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How do Hebrew roots folks determine what birds are kosher?

IshChayil

IshChayil

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A few months ago I came across a youtuber Zec Baeuer (sp?)
I like his manerisms and many of his arguments, I really like how he encourages Hebrew roots folks not to desparage your brother Judah for keeping Hanukkah. Anyway, he had a video where he was discussing how he thought turkey is kosher and his father-in-law doesn't so now they don't eat it.

I was kind of suprised by this as I am not aware of any Jews who consider turkey as treif (not kosher).
This got me to thinking, "how do Hebrew roots folks determine which birds are kosher?"
Birds are not listed with clearly identifiable rules in the Torah as other animals are so that we may identify immediately if a bird is kosher or not (fish for example easy: scales + fins = kosher).

Regarding birds, the written torah specifically lists several species of forbidden birds and leaves it at that. The assumption has been that any bird not on the "bad" list is good to go.
The problem is that some of the Hebrew words for those birds have been lost to antiquity.

So for Jews / Messianics, the way we identify which birds are allowed is simply if there is a Jewish tradition that those birds are allowed. If we came across a new bird, we wouldn't eat it since we don't know if it looks like one of the "lost" forbidden birds. For turkey, there are many traditions of eating this bird so ... it's allowed.

So, for folks who don't like tradition stuff, I'm curious how do you guys determine if Turkey is OK or not? What about other birds? We do have some birds of prey stuff to follow but outside of that is what I'm curious about.
Looking forward to learning in this area.
Thanks!
 
The Turkey is a New World bird so it is highly unlikely to have made it in a list in the OT.

Also watch out, translation of animals names varies heavily where the translator's were uncertain of what exactly the thing was.
 
My understanding is that birds of prey and birds that eat carrion (sp?) /dead meat are unclean. Turkey, like chicken is a dirty bird, but not unclean.... we eat both.
 
We also have indication of a few birds which would obviously be considered clean such as the dove and pigeon, as they are listed as animals to be used in sacrifice. So, a number of people extrapolate similarities between those and birds like chickens and turkeys.

There are a number of opinions on duck.

For birds, I generally follow rabbinic tradition, but I do have chicken and cheese sandwiches.
 
We pretty much go with what it eats. Insects and fruit/vege/grains etc are all good. If it's eating meat or dead animals then that would be a no.
As an aside, why does the bible say we can't eat ostrich? That one doesn't make much sense to me.
 
FollowingHim2 said:
As an aside, why does the bible say we can't eat ostrich?
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Their diet consists mainly of roots, leaves, and seeds, but ostriches will eat whatever is available. Sometimes they consume insects, snakes, lizards, and rodents. They also swallow sand and pebbles which help them grind up their food in their gizzard, a specialized, muscular stomach. They eat carrion As Well.
 
FollowingHim2 said:
We pretty much go with what it eats. Insects and fruit/vege/grains etc are all good. If it's eating meat or dead animals then that would be a no.
As an aside, why does the bible say we can't eat ostrich? That one doesn't make much sense to me.
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ostrich is one of the contested ancient words; ironically I can't remember the word and I'm rushing for shabbat prep now....
I do remember when I was trying to nail down this word the LXX was clearer at declaring it an ostrich. Good approach avoiding scavengers and predators :)
 
Kevin said:
Their diet consists mainly of roots, leaves, and seeds, but ostriches will eat whatever is available. Sometimes they consume insects, snakes, lizards, and rodents. They also swallow sand and pebbles which help them grind up their food in their gizzard, a specialized, muscular stomach. They eat carrion As Well.
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Yeah I had read some opinion about having a gizzard (like the chicken) and therefore turkeys were OK. Good point @rockfox about turkeys being a new world bird. I had read somewhere some similarities to another Old word bird but it's completely gone from my mind since like @jacobhaivri and @Kevin I tend to rely on tradition in this area (and we don't discover too many new birds on a regular basis)
 
Leviticus 11:13-20 (KJV)
13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
15 Every raven after his kind;
16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you

Leviticus 11:13-20 (TLV)
13 “Among the birds you should detest the following—they are not to be eaten—they are loathsome: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, 15 any kind of raven, 16 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, 18 the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, 19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe, and the bat.
20 “All flying insects that walk on all fours are detestable to you.

Leviticus 11:13-20 Tanahk

And among birds, you shall hold these in abomination; they shall not be eaten; they are an abomination: The eagle [or the griffin vulture], the kite, the osprey, יגוְאֶת־אֵ֨לֶּה֙ תְּשַׁקְּצ֣וּ מִן־הָע֔וֹף לֹ֥א יֵאָֽכְל֖וּ שֶׁ֣קֶץ הֵ֑ם אֶת־הַנֶּ֨שֶׁר֙ וְאֶת־הַפֶּ֔רֶס וְאֵ֖ת הָֽעָזְנִיָּֽה:
14the kestrel, and the vulture after its species, ידוְאֶת־הַ֨דָּאָ֔ה וְאֶת־הָֽאַיָּ֖ה לְמִינָֽהּ:
15and the raven after its species, טואֵ֥ת כָּל־עֹרֵ֖ב לְמִינֽוֹ:
16the ostrich, the jay, and the sparrow hawk, and the goshawk after its species; טזוְאֵת֙ בַּ֣ת הַיַּֽעֲנָ֔ה וְאֶת־הַתַּחְמָ֖ס וְאֶת־הַשָּׁ֑חַף וְאֶת־הַנֵּ֖ץ לְמִינֵֽהוּ:
17The owl, the gull, the little owl; יזוְאֶת־הַכּ֥וֹס וְאֶת־הַשָּׁלָ֖ךְ וְאֶת־הַיַּנְשֽׁוּף:
18The bat, the starling, the magpie; יחוְאֶת־הַתִּנְשֶׁ֥מֶת וְאֶת־הַקָּאָ֖ת וְאֶת־הָֽרָחָֽם:
19the stork, the heron after its species; the hoopoe and the atalef [bat?]; יטוְאֵת֙ הַֽחֲסִידָ֔ה הָֽאֲנָפָ֖ה לְמִינָ֑הּ וְאֶת־הַדּֽוּכִיפַ֖ת וְאֶת־הָֽעֲטַלֵּֽף:
20Any flying insect that walks on four, is an abomination for you.

Deuteronomy 14:12-19 KJV
12 But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
13 And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind,
14 And every raven after his kind,
15 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
16 The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan,
17 And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant,
18 And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
19 And every creeping thing that flieth is unclean unto you: they shall not be eaten.

Deuteronomy 14:12-19 (TLV)
12 but these are the ones you are not to eat: the eagle, the vulture, the buzzard, 13 the red kite, the black kite, and any bird of prey of that kind, 14 every raven of any kind, 15 the ostrich, the owl, the seagull, a hawk of any kind, 16 the little owl, the great owl, the white owl, 17 the pelican, the Egyptian vulture, the cormorant, 18 the stork, a heron of any kind, the hoopoe, and the bat. 19 All winged insects are unclean to you—they are not to be eaten.

Deuteronomy 14:12-19 Tanahk

12But these are those from which you shall not eat: The eagle [or the griffin vulture], the ossifrage, the osprey; יבוְזֶ֕ה אֲשֶׁ֥ר לֹא־תֹֽאכְל֖וּ מֵהֶ֑ם הַנֶּ֥שֶׁר וְהַפֶּ֖רֶס וְהָֽעָזְנִיָּֽה:
13and the white vulture, and the black vulture, and the kite after its species; יגוְהָֽרָאָה֙ וְאֶת־הָ֣אַיָּ֔ה וְהַדַּיָּ֖ה לְמִינָֽהּ:
14And every raven after its species; ידוְאֵ֥ת כָּל־עֹרֵ֖ב לְמִינֽוֹ:
15And the ostrich, and the owl, and the gull, and the hawk after its species; טווְאֵת֙ בַּ֣ת הַיַּֽעֲנָ֔ה וְאֶת־הַתַּחְמָ֖ס וְאֶת־הַשָּׁ֑חַף וְאֶת־הַנֵּ֖ץ לְמִינֵֽהוּ:
16The falcon, and the ibis, and the bat; טזאֶת־הַכּ֥וֹס וְאֶת־הַיַּנְשׁ֖וּף וְהַתִּנְשָֽׁמֶת:
17And the pelican, and the magpie, and the cormorant; יזוְהַקָּאָ֥ת וְאֶת־הָֽרָחָ֖מָה וְאֶת־הַשָּׁלָֽךְ:
18And the stork, and the heron and its species, and the hoopoe, and the atalef. יחוְהַ֣חֲסִידָ֔ה וְהָֽאֲנָפָ֖ה לְמִינָ֑הּ וְהַדּֽוּכִיפַ֖ת וְהָֽעֲטַלֵּֽף:
19And every flying insect is unclean for you; they may not be eaten.

 
rockfox said:
Ya'll apparently don't realize that chickens are happy cannibals with little gumption about eating carrion or each other, alive even. And they'll hunt mice too
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That's something my wife and I have been talking about lately. I use to raise them and their "Fowl" creatures and I do not understand why they were not deemed unclean.

Edit:I'm not actually questioning their biblical cleanliness but making a statement about their worldly cleanliness.
 
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ZecAustin said:
So I'm being lazy but I'm pretty sure I saw the King James list swans as an unclean bird and that gives me pause about ducks and geese. Anyone have any insight here?
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I'm being lazy too, by doing research on my computer while Samuel dresses the kids ha ha!
OK, so swans eat everything you'd think they eat, like grasses, grains, insects etc, but they also eat fish and shrimp. And looking at the above lists it seems to make the distinction of birds that eat sea food (or perhaps only those that would eat shellfish or crustaceans?). Ducks eat fish as well as crayfish, molluscs, frogs, fish eggs etc. Geese pretty much are herbivores, though they will occasionally eat small insects or fish.


Kevin said:
That's something my wife and I have been talking about lately. I use to raise them and their "Fowl" creatures and I do not understand why they were not deemed unclean.
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Chickens do eat anything, but those raised in barns and killed for supermarkets certainly never get the chance to. The earliest written reference according to wikipedia is about 1400BC showing that they came to Egypt from around Syria and Shinar, so they've been around since then and the Israelites would have known about them. Was that about when the law was written? If they were unclean then they should have been in the list, surely. But when you think about what they will eat given the chance, they don't seem to be very clean.
 
FollowingHim2 said:
If they were unclean then they should have been in the list, surely. But when you think about what they will eat given the chance, they don't seem to be very clean.
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Sure but if you want to go down that road, I could tell you about the meat eating habits of cows. No I'm not kidding. This is a rabbit hole without end.

The diet of pigs vs. chickens is barely any different; yet one is prohibited and one not. I know people use the animal's diet as some of the big reasons for kosher, but I just don't see it. Does scripture give any reason beyond just a list?
 
Kevin said:
Here's a Biblical Kosher list I found.

http://baruchhashemsynagogue.org/?p=2222
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That list claims all fat is prohibited. However one of its citations is not so all encompassing (Leviticus 7:23-25):

Say to the Israelites: ‘Do not eat any of the fat of cattle, sheep or goats.
The fat of an animal found dead or torn by wild animals may be used for any other purpose, but you must not eat it.
Anyone who eats the fat of an animal from which a food offering may be presented to the LORD must be cut off from their people.
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​
If I remember correctly certain traditional Jewish dishes are cooked with chicken fat; i.e. fat off a clean animal which also isn't not on that prohibition list. I see kosher chicken fat is sold online.
 
rockfox said:
Sure but if you want to go down that road, I could tell you about the meat eating habits of cows. No I'm not kidding. This is a rabbit hole without end.

The diet of pigs vs. chickens is barely any different; yet one is prohibited and one not. I know people use the animal's diet as some of the big reasons for kosher, but I just don't see it. Does scripture give any reason beyond just a list?
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Cows eat their own placenta too, as do sheep.
I agree that we can't just go by what they eat, but there's very little go off. We're trying to figure out a law that was given thousands of years ago and apply it to the foods we have now, and the society we have now, and so much has changed.
I think we could go down rabbit holes and eventually come to the conclusion that no meat is safe to eat and we should all be vegetarians, and I don't think that's what following the law should be about. It's not about strict rules, it's actually about grace. I'm going off topic here, but people don't get that, they think that it's oppressive. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see it that way.
 
rockfox said:
That list claims all fat is prohibited. However one of its citations is not so all encompassing (Leviticus 7:23-25):


If I remember correctly certain traditional Jewish dishes are cooked with chicken fat; i.e. fat off a clean animal which also isn't not on that prohibition list. I see kosher chicken fat is sold online.
Click to expand...

That's the point I was hoping someone would make. There are some new teachings what things are biblicaly kosher that don't make sense. It's part of why I choose to follow Traditional teachings about Kosher for my family.
 
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