Here's a question.
And then on top of all that we have God, the Word made flesh violates the sabbath command. And leads his disciples to also violate Torah Laws.
29“See, the LORD has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” 30So the people rested on the seventh day.
They weren't remaining in their tent, they were walking around in a field collecting grain. That's two violations.
He then explains what many non-Torah keepers here have been attempting to convey. That it seems there are some here who are attempting to keep laws that are not needful and avoiding the weightier matters. They are trying to keep the letter and not the spirit of the law. They are placing themselves under bondage to a law that has been fulfilled and buried with Christ. That we should not be seeking to place ourselves in bondage to a law that will make the work of Christ of no effect. That's terrifying stuff brothers.
IF it is correct, that nothing of the law has passed away... Then why do we have scriptural proof some laws have passed away (or at least been fulfilled)? There have been numerous scriptural evidences presented that conclusively prove that some laws have been done away with or at the very least fulfilled for us, leaving us free to not attempt the keeping of those laws. And that to attempt to keep them specifically condemns us to death by making the work of Christ to no effect. This is clear, black and white, and requires twisting and wresting the apostle's words away from the clear plain meaning into something different.
In fact we've been given numerous instances where Paul specifically speaks about those who have been tricking and leading astray the ecclesia with false instructions for all believers to keep all Torah. He also instructs the people there and abroad who are of the house of Judah to continue keeping Torah, but does the opposite for Gentiles. And nowhere else afterward or concurrently were any of those people instructed to attend Torah lessons on how to keep the law. They were specifically and explicitly instructed to NOT do so.
How are you to handle the cognitive dissonance saying nothing of the law has passed away when believers are clearly instructed to NOT get physically circumcised? I've not seen one rational explanation for this.
I've got no problem with anybody keeping Torah. I'll happily fellowship without any discord, and I even ensure I eat specifically according to Levitical commands when doing so, I don't even bring unclean food or vessels into someone's home. Just the same as I do with alcohol when someone is weak in the faith about drinking beer.
But my issue is there are holes in the doctrine of keeping all of Torah so legion, that it boggles my mind how someone can walk that path if they've read the NT. Honestly the only way I can understand it is if one were to deny Paul (as some do), then all the Apostles, and then Jesus himself. This is exactly the spirit of the pharisees that was warned against. This is the warning about those who were troubling the believers, leading them astray from the Gospel. Telling them to return to the bondage of the law and the old covenant that was fulfilled and leave the new covenant they were given by Yeshua's own words.
Paul is speaking some strong language against those who are preaching that you must keep at least one of the laws of Torah. He's wishing that person would be cut off. Saying that person is hindering the truth, and that the persuasion to observe this law did not come from Yeshua who called them.
I'll let you guys chat back and forth. But I'd be interested to see if anybody can give an answer. Because what I've seen so far has been jaw dropping in it's lack of logic, rationale, and especially scripture. Lots of assumptions, lots of inconsistency, and very little logic/order.
- If the law was given to Israel, and for Israel.
- Not to and for the gentiles.
- And that law will not pass away till all be fulfilled.
- And then Christ comes and fulfills the law fully.
- God clearly establishes a new covenant, and says so in his own words.
- AND gentiles are specifically and explicitly instructed to NOT obey at least some of the Torah lest they be damned...
- And those gentiles were instructed to NOT listen to those who instruct them to give up their liberty and attempt to put themselves in bondage to the law....
And then on top of all that we have God, the Word made flesh violates the sabbath command. And leads his disciples to also violate Torah Laws.
29“See, the LORD has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” 30So the people rested on the seventh day.
They weren't remaining in their tent, they were walking around in a field collecting grain. That's two violations.
He then explains what many non-Torah keepers here have been attempting to convey. That it seems there are some here who are attempting to keep laws that are not needful and avoiding the weightier matters. They are trying to keep the letter and not the spirit of the law. They are placing themselves under bondage to a law that has been fulfilled and buried with Christ. That we should not be seeking to place ourselves in bondage to a law that will make the work of Christ of no effect. That's terrifying stuff brothers.
IF it is correct, that nothing of the law has passed away... Then why do we have scriptural proof some laws have passed away (or at least been fulfilled)? There have been numerous scriptural evidences presented that conclusively prove that some laws have been done away with or at the very least fulfilled for us, leaving us free to not attempt the keeping of those laws. And that to attempt to keep them specifically condemns us to death by making the work of Christ to no effect. This is clear, black and white, and requires twisting and wresting the apostle's words away from the clear plain meaning into something different.
In fact we've been given numerous instances where Paul specifically speaks about those who have been tricking and leading astray the ecclesia with false instructions for all believers to keep all Torah. He also instructs the people there and abroad who are of the house of Judah to continue keeping Torah, but does the opposite for Gentiles. And nowhere else afterward or concurrently were any of those people instructed to attend Torah lessons on how to keep the law. They were specifically and explicitly instructed to NOT do so.
How are you to handle the cognitive dissonance saying nothing of the law has passed away when believers are clearly instructed to NOT get physically circumcised? I've not seen one rational explanation for this.
I've got no problem with anybody keeping Torah. I'll happily fellowship without any discord, and I even ensure I eat specifically according to Levitical commands when doing so, I don't even bring unclean food or vessels into someone's home. Just the same as I do with alcohol when someone is weak in the faith about drinking beer.
But my issue is there are holes in the doctrine of keeping all of Torah so legion, that it boggles my mind how someone can walk that path if they've read the NT. Honestly the only way I can understand it is if one were to deny Paul (as some do), then all the Apostles, and then Jesus himself. This is exactly the spirit of the pharisees that was warned against. This is the warning about those who were troubling the believers, leading them astray from the Gospel. Telling them to return to the bondage of the law and the old covenant that was fulfilled and leave the new covenant they were given by Yeshua's own words.
Paul is speaking some strong language against those who are preaching that you must keep at least one of the laws of Torah. He's wishing that person would be cut off. Saying that person is hindering the truth, and that the persuasion to observe this law did not come from Yeshua who called them.
I'll let you guys chat back and forth. But I'd be interested to see if anybody can give an answer. Because what I've seen so far has been jaw dropping in it's lack of logic, rationale, and especially scripture. Lots of assumptions, lots of inconsistency, and very little logic/order.
— Ephesians 5:9 KJV