "If you love Me, keep My commands." Which? The ones He said were "forever", or "a perpetual statute", or similar words that mean "I change not".)

Circumcision
Gen 17:9-10: “And Elohim said to Abraham, “As for you, guard My covenant, you and your seed after you throughout their generations. This is My covenant which you guard between Me and you, and your seed after you: Every male child among you is to be circumcised.”

Holy feast days
Exodus 12:14: “And this day (Passover) shall become to you a remembrance. And you shall observe it as a festival to Yahweh throughout your generations – observe it as a festival, an everlasting law.”
Leviticus 23:21: “And on this same day (Firstfruits) you shall proclaim a set-apart gathering for yourselves, you do no servile work on it – a law forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.”
Leviticus 23:31: “You do no work (Day of Atonement) – a law forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.”
Leviticus 23:41: “And you shall observe it as a festival to Yahweh for seven days in the year (Tabernacles) – a law forever in your generations. Observe it in the seventh month.”

Animal sacrifices
Exodus 29:42: “a continual burnt offering for your generations at the door of the Tent of Meeting before Yahweh, where I shall meet with you to speak with you.”
Exodus 30:10: “And Aharon shall make atonement upon its horns once a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonement – once a year he makes atonement upon it throughout your generations. It is most set-apart to Yahweh.”

Incense
Exodus 30:8: “And when Aharon lights the lamps between the evenings, he shall burn incense on it – a continual incense before Yahweh throughout your generations.”

Holy anointed oil
Exodus 30:31: “And speak to the children of Yisra’el, saying, ‘This is a set-apart anointing oil to Me throughout your generations.”

Sabbath observance
Exodus 31:13-17: “And you, speak to the children of Yisra’el, saying, “My Sabbaths you are to guard, by all means, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, to know that I, Yahweh, am setting you apart. And you shall guard the Sabbath, for it is set-apart to you. Everyone who profanes it shall certainly be put to death, for anyone who does work on it, that being shall be cut off from among his people. Six days work is done, and on the seventh is a Sabbath of rest, set-apart to Yahweh. Everyone doing work on the Sabbath day shall certainly be put to death. And the children of Yisra’el shall guard the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant.”

Levitical priests in the tabernacle
Exodus 40:15: “and shall anoint them, as you anointed their father, and they shall serve as priests to Me. And their anointing shall be for them an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.”
Numbers 18:23: “because the Lewites shall do the service of the Tent of Meeting, so they themselves bear their crookedness. A law forever, throughout your generations: that among the children of Yisra’el they are to have no inheritance,”

Everlasting. Throughout their generations. Forever. Throughout your generations. Whatever else we might think, one thing is certain. All of these practices were to endure for the same length of time - throughout Israel's generations. If any of them have ceased, then they must have all ceased, since they were all to endure for the same length of time.

David

 

[^_^]

The prophets seem to agree the temple will be rebuilt and exist during the millenial times so I'm looking forwared to that :mrgreen:

 

[Mark C]

If any of them have ceased, then they must have all ceased, since they were all to endure for the same length of time.

Sorry, David, but that is simply flawed logic; nothing specifies that conditional.

Furthermore, since some of them simply CANNOT be accomplished (temple sacrifices, obviously) the statement is clearly false.





And PS> The statement I made that was quoted has a logical problem as well, and is missing a qualifier. I was intending to address specifically God's appointed feasts. When it comes to Yeshua's admonition, "If you love Me, keep my commands," I do NOT interpret Him to mean ONLY those that were "forever" - in whatever form - or specific to particular people. (Even "Israel" - to which most of us no doubt hope to be "grafted in".)

 

[Mark C]

The prophets seem to agree the temple will be rebuilt and exist during the millenial times...

You beat me to it, ^_^; I also seem to recall similar indications that God's Appointed Feasts will be kept then as well.


Which reminds me (although I kinda suspect that me or someone else has already mentioned it in the pages above )
...another of my own "primary motivations" for keeping His feasts is the "practice" element. This factor is admittedly tough to PROVE through exegesis, but it resonates with me nevertheless. Simply put, He has us doing this feasts every year for a REASON. Perhaps it's because He wants us to "be ready, in season and out", and to be able to RECOGNIZE the season.

Since Yeshua perfectly fulfilled EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of His Spring feasts when He came as "Meshiach ben Yosef" (Messiah, the Son of Joseph, or the "Suffering Servant") on His first advent, it does not seem like a great leap of faith to suspect that He might very well fulfill the FALL Feasts when He returns (as "Meshiach ben David").

And if some of the people who had been practicing the "shadows" involved in Pesach were STILL able to miss the import of the very Lamb of God being sacrificed right before their own eyes, "how much more so" those who have never heard a shofar, or never understood the significance of a tabernacle in the wilderness, or the celebration which follows?

 

[DaPastor]

If any of them have ceased, then they must have all ceased, since they were all to endure for the same length of time.

Sorry, David, but that is simply flawed logic; nothing specifies that conditional.

Furthermore, since some of them simply CANNOT be accomplished (temple sacrifices, obviously) the statement is clearly false.

And PS> The statement I made that was quoted has a logical problem as well, and is missing a qualifier. I was intending to address specifically God's appointed feasts. When it comes to Yeshua's admonition, "If you love Me, keep my commands," I do NOT interpret Him to mean ONLY those that were "forever" - in whatever form - or specific to particular people. (Even "Israel" - to which most of us no doubt hope to be "grafted in".)

Hello Mark,

David is just expressing two things from my perspective:

1. There is a timing for each practice on that list to stop based upon the direct references to the people it addresses (i.e., "their"; "your").
2. The timing for each practice on the list to stop is using parallel terms, implying that all practices will stop at the same time.

This is not illogical. It passes the basics for logical syllogisms.

It seems to be that the timing that each text gives is the only condition. This begs the questions: When is the timing for these practices to stop? How do we ascertain the information?

If David's supposition is correct, then this statement,"Furthermore, since some of them simply CANNOT be accomplished (temple sacrifices, obviously) the statement is clearly false", actually lends support to David's thesis to be correct. If it is true that all the Scriptures cited by David are parallel in regards to timing, then the evidence would suggest that all of these practices would stop at the same time.

My two cents!

 

[Joe]

I have really wanted to celebrate those holidays could you send me information on when they are. I have been going crazy not knowing when they are or what to do when celebrating them. Dude if you do this you will be an answer to my prayers.

Here is a link to the Hebrew calendar which I go by for feasts: http://www.ucg.org/resources/calendar.htm
BTW, I don't attend a church affiliated with that website and I don't agree with everything they believe, but as far as the feasts and the Sabbath, I agree with most (maybe all) of their views. That website has a LOT of articles/bible studies that have helped me to rethink a lot of traditional beliefs regarding the Sabbath, holidays, the law, etc.

As far as what to do when celebrating them, we go to a church (in Cincinnati) a couple hours from us for some of the feasts. For the Feast of Tabernacles, we went to one in Florida last year (and plan to this year also) at: http://www.borntowin.net/2008tabernacles.aspx
I think most (possibly all) the people there do not believe in plural marriage, but we were greatly blessed by the fellowship. One family that we shared our views about plural marriage said they don't agree with us, but they accept us as fellow Christians and are fairly good friends now.

 

[Anonymous]

The prophets seem to agree the temple will be rebuilt and exist during the millenial times so I'm looking forwared to that :mrgreen:

Where in Scripture do you find anything about a rebuilt temple?

David

 

[Anonymous]

If any of them have ceased, then they must have all ceased, since they were all to endure for the same length of time.

Sorry, David, but that is simply flawed logic; nothing specifies that conditional.

Why would my statement be flawed? Circumcision was to last "throughout their generations". Animal sacrifices were to last "throughout their generations". Sabbath observance was to last "throughout their generations". Levitical priesthood was to last "throughout their generations". Hence, they were all to last for the exact same length of time -- throughout their generations. How can one "throughout their generations" have ceased while another "throughout their generations" remains? It's basic logic. Either they all remain or they all have ceased. QED. Scripture is clear that they absolutely must all exist "throughout their generations". You can decide for yourself the timing, but not the fact of the matter.

Furthermore, since some of them simply CANNOT be accomplished (temple sacrifices, obviously) the statement is clearly false.

Precisely. As long as your starting assumption is that some of these must exist today and some of these must not exist today, you cannot reconcile these Scriptures. My logic is quite correct. Does Scripture contradict Scripture? You can either say they all remain or they all have passed away but you can't logically say that some HAVE and some HAVEN'T. That WOULD be illogical!

A faulty eschatological view will inevitably lead to a faulty understanding of the Mosaic Law.

David

 

[DaPastor]

I have really wanted to celebrate those holidays could you send me information on when they are. I have been going crazy not knowing when they are or what to do when celebrating them. Dude if you do this you will be an answer to my prayers.

Here is a link to the Hebrew calendar which I go by for feasts: http://www.ucg.org/resources/calendar.htm
BTW, I don't attend a church affiliated with that website and I don't agree with everything they believe, but as far as the feasts and the Sabbath, I agree with most (maybe all) of their views. That website has a LOT of articles/bible studies that have helped me to rethink a lot of traditional beliefs regarding the Sabbath, holidays, the law, etc.

As far as what to do when celebrating them, we go to a church (in Cincinnati) a couple hours from us for some of the feasts. For the Feast of Tabernacles, we went to one in Florida last year (and plan to this year also) at: http://www.borntowin.net/2008tabernacles.aspx
I think most (possibly all) the people there do not believe in plural marriage, but we were greatly blessed by the fellowship. One family that we shared our views about plural marriage said they don't agree with us, but they accept us as fellow Christians and are fairly good friends now.

Hello Joe

Did you know that this group is based out of "Armstrongism"?

 

[Mark C]

If it is true that all the Scriptures cited by David are parallel in regards to timing, then the evidence would suggest that all of these practices would stop at the same time.

While I understand the implication, Pastor Randy, obviously I disagree with the implication. In other words, since the premise is false (parallel timing), then so is the conclusion. Another way to look at it, however, is to note that all of those practices have not, did not stop -- at the same time or otherwise.

I have already taken a shot at the latter, and acknowledge that what I see as the most compelling REASON for keeping the feasts is also evidence by implication. (I.e., since Yeshua perfectly fulfilled the Spring Feasts before, it seems consistent with both His character and the implications of prophecy that He will fulfill the Fall Feasts next time. So, learning about them, keeping them, and being ready might be a good idea, etc.)

All of which is a lot closer to eschatology than exegesis, so I don't get too hung up on it. The arguments that boil down to "I change not", that He is the same "yesterday, today, and tomorrow", and means what He says.

There is no expiration date on the original command to "remember the sabbath" and keep it set apart (Ex. 20) - or on any of the others for that matter.

 

[Mark C]

Why would my statement be flawed? Circumcision was to last "throughout their generations". Animal sacrifices were to last "throughout their generations". Sabbath observance was to last "throughout their generations". Levitical priesthood was to last "throughout their generations". Hence, they were all to last for the exact same length of time -- throughout their generations.

I'm trying to be polite, David, and avoid terminology like "deliberately misleading". The Hebrew word used IN ADDITION in SOME of those cases is "Olam", meaning "forever, perpetual, evermore, always, everlasting..." It is certainly NOT the "exact same length of time" as those, like circumcision in Gen. 17:9, which do not use the same word or structure. Enough said.

And since the descendents of Abraham, and of those who were with Moses, still exist, it would seem that whatever length of time LESS than "forever" that one wants to argue then depends on whether one chooses to be "grafted in" or not.

 

[^_^]

BTW, my participation in discussions like this is to share viewpoints, not to stir animosity. If anything I say is mean or in some way makes a liar out of Scripture, please tell me, I'll shut up

 

[Anonymous]

I'm trying to be polite, David, and avoid terminology like "deliberately misleading". The Hebrew word used IN ADDITION in SOME of those cases is "Olam", meaning "forever, perpetual, evermore, always, everlasting..." It is certainly NOT the "exact same length of time" as those, like circumcision in Gen. 17:9, which do not use the same word or structure. Enough said.

Well, not really. Not to put too fine a point on the matter, but your "olam" example also applies to the Levitical priesthood in the tabernacle, so were you making the claim that those things called "olam" in Scripture DO or DO NOT still apply today? Perhaps a small chart would be helpful when looking at these verses:

Circumcision: H1755 (dore)
Holy feast days: H1755 (dore), H5769 (olam)
Animal sacrifices: H1755 (dore), H8548 (tamed)
Incense: H1755 (dore), H8548 (tamed)
Holy anointed oil: H1755 (dore)
Sabbath observance: H1755 (dore), H5769 (olam)
Levitical priests in the tabernacle: H1755 (dore), H5769 (olam)

"Throughout your generations" (dore) applies to all seven of these examples. "Everlasting" or "Forever" (olam) applies to holy feast days, Sabbath observance and the Levitical priesthood. "Continual" (tamed) applies to animal sacrifice and incense.

Which of these do you believe have passed away, which of these do you believe still remain, and what is the Scriptural basis for this distinction?

Here are the exact passages, with the Hebrew terms used, so you can check my references:

Circumcision
Gen 17:9-10: “And Elohim said to Abraham, “As for you, guard My covenant, you and your seed after you throughout their generations (H1755, dore). This is My covenant which you guard between Me and you, and your seed after you: Every male child among you is to be circumcised.”

Holy feast days
Exodus 12:14: “And this day (Passover) shall become to you a remembrance. And you shall observe it as a festival to Yahweh throughout your generations (H1755, dore) – observe it as a festival, an everlasting (H5769, olam) law.”
Leviticus 23:21: “And on this same day (Firstfruits) you shall proclaim a set-apart gathering for yourselves, you do no servile work on it – a law forever (H5769, olam) in all your dwellings throughout your generations (H1755, dore).”
Leviticus 23:31: “You do no work (Day of Atonement) – a law forever (H5769, olam) throughout your generations (H1755, dore) in all your dwellings.”
Leviticus 23:41: “And you shall observe it as a festival to Yahweh for seven days in the year (Tabernacles) – a law forever (H5769, olam) in your generations (H1755, dore). Observe it in the seventh month.”

Animal sacrifices
Exodus 29:42: “a continual (H8548, tamed) burnt offering for your generations (H1755, dore) at the door of the Tent of Meeting before Yahweh, where I shall meet with you to speak with you.”
Exodus 30:10: “And Aharon shall make atonement upon its horns once a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonement – once a year he makes atonement upon it throughout your generations (H1755, dore). It is most set-apart to Yahweh.”

Incense
Exodus 30:8: “And when Aharon lights the lamps between the evenings, he shall burn incense on it – a continual (H8548, tamed) incense before Yahweh throughout your generations (H1755, dore).”

Holy anointed oil
Exodus 30:31: “And speak to the children of Yisra’el, saying, ‘This is a set-apart anointing oil to Me throughout your generations (H1755, dore).”

Sabbath observance
Exodus 31:13-16: “And you, speak to the children of Yisra’el, saying, “My Sabbaths you are to guard, by all means, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations (H1755, dore), to know that I, Yahweh, am setting you apart. And you shall guard the Sabbath, for it is set-apart to you. Everyone who profanes it shall certainly be put to death, for anyone who does work on it, that being shall be cut off from among his people. Six days work is done, and on the seventh is a Sabbath of rest, set-apart to Yahweh. Everyone doing work on the Sabbath day shall certainly be put to death. And the children of Yisra’el shall guard the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations (H1755, dore) as an everlasting (H5769, olam) covenant.”

Levitical priests in the tabernacle
Exodus 40:15: “and shall anoint them, as you anointed their father, and they shall serve as priests to Me. And their anointing shall be for them an everlasting (H5769, olam) priesthood throughout their generations (H1755, dore).”
Numbers 18:23: “because the Lewites shall do the service of the Tent of Meeting, so they themselves bear their crookedness. A law forever (H5769, olam), throughout your generations (H1755, dore): that among the children of Yisra’el they are to have no inheritance,”

Maybe it's just me, but I can't see any way to break these up into different categories. I have no agenda other than to get at the truth in the Word of God. If we can't agree on logic or on interpretation, certainly we can agree that this is, in fact, what the text actually says. I'm showing clear Scripture that demonstrates what God inspired the original authors to write.

David

P.S. If I'm agitating anyone, just tell me to shut up and I will. Any time we face a major threat to our existing worldview, it requires us to check our motives for wanting to hold onto what we already believe. I'm not trying to rile anyone up but I do tend to have a very "matter of fact" attitude sometimes and it can come across in the wrong way. If I've stepped on any toes, I pray you will forgive me and understand that is not my intent. I love my fellow brothers and sisters and am only interested in studying truth together in Scripture.

 

[Anonymous]

My own proof text is the simple imperative, "If you love Me, keep My commands." Which? The ones He said were "forever", or "a perpetual statute", or similar words that mean "I change not".

In other words, since the premise is false (parallel timing), then so is the conclusion.

You are claiming that the premise (that all of these practices were to endure for the same length of time - throughout Israel's generations) is false. I have to wonder exactly what you understand words like "forever", "everlasting", "continual", "throughout their generations" to mean. Do you believe there is one kind of "forever" that is different in length than another kind of "forever"? Is one instance of "everlasting" MORE everlasting than another instance? Or is it just that you believe some "everlasting" events must have ended while other "everlasting" events must still exist? I'm really having a hard time understanding how you're making sense of these passages.

Another way to look at it, however, is to note that all of those practices have not, did not stop -- at the same time or otherwise.

If you actually believe that ALL these practices (circumcision, holy feast days, animal sacrifices, incense, holy anointed oil, Sabbath observance, Levitical priesthood in the tabernacle) are still in effect, then you would be consistent in your view. We would have to disagree regarding the interpretation, but at least it would be in agreement with the Scriptures that say these were all "throughout Israel's generations". We can't LOGICALLY pick and choose which "forever" has passed away and which remain, however.

In Him,
David

 

[Mark C]

If you actually believe that ALL these practices (circumcision, holy feast days, animal sacrifices, incense, holy anointed oil, Sabbath observance, Levitical priesthood in the tabernacle) are still in effect, then you would be consistent in your view.

I have NEVER said anything other than EXACTLY that, David. And I do not believe He did. Whether it is YHVH of Whom Malachi says "I change not", and Who is the same "yesterday, today, and tomorrow", or Our Savior Who clearly came not to change "one yod or tiddle" until ALL is fulfilled AND "heaven and earth pass" - I think that Scripture is clear, and He is consistent.


In Him,

Mark

 

[Anonymous]

If you actually believe that ALL these practices (circumcision, holy feast days, animal sacrifices, incense, holy anointed oil, Sabbath observance, Levitical priesthood in the tabernacle) are still in effect, then you would be consistent in your view.

I have NEVER said anything other than EXACTLY that, David. And I do not believe He did. Whether it is YHVH of Whom Malachi says "I change not", and Who is the same "yesterday, today, and tomorrow", or Our Savior Who clearly came not to change "one yod or tiddle" until ALL is fulfilled AND "heaven and earth pass" - I think that Scripture is clear, and He is consistent.

Then we are in agreement that Scripture is clear and that He is consistent. My apologies if I misunderstood what you were actually saying. Most Sabbatarians I have talked with in the past have argued against the continuation of the Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifices while arguing for the continuation of dietary laws, Sabbath observance or physical circumcision. You are consistent in your view that they must all still exist. I am consistent in my view that they must have all passed away. We both agree that Messiah clearly stated not one bit of the Mosaic Law would pass until "heaven and earth pass" and "all is fulfilled". We simply disagree on the time statements He gave His disciples as to WHEN this would occur. We both believe in the inspiration of Scripture. I can live with that.

But I am curious regarding the other two quotes you mentioned, specifically "I change not" and "the same yesterday, today and tomorrow". We've both read Rev. 22, so we know that it tells us of an event (certainly future from John's perspective) when "heaven and earth" do in fact pass away and a new "heaven and earth" is established. Therefore, I assume that even if you don't believe that "heaven and earth" have quite yet passed away, they certainly pass away at some point in time. So I'm left wondering how this relates to the references you provided. If "heaven and earth" pass away, and with them some or all of the Mosaic Law, where does that leave us regarding an unchanging God? Must He change His nature to permit these things to pass away? And if not, if an unchanging God can allow "heaven and earth" and the Mosaic Law to pass away without changing His nature, then how would these verses, in themselves, serve to demonstrate anything regarding the timing of WHEN circumcision, animal sacrifices, Sabbath observance, Levitical priesthood, etc. would finally pass away?

Clearly, God was able to create a "heaven and earth" without changing, so it stands to reason He should also be able to cause them to pass away without changing. We should be able to agree that the Mosaic Law has a definite beginning and ending, whether we agree on the timing or not. So those quotes don't seem to have any bearing on the fact of which we both agree; namely, that God does not change. We know Rev. 22:5 says there shall be no more night in the new "heaven and earth", so Sabbath observance certainly must cease by that point in time. Since the same time statements are used of Sabbath observance and the Levitical priesthood (forever, throughout your generations), can we agree that once Sabbath observance ceases with the new "heaven and earth", then the Levitical priesthood will have to cease at the same time? I'm just trying to make sure I know what we are in agreement on, because there is a lot of confusion regarding these matters. Peace.

In His love,
David