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Taken in Hand/Domestic Discipline
- Thread starter Cool Wifey Jones
- Start date
If I'm permitted a slight tangent, as far as judicial corporate punishment, some folks might find it interesting to know that Singapore, which practices corporal punishment (among other strict means of judicial enforcement in general) has an extremely low crime rate. At least according to this:
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I don't even see it as a tangent. The question is not why should women submit to corporal punishment; the question is why don't we still use corporal punishment across the board? That's a question worth thinking about.
That's a context piece. Obviously the narrow question here is "how's that working out for y'all?"....
That's a context piece. Obviously the narrow question here is "how's that working out for y'all?"....
Multiple times the convesation has brushed up against the larger issue of punishment for societal crimes... Many people, even Christians, speak poorly of the laws ancient Israel had and call God 'vengeful,' but it is interesting to note that while they were obedient to operate within the Torah, they were blessed. When they got lazy about it, presumably not training their children, they received the curses.
We see such harsh penalties of stoning, restitution plus 20%, servanthood, etc. as 'archaic,' but the Singapore video proves God is wiser than we are and just in having such a strong and intentional code. No 30 year hots/cots prison sentences.
We see such harsh penalties of stoning, restitution plus 20%, servanthood, etc. as 'archaic,' but the Singapore video proves God is wiser than we are and just in having such a strong and intentional code. No 30 year hots/cots prison sentences.
Well said @PeteR! We are very for a return to YHWH's righteous law, and believe it will be established.
We watched the video above with some of our youngins and then told them that the scripture has a better law.
I know from experience that muscle memory can totally change behavior even on a sub conscious level.
When I was a teen a latch on a goat feeder broke letting the baby goats get out and play on the hay stack. Since goats treat every place like a bathroom we did not want them fouling up the alfalfa so we held the door shut with a metal tee post braced against it.
Well, the next night when I was out feeding after dark I walked right into that shin high obstical. It was very painful and left a welted bruise.
Now anyone that does chores day in and day out knows that once you know the routine you can do them on auto pilot. The body does the chores while the mind goes elsewhere. Next night out feeding in the dark again ....with my mind off somewhere more fun ...I forgot about that T post again. While my conscious mind was contemplating something worthy I'm sure, my body was walking right back into pain....but the crazy thing is my body stopped my feet. I was mentally trying to figure out why my feet stopped when I looked down and saw that the blasted post was inches from my shins.
The experience impressed upon my why corporal punishment works. Because a child's backside is as connected to his brain as my shins were to my brain. The backside can help the mind remember what the conscious mind does not.
When too young to reason pain can still change behavior, and when one is stubborn you can get through a thick skull by using the back way into the brain.
It's a beautiful thing!
We watched the video above with some of our youngins and then told them that the scripture has a better law.
I know from experience that muscle memory can totally change behavior even on a sub conscious level.
When I was a teen a latch on a goat feeder broke letting the baby goats get out and play on the hay stack. Since goats treat every place like a bathroom we did not want them fouling up the alfalfa so we held the door shut with a metal tee post braced against it.
Well, the next night when I was out feeding after dark I walked right into that shin high obstical. It was very painful and left a welted bruise.
Now anyone that does chores day in and day out knows that once you know the routine you can do them on auto pilot. The body does the chores while the mind goes elsewhere. Next night out feeding in the dark again ....with my mind off somewhere more fun ...I forgot about that T post again. While my conscious mind was contemplating something worthy I'm sure, my body was walking right back into pain....but the crazy thing is my body stopped my feet. I was mentally trying to figure out why my feet stopped when I looked down and saw that the blasted post was inches from my shins.
The experience impressed upon my why corporal punishment works. Because a child's backside is as connected to his brain as my shins were to my brain. The backside can help the mind remember what the conscious mind does not.
When too young to reason pain can still change behavior, and when one is stubborn you can get through a thick skull by using the back way into the brain.
It's a beautiful thing!
The second definition in the urban dictionary for “bum” is:
2. British/ Australian equivalent of "butt".
An appropriate acronym is:
bum = brain upload mechanism
Thank everyone for the advice.
To be honest we have a extremely happy marriage. I am submissive to him in areas I should be and the fact that we have never ever had cause to have a row shows this. This isn’t to say we always agree, on the contrary, but I submit to him knowing God has given him the headship in our marriage and home. Through submitting to him I therefore submit to Gods will.
My issue is that as I know I am his weakness I sometimes push the boundaries (I guess like a child) and he allows me to get away with this. It’s a sign of my weakness that I keep doing things I know I shouldn’t. Overspending for example
I feel like DD would help me not to do this.
I do try not to do things I know I shouldn’t but sometimes I like my own way (we all do) or I will do something he won’t approve of and I think dd would help me not too.
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To be honest we have a extremely happy marriage. I am submissive to him in areas I should be and the fact that we have never ever had cause to have a row shows this. This isn’t to say we always agree, on the contrary, but I submit to him knowing God has given him the headship in our marriage and home. Through submitting to him I therefore submit to Gods will.
My issue is that as I know I am his weakness I sometimes push the boundaries (I guess like a child) and he allows me to get away with this. It’s a sign of my weakness that I keep doing things I know I shouldn’t. Overspending for example
I feel like DD would help me not to do this.
I do try not to do things I know I shouldn’t but sometimes I like my own way (we all do) or I will do something he won’t approve of and I think dd would help me not too.
.
Your marriage sounds very healthy, and I think you guys are going to do just fine whether you decide to go with DD or not. Cheers!
This thread really impresses me, and it makes me even more happy that I have found Biblical Families. Few subjects other than polygyny have people saying “of course that’s evil” as much as this. “Wife-beater” is ordinarily synonymous with “barbarian” and “caveman” in western culture. That it can actually be discussed here is a huge step.
This reminds me of something said to me on my introduction thread:
“If often found that after you drop the poly bomb, surivers are more open to other biblical truths and are willing to strip away the other traditions of man being taught as doctrine in denominational churches, and even in nondenominational ones. Its like an underground railroad, helping people escape slavery to mans dogma and finding freedom in Gods word.” - Kevin
I have actually thought of the question of this thread before. One thing I wondered is why it seemed more condemned than corporal punishment for children, and I wondered this because women are different from children. Of course there is the question of if someone is so against corporal punishment, why would they accept it for children. But children are far more vulnerable in body and mind than an adult, far more the possible victims of domestic abuse and violence, obviously: thus it is far more unreasonable to be seemingly more concerned for the adult than the child.
My guess as to why “wife-beating” is even more condemned than “child-beating” is the “enlightened” culture’s goddess worship. They like to pretend to care about children because it’s an easy way to make their enemies look bad. But what they really care about is the "divine cause" of feminism. To strike a woman, much more to assert authority by it, is to blaspheme their god!
This no doubt leads to another reason: once it is all considered vile and evil, those who practice discipline that is nothing to be ashamed of are weeded out, till all that are left are those who abuse secretly and because of an evil, uncontrolled sadism: further strengthening the prejudiced view that anyone who strikes a woman is such a person.
The main logical argument that could be made against using corporal punishment on an adult would be that it is useless, but of course that would be a practical question that would need to be verified one way or the other in discussing actual experience (as the OP of this thread has done!). And if it is useful for anybody, then it is useful: it isn’t like a medicine which has a certain statistical rate of success or harm: if both parties have enough trust to give consent there is nothing lost if it turns out unhelpful.
Though of course this question would only apply to the domestic version: no one can question that Scripture prescribes it for crime:
“And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.” - Deuteronomy 25:2
But Scripture also prescribes it for not necessarily criminal causes:
“A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.“ - Proverbs 26:3
This reminds me of something said to me on my introduction thread:
“If often found that after you drop the poly bomb, surivers are more open to other biblical truths and are willing to strip away the other traditions of man being taught as doctrine in denominational churches, and even in nondenominational ones. Its like an underground railroad, helping people escape slavery to mans dogma and finding freedom in Gods word.” - Kevin
I have actually thought of the question of this thread before. One thing I wondered is why it seemed more condemned than corporal punishment for children, and I wondered this because women are different from children. Of course there is the question of if someone is so against corporal punishment, why would they accept it for children. But children are far more vulnerable in body and mind than an adult, far more the possible victims of domestic abuse and violence, obviously: thus it is far more unreasonable to be seemingly more concerned for the adult than the child.
My guess as to why “wife-beating” is even more condemned than “child-beating” is the “enlightened” culture’s goddess worship. They like to pretend to care about children because it’s an easy way to make their enemies look bad. But what they really care about is the "divine cause" of feminism. To strike a woman, much more to assert authority by it, is to blaspheme their god!
This no doubt leads to another reason: once it is all considered vile and evil, those who practice discipline that is nothing to be ashamed of are weeded out, till all that are left are those who abuse secretly and because of an evil, uncontrolled sadism: further strengthening the prejudiced view that anyone who strikes a woman is such a person.
The main logical argument that could be made against using corporal punishment on an adult would be that it is useless, but of course that would be a practical question that would need to be verified one way or the other in discussing actual experience (as the OP of this thread has done!). And if it is useful for anybody, then it is useful: it isn’t like a medicine which has a certain statistical rate of success or harm: if both parties have enough trust to give consent there is nothing lost if it turns out unhelpful.
Though of course this question would only apply to the domestic version: no one can question that Scripture prescribes it for crime:
“And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.” - Deuteronomy 25:2
But Scripture also prescribes it for not necessarily criminal causes:
“A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.“ - Proverbs 26:3
Slam dunk--swish--3 pointer on that comment @Slumberfreeze!! I've been away for the weekend and have heard through the grapevine that this thread was up and dealing with corporal punishment meted out to the wife(s) by a husband willing to call himself a Patriarch--of all things!
@Hale, your man is a very wise man and truly does love you if he's sensing that somehow this idea of corporal punishment just isn't right. His gut is telling him there's got to be a better way to lead and rule-----and there IS!!!
I thoroughly agree with this also. There is no need to use physical discipline in order to achieve a healthy marriage. On the contrary, there are obvious risks that using physical discipline could destroy a healthy marriage. Although I would never condemn those who choose to do it, and find it interesting that some find it useful, I am not advocating it in any way.
If you're going to submit to your husband, submit to his decision that this isn't for you. Ask him what his solution for your few problems is.
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It's truly amazing to me @rockfox how you're always the expert on the women's do's and don't's but can't seem to pull it together to put the shoe on the other foot! IF @Slumberfreeze's Biblical solution and @Joleneakamama's Biblical assessment is an overly simplistic and ideal view of life and female psychology, then WHAT do you call your "rule with fear and coercion method"?!? Trying to write your own bible?!? Cuz it ain't in my Bible!!!! Guess THAT would be humanism to the core--uhumm--idolatry
@rockfox and @rejoicinghandmaid: Just stop there please, I can see the potential for a massive argument here. Have it in private if you must have it, but we don't all need to be spectators.
Something to point out if anyone is thinking of instances in the Bible as an argument: there are no instances of corporal punishment for a wife; there are also no instances of corporal punishment for children, and even more the only instances of judicial corporal punishment (except Gideon scourging the men of Succoth with briars) are all instances of injustice. Using proof by lack of evidence to the contrary as one’s argument one could say corporal punishment is wrong, and say one does not find it in the Bible.
But then in one or two places God says it should be done judicially. Then in a few other places God says if you don’t do it for your children you are sinning. Then in another place God says that if he does not scourge you, then you are not his child!
(I actually read a book that said “God does not punish his children”: this is how far removed western thinking is from reality.)
The statement that a wife should submit without needing to be punished is true, and children should also submit without needing to be punished, and we should submit to God without needing to be punished. But this is the wrong side of the question, which is: if one does not submit, should they then submit to punishment, and should their authority punish them?
To question this is not to question whether corporal punishment should be used with a wife, but to question punishment itself. The same arguments apply to all relationships of authority and submission, and are the same arguments by which atheists mock God’s Law and judgment and Hell. Not in spirit either, they say the very words: “A relationship should be based on love, not on fear of punishment”.
If a relationship is hurt by punishment, then it would not be a relationship picturing God’s relationship with us. If it is found to be of little practical use in a certain case, we should at least not condemn those who do find it useful: biblically they have the moral high ground in this issue. It would be better to seek advice, to study the many ways it can be applied and has been applied with good result, and try to find what is best.
To argue against its applicability in any case or manner one must argue that the authority and submission relationship between a husband and wife is fundamentally unique from every authority and submission relationship described by God. As far as it is described in Scripture, I would say that its likeness rather than uniqueness is far more emphasized than any other relationship. Wives are told to submit to their husbands as they do to God. She is to call her husband “lord” as Sarah did. And the authority relationships lists given in Collosians 3:18-4:1 and Ephesians 5:22-6:9 begin with wives obeying their husbands, and husbands loving their wives, and next is children obey your parents, and fathers provoke not your children (reiterating the husband’s authority over his wife, as this makes the father the final authority over the children), and the lists conclude with servants and masters.
As regards differences between a wife and a child (such as not having sex with your children): the point of comparing a wife and a child is that both are placed biblically under the authority of the man. Every other aspect of the relationship may be opposite, but according to the Bible this aspect of authority is the same. If anything, the wife is more under authority than the children, as children leave their parents authority when they come of age, and at least when they marry. And (perhaps for this reason) the child’s submission is not compared to our submission to God, as the submission of the wife is.
But then in one or two places God says it should be done judicially. Then in a few other places God says if you don’t do it for your children you are sinning. Then in another place God says that if he does not scourge you, then you are not his child!
(I actually read a book that said “God does not punish his children”: this is how far removed western thinking is from reality.)
The statement that a wife should submit without needing to be punished is true, and children should also submit without needing to be punished, and we should submit to God without needing to be punished. But this is the wrong side of the question, which is: if one does not submit, should they then submit to punishment, and should their authority punish them?
To question this is not to question whether corporal punishment should be used with a wife, but to question punishment itself. The same arguments apply to all relationships of authority and submission, and are the same arguments by which atheists mock God’s Law and judgment and Hell. Not in spirit either, they say the very words: “A relationship should be based on love, not on fear of punishment”.
If a relationship is hurt by punishment, then it would not be a relationship picturing God’s relationship with us. If it is found to be of little practical use in a certain case, we should at least not condemn those who do find it useful: biblically they have the moral high ground in this issue. It would be better to seek advice, to study the many ways it can be applied and has been applied with good result, and try to find what is best.
To argue against its applicability in any case or manner one must argue that the authority and submission relationship between a husband and wife is fundamentally unique from every authority and submission relationship described by God. As far as it is described in Scripture, I would say that its likeness rather than uniqueness is far more emphasized than any other relationship. Wives are told to submit to their husbands as they do to God. She is to call her husband “lord” as Sarah did. And the authority relationships lists given in Collosians 3:18-4:1 and Ephesians 5:22-6:9 begin with wives obeying their husbands, and husbands loving their wives, and next is children obey your parents, and fathers provoke not your children (reiterating the husband’s authority over his wife, as this makes the father the final authority over the children), and the lists conclude with servants and masters.
As regards differences between a wife and a child (such as not having sex with your children): the point of comparing a wife and a child is that both are placed biblically under the authority of the man. Every other aspect of the relationship may be opposite, but according to the Bible this aspect of authority is the same. If anything, the wife is more under authority than the children, as children leave their parents authority when they come of age, and at least when they marry. And (perhaps for this reason) the child’s submission is not compared to our submission to God, as the submission of the wife is.
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When I was in law school, one of my school friends was a Reform or Orthodox Jew (sorry, the memory, it fades; what I remember is that there was an adjective). He and his buddies would get together to study Torah together every Thursday night, a factoid I learned about when my friend shared with me one of the topics of the previous week's meeting. It seems the question had come up whether the husband had any authority in his house if he couldn't punish his wife.
"Corporal punishment" is an ambiguous phrase, because it covers everything from a slap on the wrist to crucifixion. In the context of this thread, though, I assume we're all talking about a relatively formal kind of spanking across the buttocks, and not anything more brutal, which would be abusive, but not anything playful or insincere or flirty either, which would be ineffective for disciplinary purposes .
There are other forms of body punishment, though, besides spankings or floggings. "Drop and give me 50" is a form of corporal punishment, as are laps around the track or working on a chain gang. So is any kind of confinement, from prison to being grounded to your room. There's also task-based punishment (aka slave labor), from peeling potatoes or latrine duty to having to do extra chores around the house. And then there are financial penalties, from serious damages in court to speeding ticket fines to having a swear jar at the house or in a dorm room.
So the bigger question here is whether we can picture a husband punishing his wife at all, and what the bible says about that, or if that's not made explicit then what can reasonably be inferred from what the bible does say. I'm not talking about "loss of privileges" or even "consequences" (as that word tends to get used these days); I'm talking about punishment—the infliction of a penalty of some sort for inappropriate behavior.
Does a husband have real authority (as a parent, school official, employer, or government official has, including the authority to punish), or just influence? What scriptures support your conclusion?
"Corporal punishment" is an ambiguous phrase, because it covers everything from a slap on the wrist to crucifixion. In the context of this thread, though, I assume we're all talking about a relatively formal kind of spanking across the buttocks, and not anything more brutal, which would be abusive, but not anything playful or insincere or flirty either, which would be ineffective for disciplinary purposes .
There are other forms of body punishment, though, besides spankings or floggings. "Drop and give me 50" is a form of corporal punishment, as are laps around the track or working on a chain gang. So is any kind of confinement, from prison to being grounded to your room. There's also task-based punishment (aka slave labor), from peeling potatoes or latrine duty to having to do extra chores around the house. And then there are financial penalties, from serious damages in court to speeding ticket fines to having a swear jar at the house or in a dorm room.
So the bigger question here is whether we can picture a husband punishing his wife at all, and what the bible says about that, or if that's not made explicit then what can reasonably be inferred from what the bible does say. I'm not talking about "loss of privileges" or even "consequences" (as that word tends to get used these days); I'm talking about punishment—the infliction of a penalty of some sort for inappropriate behavior.
Does a husband have real authority (as a parent, school official, employer, or government official has, including the authority to punish), or just influence? What scriptures support your conclusion?
Leviticus 19:20
[20] And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
Clearly some specific circumstances here which hopefully doesn’t apply to any of us but this is the only example that I’m aware of...
Glad you mentioned crucifixion here. 'Cause that's exactly what the Husband told his Bride to do.