All History Before 1600's is "Questionable"

[raulus]

In Noah's day the waters above the firmament were let loose on his world. This is seen in the windows of heaven opening up. Windows are only placed in structures, mind you.

“In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭7‬:‭11‬

With the last point I'd also like to add, that due to the waters falling down as they did, the firmament is likely not too high up from the earth. Not lightyears away.

After the flood, the waters 'returned' continually

“and the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭8‬:‭3

The water is still above us today. Above the heavens or the firmament.

“Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, And ye waters that be above the heavens.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭148‬:‭4‬

God is known to be above the firmament, above the waters, in the highest heaven.

“Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace, good will toward men.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬

“The LORD sitteth upon the flood; Yea, the LORD sitteth King for ever.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭29‬:‭10‬

“The voice of the LORD is upon the waters: The God of glory thundereth: The LORD is upon many waters.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭29‬:‭3‬

Here are some other verses showing the firmament, hence always implying a hardness or solidity above us.

“Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?”
‭‭Job‬ ‭37‬:‭18‬

This tent imagery shows the dome-like shape of the firmament.

“It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭40‬:‭22‬

Calling the heavens like a scroll or curtain makes no sense with the secular view, but completely lines up with the idea of a firmament.

“And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6‬:‭14‬

“Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: Who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭104‬:‭2‬

Remember one of the definitions of raqiya in Hebrew is to beat out a dish or plate, like an artisan craft or handiwork almost.

“The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament sheweth his handywork.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭19‬:‭1‬

Ezekiel 1 also has much talk of the firmament too.

“And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings. And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭1‬:‭25‬-‭28‬

 

[raulus]

I can go into many other points, and prove from scripture that the world isn't what they say it is but what God says it is. I usually start with showing people the firmament because it is so easy to show. We all essentially live in a dome submerged in water. Probably why the sky is blue. No one can leave it, except for God and His elect.

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭13‬

Think of a miniature diorama, or a terrarium. We are the little creatures, or grasshoppers as the scriptures put it, placed in a dome with an inhabitable earth and everything to our liking, to dominate. There are no other worlds out there. You'll never find this idea anywhere in scripture. We are on the inside of a firmament, and beyond this world there's absolutely no aliens, but only spiritual beings, heavenly creatures, God Himself, etc. Which is why when satan was cast out, he came straight 'down' to us. There wasn't any other place for him to go, but down to us.

“Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12‬:‭12

That is the plain reading of genesis and how the majority of ancient people knew the world, minus the notable greek and romans. It is very consistent throughout the whole bible. Look at other creation stories or myths and you'll see this same pattern, a big body of water, and the gods placed a dome inside of it. And from within that dome, our earth is formed. Which is typically also considered a flat earth, geocentric model, but for the sake of this conversation--forget that I said that. You can believe in a firmament around a ball, but it just wouldn't make as much sense.

If you'd rather stop this discussion, feel free.

But I'm sure from what I've provided you can see why I say the earth's shape is least important. Really, because it is. Don't get stuck on a flat earth conversation it's just simply too triggering for most and distracts from the bigger picture.

Many other answers can be attained by correctly understanding the cosmology provided by the Bible.

 

[FollowingHim]

In your understanding @b_ce, how far away is the firmament?

 

[raulus]

In your understanding @b_ce, how far away is the firmament?

No clue. But as I said with the windows of heaven opened up, and water falling down on Noah's world, likely not extremely high. Also how satan came straight down to us when cast out, as if there was nowhere else to go. Look at my last post for the verse.

I don't believe that Jesus ascended to His father in lightyears or anything, or that He slipped through a science fiction portal. Only that He ascended straight up to Him. In order for Christ to reach His Father from the earth, He has to pass both the firmament and the water. I assume the waters probably divided like they did for Moses, and it is possible hat He could of ascended at great speeds. I don't know how high up it is, only that there is eventually a barrier or limit.

There's space in my view for satellites. But from here on, we're just talking assumptions. I like to keep it biblical as possible, and will always be upfront when I'm unsure and asked to tackle assumption.

 

[Mark C]

Others here are essentially on the page that I am with respect to "flat earth," amillenialism," preterism, or whatever other -isms are at play here.

As a pilot, and radio amateur, I've seen enough evidence first hand to at least "tend to reject" the 'flat earth," claim. Flown great circle routes, used VHF radios line-of-sight from mountains and towers and planes, and tracked satellites. But, I've never personally been to the quadruple flight levels, or flown a circumnavigation. So, no comment there.

But as far as the "it was all Fulfilled in 70 AD," or He already came and we didn't notice, or "all is fulfilled" and Damascus is still a city, and all of the rest of that prophecy that seems, well, UN-fulfilled, just really is somehow anyway:

If that's the best He can do, and He can't really preserve and fulfill a bit better than "we missed it," then that's just plain pitiful.

I've seen enough miracles PERSONALLY, and including in His Written Word, to never sell Him so short!

Oh, and PS> I can't help but think, based on EVIDENCE I see unfolding NOW, that some folks are gonna be REALLLLLYYYY surprised when that UN-fulfilled prophecy really come about.

 

[steve]

However, if anyone thinks the second coming of Christ has already happened, and the dead have already been raised - then what are we bothering with Christianity for? What we hope for has been and gone, and the result is pretty crap to be honest, nowhere near as good as advertised.

Exactly
How pathetic can life get if we have reached the epitome of His plans?

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

I can go into many other points, and prove from scripture that the world isn't what they say it is but what God says it is. I usually start with showing people the firmament because it is so easy to show. We all essentially live in a dome submerged in water. Probably why the sky is blue. No one can leave it, except for God and His elect.

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭13‬

Think of a miniature diorama, or a terrarium. We are the little creatures, or grasshoppers as the scriptures put it, placed in a dome with an inhabitable earth and everything to our liking, to dominate. There are no other worlds out there. You'll never find this idea anywhere in scripture. We are on the inside of a firmament, and beyond this world there's absolutely no aliens, but only spiritual beings, heavenly creatures, God Himself, etc. Which is why when satan was cast out, he came straight 'down' to us. There wasn't any other place for him to go, but down to us.

“Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12‬:‭12

That is the plain reading of genesis and how the majority of ancient people knew the world, minus the notable greek and romans. It is very consistent throughout the whole bible. Look at other creation stories or myths and you'll see this same pattern, a big body of water, and the gods placed a dome inside of it. And from within that dome, our earth is formed. Which is typically also considered a flat earth, geocentric model, but for the sake of this conversation--forget that I said that. You can believe in a firmament around a ball, but it just wouldn't make as much sense.

If you'd rather stop this discussion, feel free.

But I'm sure from what I've provided you can see why I say the earth's shape is least important. Really, because it is. Don't get stuck on a flat earth conversation it's just simply too triggering for most and distracts from the bigger picture.

Many other answers can be attained by correctly understanding the cosmology provided by the Bible.

None of the passages listed restrict the earth to being flat or square or any other shape for that matter. A globe would also be just fine with those passages. Since the shape of the earth doesn’t matter, as you said, why wouldn’t we go with the model that is compatible with Scripture and most closely matches what we observe around us? The problem that I have seen is that nobody who claims what you are claiming can demonstrate a model that explains why the observable things around us appear the way they do.

 

[Joleneakamama]

However, if anyone thinks the second coming of Christ has already happened, and the dead have already been raised - then what are we bothering with Christianity for? What we hope for has been and gone, and the result is pretty crap to be honest, nowhere near as good as advertised. May as well go and be a pagan, it looks like fun.

And that is the biggest danger in believing a doctrine that is false, many when faced with that situation that causes them to reevaluate a particular belief end up throwing the baby out with the bath water!
I'm not saying this is you doing that Samuel, but I remember hearing that the false pre tribulation rapture doctrine caused many believers in China to abandon faith when persecution did come.

It can be difficult to separate the false from the true, and questioning some things you believed... and finding them false!.... can be disturbing.

The problem with it all is that it’s like climbing a mountain, conspiracy mountain. Horrific and disturbing and fascinating all at the same time. But when you get to the top you find friends but no one is excited because there is no where to go from there and nothing changes. And no one who gets to the top of conspiracy mountain can ever leave. You can’t go back into naivety. You cant go home again. For those who have salvation, it’s better because there is hope for those who believe.

It is hard I think for believers who have the love of Christ to even comprehend the evil unregenerated hearts that actively seek to harm and destroy others. Jesus called some vipers...some sheep. Sheep cannot personally comprehend the heart of a hunter....a wolf or a snake. The difference is the enemies of Christ can comprehend the innocent and trusting nature of sheep....and use it against them.
He said "the children of the world are wiser then the children of the kingdom"....but I think that is just wiser to do evil. Those with wisdom actually follow Him.

Yes, it's a bit like leaving toyland to realize the evil that is some human hearts....but realizing He knew the end from the beginning and has accomplished the salvation of man....that is where hope lies. ...in His sovereign sufficiency.

Flat earth? It's a good example of people choosing their gurus. Not many of us can actually prove it, so we choose who we believe. For me, the jury is out, and maybe at some point there will be sufficient evidence (not rejected by me by prejudice) to make the truth clear.
If I lean, it is to believing we have been lied to by authorities....because I know they cannot be trusted. Then too, I think a dome over flat earth is much harder to explain with evolution, and makes God feel closer.
I also have felt earthquakes, but find it difficult to believe that we are moving all the time as a norm.

*shrugs* someday we can ask.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

I also have felt earthquakes, but find it difficult to believe that we are moving all the time as a norm.

If I close my eyes on a brand new highway, on a straightaway, in a car with good suspension, going 80mph I can’t tell that I’m moving either.

 

[NVIII]

If I close my eyes on a brand new highway, on a straightaway, in a car with good suspension, going 80mph I can’t tell that I’m moving either.

 

[raulus]

None of the passages listed restrict the earth to being flat or square or any other shape for that matter. A globe would also be just fine with those passages. Since the shape of the earth doesn’t matter, as you said, why wouldn’t we go with the model that is compatible with Scripture and most closely matches what we observe around us? The problem that I have seen is that nobody who claims what you are claiming can demonstrate a model that explains why the observable things around us appear the way they do.

That's the thing man, I've only touched a single point in talking about the firmament. There are many more goalposts to hit. The firmament to be clear, is at complete odds with those who tell us the facts about the earth. It is contrary to everything they say. How much more could simply be wrong if we compare their words with scripture?

My point is, were you even aware of the biblical firmament before I laid it out? Why feel so strongly about the shape of the earth if you weren't aware that there may be a dome over it with water above? You're thinking too narrow on that one thing. The shape of the earth is irrelevant in comparison. There are just way bigger fish to fry. The earth's shape is dead last, pulling up into the drive way. It makes no difference.

For me the Word of God is truth, no matter what. No matter how many naysayers there are. The whole world can believe opposite for all I care. If it says there's a firmament, then I know there is one.

I'll lay out more points probably after work tonight if this thread isn't locked by then. And if it is locked, feel free to reach out to me.

 

[Mark C]

"I once had a neighbor who told me the wildest stories…he was a real nutter. The one that made me throw up my hands and say enough! was when he was trying to convince me that the US government was controlling the...

...[fill-in-the-blank].":

Actually, with all due respect, I have MORE respect for such a "nutter" than I do the gullible who drink the Bud Lite and took the Zyklon-B Poison Poke. There's a place for skepticism.

 

[Mark C]

It is hard I think for believers who have the love of Christ to even comprehend the evil unregenerated hearts that actively seek to harm and destroy others.

Especially when they run 'the world,' the Waste-Stream Media, pull the puppet strings, rig elections, and are engineering the biggest mass destruction in human history.

But, I continue to suggest, that's why Jeremiah 16:19 is SOOO vital to understand. THAT is being "fulfilled within our sight.," today.

 

[Mr.S]

...[fill-in-the-blank].":

Actually, with all due respect, I have MORE respect for such a "nutter" than I do the gullible who drink the Bud Lite and took the Zyklon-B Poison Poke. There's a place for skepticism.

Absolutely. I fully agree which is why I was saying that, now I’m the tinfoil hat conspirator. I’ve always enjoyed hearing about new ideas and peoples opinions. I don’t dismiss things just because there strange or even if they’re wrong. I always like to consider the source of the concepts and how they developed and why the person latched on to their ideas in the first place. Calling someone a nutter or a bigot or anti vaxx or tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist is all just endearing terms that normies would refer myself as. I’m not offended and I’ve found that others who have gone down the rabbit hole are not offended by those titles either. It just differentiates us from them kinda like a graduation certificate

 

[Mr.S]

Especially when they run 'the world,' the Waste-Stream Media, pull the puppet strings, rig elections, and are engineering the biggest mass destruction in human history.

But, I continue to suggest, that's why Jeremiah 16:19 is SOOO vital to understand. THAT is being "fulfilled within our sight.," today.

Hey now, it’s not easy reducing over 3/4 of the world population and cramming the rest of them into tiny prison cities while trying to achieve immortality.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

My point is, were you even aware of the biblical firmament before I laid it out?

Yeah I’ve known about the firmament for about 35years now so yes I’m pretty familiar with the concept. It’s not what you think it is.

 

[Mr.S]

Absolutely. I fully agree which is why I was saying that, now I’m the tinfoil hat conspirator. I’ve always enjoyed hearing about new ideas and peoples opinions. I don’t dismiss things just because there strange or even if they’re wrong. I always like to consider the source of the concepts and how they developed and why the person latched on to their ideas in the first place. Calling someone a nutter or a bigot or anti vaxx or tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist is all just endearing terms that normies would refer myself as. I’m not offended and I’ve found that others who have gone down the rabbit hole are not offended by those titles either. It just differentiates us from them kinda like a graduation certificate

…or I should say that the things a person espouses to believe are like markers for where they are at in this crazy drama called life…not so much certificates.

 

[FollowingHim]

Not many of us can actually prove it, so we choose who we believe.
...
If I lean, it is to believing we have been lied to by authorities.

As I've said before, the idea you need fancy scientific instruments and satellites etc to prove the earth is round is a serious misunderstanding. People proved this over 2000 years ago with the simplest of tools. And you too can test and determine whether the earth is flat or round. It's not rocket science. Don't just "choose who you believe", use your own eyes and then believe yourself.

If you're actually interested in understanding how to test this yourself, let me know. But as I said before, if you didn't use reason to get into it....

 

[FollowingHim]

I remember hearing that the false pre tribulation rapture doctrine caused many believers in China to abandon faith when persecution did come.

I don't know if it's happened yet, but that is my major objection to the pre-trib rapture doctrine. Even if it turns out to be true, it's the wrong thing to believe, because it means people are unprepared for major suffering. Best to believe we'll have to go through everything and prepare for the worst. If you're wrong and actually get whisked away earlier, that will be a pleasant surprise.

 

[Michael Moon]

Honestly, I wish the earth were flat or a dome (or just something that science can't explain). I have a natural distaste for science and other "advancements" propped up by the pagan world.

That said, I just don't understand how it works. How are all of our horribly corrupt and inefficient governments working together to keep this from people? Every single person who has flown all the way around or sailed is lying? or somehow drugged and hypnotized? And WHY? Why try to lie to people about THIS of all things?