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1 corinthians 9:19-23

steve said:
I don’t see how anyone can explain their way past this verse.
He never commanded the things that are attributed to Paul.
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And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. — 2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV
 
JudahYAHites said:
…..teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you, as modified by what Paul will teach: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. [Mat 28:18-20 KJV]




iniquity = lawlessness, so, what does iniquity mean?

scriptural answers because scripture interprets scripture.
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Fixed it for them.
 
JudahYAHites said:
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. [Mat 28:18-20 KJV
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Oh come on man! How do you do all this cool stuff with the text? I can’t even figure out how to underline or make something bold and you’re over here with multiple font sizes and colors! It’s not fair I tell you!

Now about what he commanded them to teach. After His resurrection, before He ascended, Jesus had just spent forty days under the new covenant teaching the Disciples. It is these teachings that He was referring to. These were the teachings of the new covenant. And it is these things that the Disciples then preached in Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. Before the crucifixion Jesus said in Matthew 10:5-6 KJV
[5] “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: [6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
After the resurrection He now sends them to Samaria and the whole world. Old covenant, law of Moses, Israel. New covenant, better promises, whole world.


JudahYAHites said:
iniquity = lawlessness, so, what does iniquity mean?

scriptural answers because scripture interprets scripture.
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Transgression of the law. What is law? Is eating an animal that died of natural causes iniquity?
 
steve said:
I don’t see how anyone can explain their way past this verse.
He never commanded the things that are attributed to Paul.
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To put Christ and Paul at odds is to misunderstand the Scriptures. Jesus told his disciples that those who hear them hear Him. In fact the only way we know anything that Jesus said is because after the fact His disciples wrote about it. The Gospels are not Jesus’ writings that are to be weighed against the rest of the New Testament, it is all one cohesive unit. The change from old covenant to new covenant is not between Malachi and Matthew, it comes at the end of the Gospels.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
Now about what he commanded them to teach. After His resurrection, before He ascended, Jesus had just spent forty days under the new covenant teaching the Disciples. It is these teachings that He was referring to.
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What exactly are those teachings?
 
Children of God said:
I may read this different than you do. I read everything you sent as we are saved by faith. If that's what you're making as your point I concur. The scripture is clear whether in the old or new Testament. We gain nothing by our own works. However through faith in God we respond with doing his will. You could consider that works but not that they earn you righteousness. For even as Abraham who did works he was righteous due to his faith in God. If you do works to save yourself you are dead. If you do works to be obedient you have the faith in the one that gives you righteousness and has commanded you to follow his will.
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Yes for sure salvation is by grace through faith, not works. I understand what you mean though, that once we are saved by grace through faith shouldn’t we then be obedient to what Christ has commanded us to do. The question then becomes, did Christ command YOU to, for instance, go to the priests? If you are a gentile like me, the Sinai covenant wasn’t made with you. During Jesus earthly ministry He said He came for the house of Israel. He instructed those in the house of Israel to obey the law of Moses. Do you see what I mean? Yes once we are saved by grace through faith we ought to obey God out of love. What commands were given to us?

“And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.” 1 John 3:23 | ESV

Directives on how we show love for one another are given in the back half of many of the epistles. For example:

“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” Ephesians 4:1-3 | ESV

“For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.” Romans 14:17-18 | ESV

“Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.” Galatians 6:2 | ESV
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
The same ones given to Paul. They are expounded through the rest of the New Testament. We hear Him when we listen to His Witnesses.
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You would have us believe that four disciples wrote their perspectives on the history of the beginning of the New Covenant and didn’t bother with explaining the major changes that were the result?
Act’s explains what occurred in the ministry after the resurrection and the only thing that can possibly be construed as a change was Peter being told to eat unclean animals. The problem with that is that he refused, more than once. And then later stated that it was about showing that the Gentiles were not unclean.

So it’s pretty weird that such a major theological change isn’t mentioned.
 
steve said:
You would have us believe that four disciples wrote their perspectives on the history of the beginning of the New Covenant and didn’t bother with explaining the major changes that were the result?
Act’s explains what occurred in the ministry after the resurrection and the only thing that can possibly be construed as a change was Peter being told to eat unclean animals. The problem with that is that he refused, more than once. And then later stated that it was about showing that the Gentiles were not unclean.

So it’s pretty weird that such a major theological change isn’t mentioned.
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You would have us believe that Jesus came to say, “absolutely nothing is changing, the end”? If the covenant hasn’t changed then Christ’s death on the cross is irrelevant. Under the Sinai covenant, how exactly does a man from the tribe of Judah dying on a cross, change anything in regards to our sin?


Edit: Jesus said “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations [ ethnos ], baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. Why did He later have to tell Peter in a vision that it was ok to go the gentiles, when He already told him to go to all nations? He taught them but that doesn’t mean they fully understood everything He taught them immediately.
 
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steve said:
Fixed it for them.
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JudahYAHites said:

…..teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you, as modified by what THOSE WHO TWIST Paul will SAY he taught: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. [Mat 28:18-20 KJV]

OK - had to just make one more tweak. It's not Paul's fault.

PS>
Now about what he commanded them to teach.
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It amazes me that a guy who doesn't even know what LANGUAGE He spoke, but DOES know that when He said He wasn't changing "one yod or one tiddle", He didn't mean it, still claims to know that He commanded them to teach contrary to His own Written Word.

PPS> Oh, good grief. And this:
Under the Sinai covenant, how exactly does a man from the tribe of Judah dying on a cross, change anything in regards to our sin?
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You really DIDN'T read ANY of that "Olde Testament," stuff, did you? Much less Galatians 3. What was the point of the 'schoolmaster'? Don't answer. Everyone else here with "eyes to see" should already know it.
 
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Asforme&myhouse said:
You would have us believe that Jesus came to say, “absolutely nothing is changing, the end”?
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You know very well what he said:
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

But you don’t want it to mean what it means.
 
steve said:
You know very well what he said:
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

But you don’t want it to mean what it means.
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What does it mean?
 
steve said:
What it says.
Not the tiniest mark will pass from the law until all is fulfilled, after heaven and earth has passed away.
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Ok, then how did Jesus not violate the law of Moses with His priesthood and His sacrifice? The law commands very specific things about atoning sacrifices and who is commanded to offer them.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
Ok, then how did Jesus not violate the law of Moses with His priesthood and His sacrifice? The law commands very specific things about atoning sacrifices and who is commanded to offer them.
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That I don’t presume to know.
I’m just a simple man who believes in the simple/obvious meaning of the scripture. That Yeshua’s statement doesn’t mate up with what Paul appears to say at first glance indicates to me that we don’t understand Paul very well.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
Now about what he commanded them to teach. After His resurrection, before He ascended, Jesus had just spent forty days under the new covenant teaching the Disciples. It is these teachings that He was referring to. These were the teachings of the new covenant. And it is these things that the Disciples then preached in Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. Before the crucifixion Jesus said in Matthew 10:5-6 KJV
[5] “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: [6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
After the resurrection He now sends them to Samaria and the whole world. Old covenant, law of Moses, Israel. New covenant, better promises, whole world.
Click to expand...
Believe it or not that is actually a roman catholic doctrine... like many of the others held onto by so called protestants.

I will simply reaffirm what I have said before, when you take the words of Jesus as the ultimate arbiter THEN read the letters of the apostles things are very clear. The issue is when one takes doctrine THEN frames the words of the apostles and THEN the words of Jesus within those doctrines all twisting is possible.

Think...

How long after the resurrection and ascension was Shaul converted?

Was it Paul who preached to the first Gentile converts?

How was it deemed that Cornelius was a "devout" man one who feared God, what did that all mean.

Contrary to what it seems a few on here believe, this is not a discussion with "opponents", we are ALL, brethren by the blood of Jesus and holy spirit, so getting out of that opponent mindset would also help.

I think nearly everyone in this discussion probably started in the faith hearing the exact doctrine that you and others are espousing because it is indeed the doctrine fed to the mainstream denominations within christianity... the many. The only difference is that there are the few who decided to challenge the mainstream doctrine with the word of YAH that is able to make one wise unto salvation.

Also, remember what Jesus said about the many and the few...
 
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