Acts 15/Galatians 2 To C or not to C

[Pacman]

@cnystrom @Cap

What do you think this means?

“Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:14-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

 

[The Revolting Man]

@cnystrom @Cap

What do you think this means?

“Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:14-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Wait, people without law are in error and can deztabilize you? Hold the phone....that must mean something but what oh what could it be? It's a shame Peter's writings are hard to understand and cause people to twist them to their own destruction...oh no, that's Paul. I'm so confused!

 

[FollowingHim]

Ding, ding, ding!. Someone asking the correct question!

I agree it's the correct question. What's the correct answer - more critically, why is that the answer?

 

[Pacman]

The problem being that the Jews who were persecuting them at that time (v29) followed both the written Torah and the oral laws of the Pharisees.

I think this is only partly correct. If they were following the Pharisees then they by definition could not have been following the Torah. The Torah expressly forbids adding to or taking away. The Pharisees were guilty of both. So I would conclude that they were in violation of Torah and only following the Pharisees... perhaps this helps clear up this question.

 

[Nikud]

If a founder of our faith calls someone who teaches circumcision for gentiles a "dog" and and "men who do evil" then it is not a small point. It is a cardinal difference and a major point in our faith and those that teach something else are outside the faith.

Yeshua is the founder of my faith, Paul is a servant that we were warned that his teachings are confusing and you can lose your salvation in them. It's clear that he never taught against Torah. plain reading, Torah teaches circumsim of the flesh on the 8th day, and of those purchased with money and became part of a household that way by the descendants of Abraham. To those who have a physical inheritance in the lands promised under the covenant or be cut off from that covenant and not receive that inheritance. Not those grafted in with and inheritance in the future kingdom. Torah teaches circumsim of the heart for salvation. Torah does not require Gentiles to get circumcised. It may be benificial to actually read what Torah says so at least you'd understand what you say is being taught against. If you Philippians 3 (explains if it's read) is addressing the ones teaching circumsim for Salvation and or that Gentiles have to get circumcised both teachings Paul taught against in accordance to..... Torah. This is what I find sad, not only are things being taken out of context, lawlessness which is condemned in all of scripture and what scripture shows we had to be forgiven of, why Yeshua died is suddenly ok, meaning He died so you can eat a blt.
Paul mentioned teaching about the Gospel lets go back there.

What is The Gospel of the Kingdom?

 

[Verifyveritas76]

The question here is, what "law" is Paul speaking of? The problem being that the Jews who were persecuting them at that time (v29) followed both the written Torah and the oral laws of the Pharisees. So this statement can be read from both perspectives to reach two different conclusions. Is the law that he is comparing to slavery the Torah, or the laws of the Pharisees?

I’d agree that the beginning of investigation should be which law.

I’d say it is more germane to determine which laws these Pharisee’s were using to persecute them. Everything I’ve found post Crucifixion has been an argument from Torah, not Pharisaical traditions.

I hear “traditions” often, but when I’ve investigated further, it usually ends up being someone who doesnt know Torah very well, who has mislabeled and dismissed Torah as traditions. Or worse, someone who does know Torah very well and is utilizing deflection and deception to steer the conversation.

IF the conversation ended at the end of chapter 4, I’d say you had a salient point about the confusion between two laws. However, the primary attack of these men was circumcision. A decidedly Torah principle. Being that the conversation continues immediately in Chapter 5, I’d say that Paul clears it up rather quickly.

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you,†whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen [cast off] from grace.

And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
But God forbid †that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

If God cast us into the nations and says that when we begin to obey Him in the nations where He has banished us (Deu. 31:1-4)
and if some commands can only be carried out in the Land
then part of His judgment is to limit how much of the Torah we can keep.

If God commands sacrifice, and
If Yeshua said not one jot or tittle will pass from the Torah, and
Then, sacrifice and the whole of Torah still stand.

If sacrifice is commanded,
But the conditions for sacrifice (Temple and Levites) do not exist,
Then, sacrifice is still an ordinance that is simply suspended, and
The suspension is part of the judgment against us. (Same as being cast out of the Land)

If sacrifice is commanded, and
If sacrifices were lawfully being made AFTER Yeshua's resurrection (Hebrews 8:4),
Then, future sacrifice, according to prophecy, is a correct expectation.

If every jot and tittle remain until heaven and earth pass away, and
If heaven and earth do not pass away until after the millennial reign, and
If He is not a priest on earth (Heb. 8:4),
Then, it is the complete Mt. Sinai Torah He will teach from Zion and write on our hearts.

If every jot and tittle remain until heaven and earth pass away, and
If heaven and earth do not pass away until after the millennial reign, and
If it is the sons of Zadok who stand before Him in the Millennial Temple (Eze. 44:15ff)​

Then, The Levitical order is the one in charge in the Millennium.



God clearly says that sacrifice is only to be done at the place that He set His name, by a Levitical Priesthood at the gate of the Temple. Because those conditions do not exist does not mean He has changed or that His Word has failed, particularly in light of the fact that He tells us that sacrifice will return. HE says His Torah is forever and that not a jot or tittle will pass. That is not me holding Torah in such high regard. That is Elohim.

Here is the Torah standard. Deuteronomy 12:5 God.
But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come:
And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:
And there ye shall eat before the LORD your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the LORD thy God hath blessed thee.

The argument of the lack of a Temple is a deflection at best. The command is for the place out of all your tribes where God makes his habitation. Wherever that is is where Torah commands sacrifices.

Jer. 7:12 But go ye now unto my place which was in Shiloh, where I set my name at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel. And now, because ye have done all these works, . . . Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.

First God placed his name in a tabernacle, and then He had Moses make him a Tabernacle. Both of these without a land association. Then Joshua establishes the Tabernacle in Shiloh, and later God removes his name from Shiloh and establishes it at Jerusalem. Then God removes his name from the Temple at Jerusalem which he gave to Israel and their fathers just like he did to Shiloh.

This is not a biblically justifiable reason to stop sacrifices, just because there is no physical temple at Jerusalem. Thats equivalent to them saying that there’s not a biblically justifiable reason to continue sacrifices at Jerusalem, once God removes his name from Shiloh.

Why is this not a biblically justifiable reason to stop sacrifices?

I Cor. 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

God did exactly what he did with Shiloh to Jerusalem and we believers are now the literal house of God. So . . . WE are the place that God has chosen out of all our tribes to put his name there, and we are now his habitation.
In the land, not in the land . . . That condition has no bearing, just as it didnt when God gave Torah. It is a sleight of hand that is used to deflect or justify partial observance of Torah.

According to Deuteronomy 12:5&6 we are to be offering a whole host of burnt offerings, sacrifices, tithes, heave offerings, vows, freewill offerings and the firstlings of herds and flocks and feast on them.

Doubt that? Check out the command given to all Israel as God is giving the Ten Commandments.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

This command was the earliest Torah command to sacrifice where God records his name by the whole nation.


So, the challenge still remains: If God holds his Torah to the level you say he does, why no more Torah commanded sacrifice?

 

[FollowingHim]

plain reading, Torah teaches circumsim of the flesh on the 8th day, and of those purchased with money and became part of a household that way by the descendants of Abraham. To those who have a physical inheritance in the lands promised under the covenant or be cut off from that covenant and not receive that inheritance. Not those grafted in with and inheritance in the future kingdom. Torah teaches circumsim of the heart for salvation. Torah does not require Gentiles to get circumcised. It may be benificial to actually read what Torah says so at least you'd understand what you say is being taught against.

@Kevin, this has been such a long thread that has jumped over so many topics, that I'm not entirely clear what your position is, and I'm very interested in it as you seem to have a middle-ground view here. You've probably made this clear already but I cannot find it for some reason.

Am I correct in thinking that you are saying: Gentiles do not need to be circumcised, and never have needed to be circumcised. However, the remainder of Torah is still relevant to them, and they are required to follow it despite not being circumcised.

If I've understood you correctly, what is your understanding of Exodus 12:48?

I'm not debating anything here, I'm actually trying to figure out what's correct as I'm unsure, and can see good points on both sides. In such cases, the truth tends to be in the middle somewhere.

 

[PeteR]

I agree it's the correct question. What's the correct answer - more critically, why is that the answer?

I'm waiting for my good friends of the opposition party to answer. If they can't, then I'll be happy to address.

 

[Nikud]

If I've understood you correctly, what is your understanding of Exodus 12:48?

I'm going to step on some toes here.
Torah is the First Five books. Not every Instruction that is Given in the First 5 books are ment as a Law, there a many only ment for the person instructed. If we can't accept that, then we all need to get to building an Ark, and altar to lay our firstborn son on and sacrifice him, hoping God stays our hand. That being said this is not a opt out of for people to say God gave this to only so and so, I can eat a blt if I want. There is a difference from what was given as instruction from God to men in a situtation from what was instruction given as law set as the standard for living a life obedient to God. As Paul said all of scripture is the good for instruction, I'm pointing out not everything given in scripture was given as a law, that's just man resting on His own understanding. Look at the language, circumstances and you'll get the context.

Context:

They are preparing for Passover and to leaving Egypt for the lands that were promised to Abraham by covenant with him for his physical descendent. Their physical Inheritance. A shadow of The Kingdom of Heaven here on earth (what Gospel of the Kingdom what Yeshua, John, and the Prophets preached). So here we have The Father who setting the path, He is fulfilling the promise He made to Abraham, Isaacs, and Jacob. Those men who are getting circumcised are getting part of the physical Inheritance.

The Physical Passover here, is for those who had stake in the physical Inheritance. Those who are at that moment facing Judgement and Death of the First Born. You have those who are joining them in their physical Inheritance, and we have a instruction from God before the Sinai covenant. God extending the physical Inheritance to those leaving. This is not Torah as set as law at Sinai.

The anniversary of Passover which foreshadows Yeshua and the day when His blood protects us from Judgement on the day of judgement and God keeps His promise of Salvation {Has not Happened Yet unless the day of Judgement has come and gone and we all missed it, darn that olam promise} is celebrated in vain without a circumcised heart. When we start to see that the Feast and Sabbath are only pleasing to God if our hearts are of Him in obedience to Him and when we start to see that if our hearts are of this world the and we celebrate His feast then they're ours Feast celebrating the world not Him. We start to understand what the prophets wrote instead of resting on our own understanding and subtracting from the word of God to justify loop holes.

----------------------------From Here we head to Sinai different conversation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

He sets in Law His physical Inheritance from the covenants from the 3 Patriarchs, which is showing that He has Integrity an keeps His promises. Which takes away any justification to say that The lands that were promised don't belong to those he promised them to. Something many believers have claimed, thus making it easier to say God broke other promises as well. Its easy when you say the law is defunct or abolished to say this and make God a covenant breaking liar. He also sets the standard that it circumcision of the Heart that gives salvation in Torah. Salvation is the key to the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom He has promise is coming to replace all earthly Kingdoms. Nobody has an inheritance in the Eternal Kingdom with out Yeshua and the salvation He delivers.
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Yeshua, didn't die for our lawlessness (sin) to do way with the law so we can live in lawlessness. That belief makes His death for nothing. It's crucifying Him over and over again with each act of lawlessness we do.

For those out there obsessing about men with flint razors coming to touch your dangly bits, stop obsessing.

Once again People should read The Torah, specifically what is given as law. The Whole law is a reference to what the Pharisee call the oral and written or also translated as the complete law. That is well documented. Knowledge of The Gospel of the Kingdom is important to understand what Yeshua was teaching. He sent them out before He was crucified to teach it.

*I edited To make it seem less Judgy. If you liked Check again to make sure I didn't change what you liked*

 

[Jim an Apostle]

The covenant of Sinai is directly addressed. The real issue is obedience and obedience to what! Just because one does a similar action it does not require the same reason. I do not believe in murder, because the Spirit is against murder. I do not have to have the Law (Torah) to convince me of that. The Law is for the unbeliever and the child. We are to be sons by the Spirit and to have a conscience that supersedes Law. the Legalists passed by the wounded man and did not help him.
We must progress into a relationship beyond the Just the Book to have a relationship with the Author.

Indwelling was not available until the Pentecost of Acts.

Yes the morality of God has not changed, however the true morality of God is found in the Spirit and the Kingdom, not in New Moons and Sabbaths.
If a person has no discernment of God's will without Law they will most likely not have much Fruit in their life. The Letter killeth the Spirit giveth Life!

 

[Nikud]

The covenant of Sinai is directly addressed. The real issue is obedience and obedience to what! Just because one does a similar action it does not require the same reason. I do not believe in murder, because the Spirit is against murder. I do not have to have the Law (Torah) to convince me of that. The Law is for the unbeliever and the child. We are to be sons by the Spirit and to have a conscience that supersedes Law. the Legalists passed by the wounded man and did not help him.
We must progress into a relationship beyond the Just the Book to have a relationship with the Author.

Indwelling was not available until the Pentecost of Acts.

Yes the morality of God has not changed, however the true morality of God is found in the Spirit and the Kingdom, not in New Moons and Sabbaths.
If a person has no discernment of God's will without Law they will most likely not have much Fruit in their life. The Letter killeth the Spirit giveth Life!

Thank you. I rather like being compared to a child and I agree Torah is for children. Train up a child in the way he should go,

when he is old he will not turn from it.

“Amen, I tell you, unless you turn and become like children, you shall never enter the kingdom of heaven."
-Yeshua​

Indwelling was not available until the Pentecost of Acts.

Tell that to John the Baptist.

the Legalists passed by the wounded man and did not help him.

Legalism is finding loop whole to get out of obeying to the Instructions of Yah. It is interpreting the written law while divorcing it from the spirit to justify not obeying it. We see this in secular laws when loop holes are used to get around the intention of the law as well in the actions that all Pharisee do regardless of what Era the live in.

If a person has no discernment of God's will without Law they will most likely not have much Fruit in their life. The Letter killeth the Spirit giveth Life!

"Now this I pray, that your love might overflow still more and more in knowledge and depth of discernment, in order to approve what is excellent—so that in the Day of Messiah you may be sincere and blameless, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Yeshua the Messiah, to the glory and praise of God."
-Paul

Romans 7:4-13

4 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you also were made dead to the Torah through the body of Messiah , so that you might be joined to another—the One who was raised from the dead—in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions that came through the Torah were working in our body parts to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the law, having died to what confined us, so that we serve in the new way of the Ruach and not in the old way of the letter.

(With out Yeshua, with out the Ruach your just dead flesh, when your told no do that or you must do that your flesh rebels against The Fathers instructions and you give in to the flesh. But when your born again You have His spirit which gives you the ability to walk in the spirit of the law not the old way of the written letter your flesh deceived you into rebellion against, like finding loop holes around for not obeying, just saying)

7 What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the Torah. For I would not have known about coveting if the Torah had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking an opportunity, worked in me through the commandment all kinds of coveting. For apart from the Torah, sin is dead.

(Is Torah observance sinful? Nope it shows lawlessness for what it is. Sin. In context when your sinful nature is dead {your rebellion against God} Torah is apart from mans rebellious nature, sin is dead.)

9 Once I was alive apart from the Torah; but when the commandment came, sin came to life 10 and I died. The commandment meant for life was found to cause death. 11 Sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Torah is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

(The condemnation that comes when you realize your a sinner. The realization that you are not following the way God instructed you to live a good life in fellowship with Him, and the death that comes from disfellowship from God, Leviticus 5:3 “Or if he touches some human uncleanness, whatever his filth is by which he is unclean, though it is hidden from him, when he knows of it, then he will be guilty.)

13 Therefore did that which is good become death to me? May it never be! Rather it was sin working death in me—through that which is good—so that sin might be shown to be sin, and that through the instruction sin might become utterly sinful.

(Is Torah Evil? Did Torah kill you. Nope it was your own sinful nature, your own rebellion, your own lawlessness working in you. His instructions, now that you have the Ruach, it shows sin is utterly sinful, no loop holes.)


"It’s not what goes into the mouth that makes the man unholy; but what comes out of the mouth, this makes the man unholy.”

-Yeshua

Disobedience, Rebellion, Lawlessness, Sin. A call to accountability anyone?

The Law is for the unbeliever.

Show that in scripture where it says "The Law is for the unbeliever". Where it actually says that not an interpretation but those words. You cant because it does not say that. You made that up to try to make it seem like those who keep Torah are unbelievers. You sir, have taught beliefs shown here in this post to contradict scripture and some opinions presented as a biblical truth to justify your loop holes. Remember you say your an Apostle so what you say is not presented as opinion but what God has sent you out to teach. If your teaching something that contradicts or you cant show in scripture.....yeah.​

 

[Cap]

The question here is, what "law" is Paul speaking of? The problem being that the Jews who were persecuting them at that time (v29) followed both the written Torah and the oral laws of the Pharisees. So this statement can be read from both perspectives to reach two different conclusions. Is the law that he is comparing to slavery the Torah, or the laws of the Pharisees?

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

This Law spoken of in this passage is written and the story told from Genesis and therefore I would assume it is from the written Torah. I don't see how it could be taken from an oral law, although the oral law, I'm pretty sure, includes the written.

Another question would be, since you say that the statement (in the verses about Sarah and Hagar) can apply to the oral law traditions, how so? What is the oral law prospective of the story of Sarah and Hagar?

 

[Cap]

@cnystrom @Cap

What do you think this means?

“Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:14-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

To me it means, that we could ALL be wrong.

 

[Cap]

Yeshua is the founder of my faith, Paul is a servant that we were warned that his teachings are confusing and you can lose your salvation in them. It's clear that he never taught against Torah. plain reading, Torah teaches circumsim of the flesh on the 8th day, and of those purchased with money and became part of a household that way by the descendants of Abraham. To those who have a physical inheritance in the lands promised under the covenant or be cut off from that covenant and not receive that inheritance. Not those grafted in with and inheritance in the future kingdom. Torah teaches circumsim of the heart for salvation. Torah does not require Gentiles to get circumcised. It may be benificial to actually read what Torah says so at least you'd understand what you say is being taught against. If you Philippians 3 (explains if it's read) is addressing the ones teaching circumsim for Salvation and or that Gentiles have to get circumcised both teachings Paul taught against in accordance to..... Torah. This is what I find sad, not only are things being taken out of context, lawlessness which is condemned in all of scripture and what scripture shows we had to be forgiven of, why Yeshua died is suddenly ok, meaning He died so you can eat a blt.
Paul mentioned teaching about the Gospel lets go back there.

What is The Gospel of the Kingdom?

John 18:36 Jesus answered, b“My kingdom cis not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, dmy servants would have been fighting, that eI might not be delivered over to the Jews (why doesn't he say Pharisees here). But my kingdom is not from the world.”

Romans 14:17 hFor the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but iof righteousness and jpeace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

 

[The Revolting Man]

The covenant of Sinai is directly addressed. The real issue is obedience and obedience to what! Just because one does a similar action it does not require the same reason. I do not believe in murder, because the Spirit is against murder. I do not have to have the Law (Torah) to convince me of that. The Law is for the unbeliever and the child. We are to be sons by the Spirit and to have a conscience that supersedes Law. the Legalists passed by the wounded man and did not help him.
We must progress into a relationship beyond the Just the Book to have a relationship with the Author.

Indwelling was not available until the Pentecost of Acts.

Yes the morality of God has not changed, however the true morality of God is found in the Spirit and the Kingdom, not in New Moons and Sabbaths.
If a person has no discernment of God's will without Law they will most likely not have much Fruit in their life. The Letter killeth the Spirit giveth Life!

Almost all of the fruit in my life came.acter I quit hanging around altars begging for an authentic tongues experience and deliverance that never came. Of course I am counting my 14 children who are all in the faith as fruits. Maybe they're not. There aren't many people around who can say they've brought 14 people to Christ, 7 if you split them with their mothers.

 

[Cap]

Almost all of the fruit in my life came.acter I quit hanging around altars begging for an authentic tongues experience and deliverance that never came. Of course I am counting my 14 children who are all in the faith as fruits. Maybe they're not. There aren't many people around who can say they've brought 14 people to Christ, 7 if you split them with their mothers.

Just because you had a bad experience with the church doesn't mean the message about the spirit of God is wrong. We have all been hurt by the church to some degree. That's pretty much why we are here and not there.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

Show that in scripture where it says "The Law is for the unbeliever".

1 Timothy 1
9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Romans 10
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[Nikud]

1 Timothy 1
9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Nice Try. Next time read the chapter and get the context that a google search doesn't give.

1 Timothy 1


1 Paul, an emissary of Messiah Yeshua by the command of God our Savior and Messiah Yeshua, our hope.


2 To Timothy, a true child in faith:

Grace, mercy, shalom from God the Father and Messiah Yeshua, our Lord!

3 As I urged you, when I was leaving for Macedonia, stay in Ephesus to direct certain people not to pass on different instruction, 4 or to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies. These give rise to useless speculations rather than God’s training which is in faithfulness. 5 Now the goal of this command is love from of a pure heart and a clear conscience and a genuine faith. 6 Some, having missed the mark, have turned away to fruitless discussion— 7 wanting to be teachers of Torah, even though they do not understand what they keep saying or what they so dogmatically assert.

8 But we know that the Torah is good if one uses it legitimately, 9 knowing that the Torah is not given for a righteous but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and worldly, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, homosexuals, slave-traders, liars, perjurers, and for anything else that opposes sound teaching— 11 in keeping with what was entrusted to me, the glorious Good News of the blessed God.

The righteous obey His instructions, why because the spirit leads you to obey His instructions His Torah. The Torah was given so the lawless will know their sins. You want to be a teacher of Torah and say its by the Spirit not the written and say the written is gone despite the Words of the Messiah. You don't understand what the written says or that it takes both. The spirit to give you strength and circumcise your heart to be able to keep the written. Torah to walk in submission to God.​

Romans 10
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Check your translation and the context.

4 For Messiah is the goal of the Torah as a means to righteousness for everyone who keeps trusting.

First the context is about salvation. Torah does not give Salvation only Yeshua does. Nobody is disputing that. If you cant see that, maybe you to rethink this whole Apostle Gig. Second You keep trying to show that those who keep the law are vile. Lets set aside the fact that Yeshua kept the Law, and God gave the Law, and Paul said the law was not evil. All you've proven is your not willing to listen to anyone but the spirit? guiding you.

Edited a bit realized a personal attack. Did not mean to imply you were being driven by a foul spirit just your own understanding.

 

[Pacman]

Romans 10
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Same Greek word there for end ... I guess based on your application of it we don't need faith anymore?