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Acts 15/Galatians 2 To C or not to C

1 Peter 1:13-16 NASB
Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. [14] As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, [15] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; [16] because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”


Folks Peter is pointing these believers back to Lev 11 and Lev 19 to tell them how they should behave. That phrase in vs 16 is only found in those passages please read them in context. Set aside your bias and tell me what does this mean?

@Jim an Apostle @Verifyveritas76 @Cap I am specifically talking to you. Please explain to me what this means? No deflections please I am asking for a full explanation from scripture in context...
 
Galatians 2
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
 
4 For Messiah is the goal of the Torah as a means to righteousness for everyone who keeps trusting.

My understanding of the word you have in your quote "goal" (telos in Greek) is a lesser, not prime meaning of the word telos.

From biblehub.com:

5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

From biblestudytools.com:
  1. end
    1. termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
    2. the end
      1. the last in any succession or series
      2. eternal
    3. that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
    4. the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
  2. toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)

From billmounce.com:

Definition:
an end attained, consummation; an end, closing act, Mt. 24:6, 14; 1 Cor. 15:24; full performance, perfect discharge, Rom. 10:4; fulfillment, realization, Lk. 22:37; final dealing, developed issue, Jas. 5:11; issue, final stage, 1 Cor. 10:11; issue, result, Mt. 26:58; Rom. 6:21, 22; 1 Pet. 1:9; antitypical issue, 2 Cor. 3:13; practical issue, 1 Tim. 1:5; ultimate destiny, Phil. 3:19; Heb. 6:8; 1 Pet. 4:17; a tax or dues, Mt. 17:25; Rom. 13:7; εἰς τέλος, to the full, 1 Thess. 2:16; εἰς τέλος, continually, Lk. 18:5; εἰς τέλος, μέχρι, ἄχρι τέλους, throughout, Mt. 10:22; Mk. 13:13; Jn. 13:1; Heb. 3:6, 14; 6:11; Rev. 2:26

I add this to the discussion being as most translations in English do not use the word "goal" due to its lessor significance.

I'm not wishing to start a dispute, but I'm just giving a caution to not hang too much on a minor possible translation, though, I realize it is tempting to do that if it helps out our own position on an issue.
 
I add this to the discussion being as most translations in English do not use the word "goal" due to its lessor significance.

Or Due to the Christianity bias of the translators that the law has ended. Any thoughts on this?
 
The Law could not make one righteous or Holy, all it could really do was point out ones failure and sin. Abraham was justified by Faith the Law was added but could not give eternal Life, that requires the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Our righteousness only exceeds that of the Pharisees if we trust in Christ for our righteousness rather than our works. Yes Faith is demonstrated by obedience. the ultimate Obedience is to the Spirit as demonstrated by Abraham not Law. Just because Circumcision was incorporated into the Law does not make Abrahams obedience an act of Law. My uncircumcision is not an act of disobedience either unless the Spirit would direct me otherwise. The first apostles set forth a code of morality that in itself is not trying to maintain Law especially when the practice of Sabbaths and meats and drinks is not now required. The Law could not make your righteous or Holy; it could only declare you to be so, if you could keep it, but ALL have sinned except Jesus. The curse of the Law is none effect for the believer. Salvation is by Grace through Faith. My Faith is not in my ability to keep Law rather, that Christ suffered my penalty and now sets me free if, I am repentant and living in faith (and obedience to the Spirit ) to His satisfaction.

If you truly believe that that obedience to Faith requires your obedience to Law (Torah) then Live your life in that pursuit. I believe the scripture teaches that by the definition of Law I cannot keep it correctly and I should chose to follow faith. The Just shall live by faith.

It is not aggreged upon,
even
by those here, what day the Sabbath is really on, or if it changes with the New Moon!

God allowed the destruction of the temple by the Babylonians because they did not keep the law. The destruction of 70 AD was for their rejection of the work of the Holy Spirit. They had 40 years to accept the Spirit in their midst but rather clung to Law.

The natural branches were cut off, the Gentiles were grafted in, the natural branches will be grafted in again! For now there is a New Man neither Jew or Greek,
but of Christ by the Spirit!

Acts 15
22Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

The letter did not say study the Law and learn to keep it at a later date!
 
Galatians 2
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Context again

15 We are Jews by birth and not sinners from among the Gentiles. 16 Yet we know that a person is set right not by deeds based on Torah, but rather through putting trust in Messiah Yeshua.

For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without deeds is dead. Once again we are talking about Yeshua (The perfect Torah Keeper) being our way to salvation and righteousness by following His example and His Instructions. He is also God the one who gave the Laws, Is He not?

So even we have put our trust in Messiah Yeshua, in order that we might be set right based on trust in Messiah and not by deeds based on Torah—because no human will be justified by deeds based on Torah.

No salvation in Torah only Instruction of the Father on how to live. Its the relationship that gives salvation See Ezekiel 14 for men who had a relationship whos righteousness because of their relationship could only save themselves, unlike the Messiahs righteousness who saves us all.

17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Messiah, we ourselves also were found to be sinners, is Messiah then an agent of sin? May it never be!

We can be in Messiah and still sin? How do we know what is sin? Is its the Messiahs fault we sin ,which is breaking the law. Nope its not his fault. Its our lawless actions, our disobedience when He said to sin no more.

18 For if I rebuild the very things I tore down, I prove myself to be a law-breaker.

What did he tear down? The teachings of the Rabbis, the misapplication of Torah, Lawless behavior of the Pharisee who added and subtracted to the Law, the Idolatry of the Gentile believers, the pagan practices they tried to bring in, the attempt to deny the Ruach HaKodesh all the sin and lawlessness that the flesh of man loves.

19 For through law I died to law, so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Messiah; 20 and it is no longer I who live, but Messiah lives in me. And the life I now live in the body, I live by trusting in Ben-Elohim—who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

There is this misconception that we who observe Torah live for Torah. I live for God, so do many. The wages of sin are death. God is just we must die according to the Law so that we can be born again and live in Messiah. He redeemed us. On that day of Judgement He's going to say that man is dead, This man belongs to me. Except the Luke warm...He knows them not. What types of things did they say but we did....only the things of the Spirit. No relationship no submission to Him

21 I do not nullify the grace of God—for if righteousness comes through Torah, then Messiah died for no reason!

I do not rely on Torah for the unmerited favor He gave from the beginning starting at creation through Yeshua and to now. Torah does not give Salvation only the Messiah.

We already addressed this.
 
God allowed the destruction of the temple by the Babylonians because they did not keep the law. The destruction of 70 AD was for their rejection of the work of the Holy Spirit. They had 40 years to accept the Spirit in their midst but rather clung to Law.

Do you have any proof for this ridiculous claim?
 
The Law could not make one righteous or Holy, all it could really do was point out ones failure and sin. Abraham was justified by Faith the Law was added but could not give eternal Life, that requires the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Our righteousness only exceeds that of the Pharisees if we trust in Christ for our righteousness rather than our works. Yes Faith is demonstrated by obedience. the ultimate Obedience is to the Spirit as demonstrated by Abraham not Law. Just because Circumcision was incorporated into the Law does not make Abrahams obedience an act of Law. My uncircumcision is not an act of disobedience either unless the Spirit would direct me otherwise. The first apostles set forth a code of morality that in itself is not trying to maintain Law especially when the practice of Sabbaths and meats and drinks is not now required. The Law could not make your righteous or Holy; it could only declare you to be so, if you could keep it, but ALL have sinned except Jesus. The curse of the Law is none effect for the believer. Salvation is by Grace through Faith. My Faith is not in my ability to keep Law rather, that Christ suffered my penalty and now sets me free if, I am repentant and living in faith (and obedience to the Spirit ) to His satisfaction.

If you truly believe that that obedience to Faith requires your obedience to Law (Torah) then Live your life in that pursuit. I believe the scripture teaches that by the definition of Law I cannot keep it correctly and I should chose to follow faith. The Just shall live by faith.

It is not aggreged upon,
even
by those here, what day the Sabbath is really on, or if it changes with the New Moon!

God allowed the destruction of the temple by the Babylonians because they did not keep the law. The destruction of 70 AD was for their rejection of the work of the Holy Spirit. They had 40 years to accept the Spirit in their midst but rather clung to Law.

The natural branches were cut off, the Gentiles were grafted in, the natural branches will be grafted in again! For now there is a New Man neither Jew or Greek,
but of Christ by the Spirit!

Acts 15
22Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

The letter did not say study the Law and learn to keep it at a later date!


This is a huge amount of opinion backed up by zero scripture sir. Please bring scripture in context to back up what you claim.
 
Or Due to the Christianity bias of the translators that the law has ended. Any thoughts on this?

Yes, my thoughts...

We all have bias one way or the other. Most translations of the New Testament into most languages since the time it was first written in Greek (at least the not a few I have access to) have not chosen the minor sense for telos in Romans 10:4. I tend to believe God has been preserving His word down through the centuries and thus, the majority sense rendered by most translators probably has more to do with that preserving by God than just translator bias against law-keeping. Additionally, the minor sense of a word must have an application sometime somewhere. However, usually if there is a case where it appears right to use a minor sense, such a case does not normally override prime meaning majority usage. But yes, it can appear to override if it supports our own theological bias.

As an aside note: I often check or read over 100 translations some of which are not in English. I’m glad I’m not limited to just what English translators come up with. Sometimes there can be a language-usage bias almost “built-in” to certain languages due to lack of optional words available to properly render the Greek. But I don’t see how that is what is happening with telos in Romans 10:4. The evidence from all I can find compels me to stand with the majority.
 
The letter did not say study the Law and learn to keep it at a later date!
Acts is not a letter its like Chronicles and King a History lesson.

If you truly believe that that obedience to Faith requires your obedience to Law (Torah) then Live your life in that pursuit. I believe the scripture teaches that by the definition of Law I cannot keep it correctly and I should chose to follow faith. The Just shall live by faith.
That's find live your life according to what you believe I'm not your Judge, I'm not telling you how to live. I'm just standing against what is scripture being taken out of context.

Acts 15
22Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

This has been explained if you actually read the thread.

God allowed the destruction of the temple by the Babylonians because they did not keep the law.
True

The destruction of 70 AD was for their rejection of the work of the Holy Spirit. They had 40 years to accept the Spirit in their midst but rather clung to Law.
It was rejection of Yeshua not the work of the Ruach. You don't know many Jews do you. They don't Reject the Ruach HaKodesh, the Holy spirit. They believe it does exactly what it does. Where to you think a lot of the Pentecostal practices come from. Tongues is by my understanding a new manifestation but I could be wrong, I've only seen that beleif in beleivers in Messiah.
The natural branches were cut off, the Gentiles were grafted in, the natural branches will be grafted in again! For now there is a New Man neither Jew or Greek,
but of Christ by the Spirit!
Some of the branches not all. Only the ones who rejected Yeshua.

I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He knew beforehand Or do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Adonai, they have killed your prophets, they have destroyed your altars; I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.”4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So in the same way also at this present time there has come to be a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained; but the elect obtained it, and the rest were hardened— 8 just as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes not to see and ears not to hear,
until this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened so they do not see,
and bend their back continually.”

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their false step salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke Israel to jealousy. 12 Now if their transgression leads to riches for the world, and their loss riches for the Gentiles, then how much more their fullness! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Insofar as I am an emissary to the Gentiles, I spotlight my ministry 14 if somehow I might provoke to jealousy my own flesh and blood and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection leads to the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first fruit is holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off and you—being a wild olive—were grafted in among them and became a partaker of the root of the olive tree with its richness, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, it is not you who support the root but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 True enough. They were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear— 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. 22 Notice then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell; but God’s kindness toward you, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off!
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of that which by nature is a wild olive tree, and grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

The Law could not make one righteous or Holy, all it could really do was point out ones failure and sin. Abraham was justified by Faith the Law was added but could not give eternal Life, that requires the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
It isn't the law. Its the man obedience to God Instructions, which the Law is, the submission to His will that sets us apart if were in Messiah. Nobody says the Law gives eternal life you keep saying it but know one else is. The Holy Spirit didn't give Salvation, Yeshua delivered Salvation. The Ruach was Here before Yeshua. It Brought instruction not Salvation.
the ultimate Obedience is to the Spirit as demonstrated by Abraham not Law
because Abraham listened to My voice and kept My charge, My mitzvot, My decrees, and My Torah 8451 .”

8451. torah
Strong's Concordance
torah: direction, instruction, law
Original Word: תּוֹרָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: torah
Phonetic Spelling: (to-raw')
Definition: direction, instruction, law

You've proven you don't know understand scripture. You mimic what you've been taught but you make up the rest according to your belief. Live as you want. Sir you are no Apostle its clear from your lack of knowledge and Ruach given discernment about when scripture speaks of salvation, especially if you say it was the Ruach that gives Eternal life.

2 Corinthians 11:12-15
12 But what I am doing I will continue to do, so that I may cut off the opportunity from those who want an opportunity in what they boast about to also be regarded just as we are. 13 For such men are false Apostles, deceitful workers masquerading as Messiah’s emissaries. 14 And no wonder, for even satan masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is no great thing therefore if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be according to their deeds.

May God be merciful to those you've deceived about salvation.
 
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Yes, my thoughts...

We all have bias one way or the other. Most translations of the New Testament into most languages since the time it was first written in Greek (at least the not a few I have access to) have not chosen the minor sense for telos in Romans 10:4. I tend to believe God has been preserving His word down through the centuries and thus, the majority sense rendered by most translators probably has more to do with that preserving by God than just translator bias against law-keeping. Additionally, the minor sense of a word must have an application sometime somewhere. However, usually if there is a case where it appears right to use a minor sense, such a case does not normally override prime meaning majority usage. But yes, it can appear to override if it supports our own theological bias.

As an aside note: I often check or read over 100 translations some of which are not in English. I’m glad I’m not limited to just what English translators come up with. Sometimes there can be a language-usage bias almost “built-in” to certain languages due to lack of optional words available to properly render the Greek. But I don’t see how that is what is happening with telos in Romans 10:4. The evidence from all I can find compels me to stand with the majority.

Bro The “this” in my post was a link to:

1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Same Greek word there for end ... I guess based on your application of it we don't need faith anymore?

Please answer the question I asked...
 
This is another link to an unanswered question sir.
 
5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

1 Peter 1:8-9
Though you have not seen Him, you love Him. And even though you don’t see Him now, you trust Him and are filled with a joy that is glorious beyond words
,receiving the goal/purpose 5056 of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

  1. end
    1. termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
    2. the end
      1. the last in any succession or series
      2. eternal
    3. that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
    4. the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
  2. toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)

We all have an serious issue if it means end as finished, gone away,done. Have you checked out the Aramaic.

You'll see I'm not worried about my stance but the continuity of His word. I know His word does not contradict its self. So in instances like this I know Faith is not ended/closed with all results so the translation has to be wrong. I like when I'm proven wrong with scripture. It helps correct me to follow Him better.
 
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especially if you say it was the Ruach that gives Eternal life.

I suppose that would be a good discussion what does give eternal life?

Titus 3
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Eph 2
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The foundation is not Moses.

John 3
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

1 Cor 6
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


Galatians 5
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Hebrews 10
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Romans 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Yes! The death burial and resurrection and Glorification of Jesus made it possible to have eternal life. However, It is the Spirit that actually gives us the Life!

1 John 4
13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.


2 Cor. 3
1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
 
@Frank S @Cap and @Jim an Apostle , nobody here is questioning whether or not Yeshua is the Messiah or whether or not salvation is through Him. We all believe this.

The question is, now that we are saved, what do we do? Or, how do we act as a redeemed people?

We have come to a place that we believe an unchanging God has an everlasting standard of righteousness that is not arbitrary and is clearly defined.

Yeshua said, 'My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent Me.' John 7:16 This exactly connects with Deuteronomy 18:18-19 wherein God says, 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you (Moses) and I will put My words in his mouth and he shall speak to them all that I command him. It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which He shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.'

By these two we recognize that Yeshua can only speak what the Father says. He, like every prophet that came before Him and the apostles after Him, only ever pointed back to the Words God has previously spoken.

The words of the Father, over and over state clearly that they are forever. So much so, that Deuteronomy 13 even tells Israel to stone anyone, particularly a prophet, that speaks against God's commands or seeks to lead the people away from them.

Proverbs 4:2 says, "For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not My Torah."

Over and over God says that Torah brings blessings, is everlasting, gives liberty and is a way of life. Psalm 1 clearly connects Torah with blessings and righteousness. Psalm 19:7-14 is a glorious recounting and extolling of the Torah, not just the commandments but the ordinances and judgments. Psalm 119, one I thought dry and hard to read, came totally alive as this amazing glorious telling of the character and nature of God once I understood that obedience brings life and peace.

Consider: 119:1 How blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the Torah of YHVH.
119:44-45 So I will keep Your Torah continually, forever and ever. And, I walk at liberty because I seek Your precepts.
119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness and Your Torah is truth.
119:160 ...every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting.

Just those four verses, and Scripture has 100 more, clearly portray the Torah in a light significantly differently than the standard Church line. If your perspective is different, then you may want to re-evaluate it.

A final thought... Malachi 4:4-6 are the very last words in your old testament. They are significant. Read slowly...

'Remember the Torah of Moses, My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him for all Israel. Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.'

Ask yourself,
  • Has the great and terrible day of the Lord happened yet?
  • If so, when?
  • If not, how do I prepare?
  • What is the connection between Elijah (spirit) and Moses (Torah)?
  • Who is 'all Israel?' Are you grafted in?
  • Who are the fathers?
  • Who are the children?
  • What does it mean to 'Remember the Torah of Moses?'
  • Is Elijah supposed to help remember the Torah?
  • Does this include the statutes and ordinances?
  • What exactly are the ordinances?
  • Does your understanding of Paul take this into account?
  • Can Paul overwrite this direct word from the Lord?
Shabbat shalom!
 
The Father gave the promised of Salvation by way of prophecies in the Torah and the Prophets, The Messiah fulfills the prophecies in Torah and the Prophets, delivered That promise Salvation and redeemed us (purchased us) with His blood, We have faith that all will be completed when he returns (study the life of Yeshua, the Gospel of the Kingdom, the tabernacle and Hebrews to start to get the full picture). The Ruach Helps us walk Out Our Life under that promise of Salvation in many ways for example by giving us the strength to deny the flesh and guiding us in His Instructions and sharing that promise with those who have yet to receive it. On the Day of Judgement Yeshua Delivers Salvation to the faithful covered in the blood of the Passover lamb. We would Not have the Spirit If you weren't redeemed. Not your redeemed because you have The spirit.

Titus 3
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Context. of the part of the chapter you cherry picked from is about being ready and doing good deeds and why. We don't have eternal life until after the day of judgement and the Messiah, our Passover lamb, covers us from the punishment we deserve.

4 But when the kindness of God our Savior
and His love for mankind appeared—
5 not by deeds of righteousness
which we had done ourselves,
but because of His mercy—
He saved us through the mikveh of
rebirth
and renewing of the Ruach ha-Kodesh,
6 whom He abundantly poured out on us
through Messiah Yeshua our Savior,
7 so that being set right by His grace,
we might become heirs
with the confident hope of eternal life!


The foundation is not Moses.

Nobody is saying Moses is the foundation of salvation. You're trying to build a straw man argument. Google that so you can learn what it is. You also took scripture out of context once again....surprise, surprise, surprise. This is about the Grafting the Gentiles into the Israel. Not The Holy Spirit giving Salvation.

John 3
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
once again...cue the choir....Out of Context as proof that the Holy Spirit Gives Salvation.

Romans 10:9-10
9 For if you confess with your mouth
that Yeshua is Lord,
and believe in your heart
that God raised Him from the dead,
you will be saved.
10 For with the heart it is believed for righteousness,
and with the mouth it is confessed for salvation.

Cant be born again without the Salvation that comes from Yeshua. I teach at a Charismatic Church I know how scripture is warped into the worship of the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 6
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Context again. Does not say Salvation comes from the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 6
6 Since we are co-laboring, we also urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 For He says,

“At a favorable time I listened to you,
in a day of salvation I helped you.”

Behold, now is the favorable time. Behold, now is the day of salvation. 3 We give no cause for offense in anything, so that our ministry may not be blamed. 4 But as God’s servants, we are commending ourselves in every way—in great endurance, in afflictions, in hardships, in distresses, 5 in beatings, in imprisonments, in riots, in troubles, in sleeplessness, in hunger; 6 in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Ruach ha-Kodesh, in genuine love, 7 in truthful speech, in the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; 8 through honor and dishonor, through evil report and good report. We are regarded as deceivers and yet true; 9 as unknown and yet well-known; as dying, yet behold, we live; as disciplined yet not put to death; 10 as grieving yet always rejoicing; as poor yet enriching many; as having nothing yet possessing everything.

11 We have spoken openly to you, O Corinthians; our heart is open wide! 12 You are not restricted by us, yet you are restricted in your own feelings. 13 Now in return—I speak as to my children—open wide to us also.

Galatians 5
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Context show it does not say Salvation comes from the Ruach.

13 Brothers and sisters, you were called to freedom—only do not let your freedom become an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Torah can be summed up in a single saying: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not destroyed by one another.

16 But I say, walk by the Ruach, and you will not carry out the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Ruach, but the Ruach sets its desire against the flesh—for these are in opposition to one another, so that you cannot do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Ruach, you are not under law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are clear: sexual immorality, impurity, indecency, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hostility, strife, jealousy, rage, selfish ambition, dissension, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, just as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit God’s kingdom. 22 But the fruit of the Ruach is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control—against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Messiah have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Ruach, let us also walk by the Ruach. 26 Let us not become conceited—provoking one another, envying one another.

Hebrews 10
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Context by the Blood of Yeshua.

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have boldness to enter into the Holies by the blood of Yeshua. 20 He inaugurated a new and living way for us through the curtain—that is, His flesh. 21 We also have a Kohen Gadol over God’s household.

22 So let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and body washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the unwavering confession of hope, for He who promised is faithful.

24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good deeds.

25 And do not neglect our own meetings, as is the habit of some, but encourage one another—and all the more so as you see the Day approaching.

26 For if we keep on sinning willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only a terrifying expectation of judgment and a fury of fire about to devour the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the Torah of Moses dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severe do you think the punishment will be for the one who has trampled Ben-Elohim underfoot, and has regarded as unholy the blood of the covenant by which he was made holy, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the One who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,” and again, “Adonai will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Romans 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Your showing the change Spirit brings not that fact that it Gives Salvation but evidence of Salvation. Scripture is clear. You do realize what your saying and teaching right?

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Messiah Yeshua. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Messiah Yeshua has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what was impossible for the Torah—since it was weakened on account of the flesh—God has done. Sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as a sin offering, He condemned sin in the flesh— 4 so that the requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Ruach.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Ruach set their minds on the things of the Ruach. 6 For the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the Ruach is life and shalom. 7 For the mindset of the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not submit itself to the law of God—for it cannot. 8 So those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Ruach—if indeed the Ruach Elohim dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Ruach of Messiah, he does not belong to Him. 10 But if Messiah is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Ruach of the One who raised Yeshua from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised Messiah Yeshua from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Ruach who dwells in you.

12 So then, brothers and sisters, we do not owe anything to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Ruach you put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live. 14 For all who are led by the Ruach Elohim, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall again into fear; rather, you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Ruach Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. 17 And if children, also heirs—heirs of God and joint-heirs with Messiah—if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

1 John 4
13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Proof that we are in Him not Salvation comes from the Spirit

Context again. Also why did you stop at v.15? because at v.17 it shows your wrong? or Because that's all google brought up.
Herse all of 1 John 4 so anyone confused can see the context.

The day of Judgement is when where either given eternal Life or Cast into Sheol. we have the Promise of salvation Delivered by Yeshua, we have The Ruach strengthening us against the flesh and guiding us in our walk. When Judgement happens it is Yeshua, the one who was the sacrifice, He who will is my intercessor, my Judge, my Passover lamb that will give me eternal life or send me to Sheol.
1 John 4

4 Loved ones, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 You know the Ruach Elohim by this—every spirit that acknowledges that Messiah Yeshua has come in human flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Yeshua is not from God. This is the spirit of the anti-messiah, which you have heard is coming and now is already in the world. 4 You are from God, children, and you have overcome them, because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world, so they speak from the world and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God; whoever knows God listens to us, but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

7 Loved ones, let us love one another, for love is from God. Everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 The love of God was revealed among us by this—that God sent His one and only Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 This is love—not that we have loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atonement for our sins.

11 Loved ones, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God. If we love one another, God abides in us and His love is made perfect in us. 13 We know that we abide in Him and He in us by this—because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son as Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Yeshua is Ben-Elohim, God abides in him and he abides in God. 16 So we have come to know and trust in the love that God has for us. God is love. Now whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

17 In this way, love is made perfect among us, so that we should have boldness on the Day of Judgment. For just as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and the one who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us.

20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that the one who loves God should also love his brother.

The Father, Son, and Ruach are always in agreement. They testify of each other.

Scripture shows Its Yeshua that gives Salvation. You deny this. You say its the spirit that does. Your lead by the Spirit. That spirit is not in agreeance with The Father and Son so that Spirit that told you it gives eternal life is not the Ruach HaKodesh. By denying that Yeshua gives you salvation you are denning Yeshua. You are teaching that Yeshua does not give eternal life but the Spirit you worship does.
 
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Scripture shows Its Yeshua that gives Salvation. You deny this. You say its the spirit that does. Your lead by the Spirit. That spirit is not in agreeance with The Father and Son so that Spirit that told you it gives eternal life is not the Ruach HaKodesh. By denying that Yeshua gives you salvation you are denning Yeshua. You are teaching that Yeshua does not give eternal life but the Spirit you worship does.

I believe you are rather twisting things around Kevin.
I believe Jim is saying it is thru the Holy Spirit we are saved. That is how the Father communicates with His people. Jesus was clear he would send His Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all Truth. It is the Holy Spirit that prepares the heart for it to be renewed.
Guys:oops::oops::oops:Quit telling each other based on what you are misunderstanding on this forum that someone is saved or isn't. In the end your vote won't matter on that issue.
 
I believe you are rather twisting things around Kevin.
I believe Jim is saying it is thru the Holy Spirit we are saved. That is how the Father communicates with His people. Jesus was clear he would send His Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all Truth. It is the Holy Spirit that prepares the heart for it to be renewed.
Guys:oops::oops::oops:Quit telling each other based on what you are misunderstanding on this forum that someone is saved or isn't. In the end your vote won't matter on that issue.
I don't dispute we need the Ruach. It is our guide. Its the Role a Husband is suppose to be in His wife's life. I will point out if one says its through the Holy Spirit we are saved then they make Yeshua's sacrifice for nothing. He didn't have to Die. God could of just given us the Holy Spirit to dwell in us. The Holy Spirit is the Same Holy Spirit working in the Old Testament. It didn't deliver salvation then it was a guide to the Prophets, Patriarchs, Kings, Enoch, Daniel, Job all those who where trying to listen to God. It was a guide to Those who had a heart for Him and wanted that relationship. Because of that relationship He sent His Spirit to guide them.

Ezekiel 36:26-27

26 Moreover I will give you a new heart. I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the stony heart from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Ruach within you. Then I will cause you to walk in My statutes, so you will keep My rulings and do them.
 
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Ask yourself,
  • Has the great and terrible day of the Lord happened yet?
  • If so, when?
  • If not, how do I prepare?
  • What is the connection between Elijah (spirit) and Moses (Torah)?
  • Who is 'all Israel?' Are you grafted in?
  • Who are the fathers?
  • Who are the children?
  • What does it mean to 'Remember the Torah of Moses?'
  • Is Elijah supposed to help remember the Torah?
  • Does this include the statutes and ordinances?
  • What exactly are the ordinances?
  • Does your understanding of Paul take this into account?
  • Can Paul overwrite this direct word from the Lord?

There would be no answer that would satisfy your interpretation. Your reality is created by your belief. And I don't have a problem with that, mine is created by mine. If God has commanded you to not eat pork, or observe a day, or whatever, then do it. But, if God could also tell another person to paint all the mailboxes in their neighborhood blue, then that's a current law (command) to them, and it is just as valid.

You may think the mailbox thing is stupid, but consider lying on your side naked for a bunch of days, or eating dung. If God is God then He can direct His children to anything He wants, the question is, well that child listen. The whole point in all this to me is, do you follow the old law to show to God you love Him or do you follow the new law, that includes the old law, to show him you love Him. If the new law for you is to follow the old law, then do it, but that doesn't remove the possibility that some may experience commands for today that may not fit into the old law understanding.

Here is the thing, suppose there is a person in your neighborhood who is at the end, they can go no more, they pray their last prayer and say, "God, if my mailbox turns blue I will believe in you". Along, you come knock on the door and say, I have no idea why I am suppose to do this but the God I serve has told me to go and paint all the mailboxes in my neighborhood blue, can I do this for you. What do you think that person who was crying to God will do? I doubt very seriously if that same person walked up to that person, knocked on the door and said, Follow Torah and you will be saved because that's what God wants you to do, I don't think you would get the same response.

Maybe following Torah (or maybe even Jews) is for believers to find their way sometimes, ,maybe following God's Spirit is a way to help unbelievers find their way?

If God tells me to go paint mailboxes and I tell you that is what He told me to do, then you say, well God be with you and His will be done. If you say, God told me to honor the weekly Sabbath, I say, well God be with you and His will be done. If I say, God has told me to tell YOU to paint mailboxes, or you say, God has told you to tell ME to not eat shrimp, then that is where the problem lies I believe. The wrong is in the telling others to follow their interpretation.
 
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