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Gay choir sings "We're coming for your children"

Just a short bit of opinion. I believe that those that do not have procreative sexual orientation might have been born that way, and it certainly may be genetic, but I do not believe it is normal. Every experience we have makes little changes in our dna. This is why identicle twins don't maintain identicle dna. YHWH says He visits the sins of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation. This is why it is wise to be up front with your children about your weaknesses/sins (age appropriate of course) as well as those known to you of your fathers/mothers.
Compassion for those in the world with different weaknesses is good, but accepting as normal a weakness inherited through generational sinning is not good.

The death penalty was usually called for with sexual sins because that intense gratification connected to sinful acts makes it almost impossible to stop. That passage quoted above about people in the assembly in times past having been guilty of those kind of sins affirms that the shed blood of Yeshua covers MORE then the blood of animals. Praise Him!! Thank the Father for that awesome revelation!

That's really all I wanted to say.....for whatever it's worth.
 
What do you mean by the bolded words? Do you consider this to be a correct interpretation, or not?

[Caution: what follows will test attention spans and will include stories from me, so read at your own risk.]

Before I answer your question, please hear this: I agree with most of what @The Revolting Man wrote above, although some (and not by any means the more important) of those dynamics are correlated with the way in which gay men are treated by our cultures. However, as @Joleneakamama noted, whether it's genetic or not, being gay is simply not normal, and it's 100% clear to me that being a gay man doesn't come anywhere close to be preferable to being a straight man; I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and -- even back when I was setting up and being an advisor to gay support groups on university campuses -- I have consistently challenged any gay person who expressed a desire to persuade someone else to be gay (this hasn't produced pleasantness between me and Kristin's gay uncle, despite my having been the first person in her family to encourage the rest of them to accept his sexual orientation) or who expressed hope that an either adopted or biological child of theirs would turn out to be gay. It's like wishing hemophilia on someone; it's still a gift from God to be alive and have hemophilia, but it would be far preferable to be hemophilia-free, and that goes for being straight over being gay -- no matter whether the down sides are intrinsic or extrinsic.

But I do have my doubts about the translations of Leviticus 20:13. In fact, I've given serious thought to writing an entire book on just that one passage. Some years back I did a significant amount of research into it, research that was prompted by my curiosity about just what was it exactly that was meant by the phrase we commonly read in that verse, "as with a woman;" i.e., is it referring to penile penetration?, because, while we all assume it means penis/anus sex, that's not exactly what one would consider "as with a woman," is it? -- and this is like the third rail of all third rails of sex, religion and politics, so I didn't want to assume that this was just a situation in which an idiomatic expression had somehow miraculously gone unchanged for 3000 years. Included in my research was:
  1. 30+ English-language translations of Scripture
  2. Two different online Bible sites that each provide any individual verse of Scripture translated into a variety of versions and languages, including Hebrew
  3. Online research for the best available original Hebrew translations
  4. A Greek-English translation tool
  5. Two different online translation tools that allowed for both translating from Hebrew to English and from English to Hebrew
  6. Research into the Septuagint
  7. Strong's
  8. Adams's
  9. Secular writings about the passage, both in print and online
  10. Rabbinical writings about the passage, both in print and online
  11. Christian theological writings about the passage, both in print and online
I discovered a number of things that only made me more curious and actually even more curious about interpretations beyond my original inquiry, mainly because my original research began with taking the passage completely at face value:
  • Tremendous variations of opinions among theologians about what the precise meaning of the passage is, which was, to be honest, shocking to me when I first encountered it, because every single English translation, the Septuagint and the Vulgate all present the same basic premise; why, I thought, would anyone be doubting this if every Bible translator has been in agreement about it? (There is an answer to this question; more on that below.) If we all know exactly what Yah meant to say in 20:13, then why would so many religious authorities, experts, etc. -- to an even more significant degree than the secular commentators -- be so willing to question the standard translation's validity?
  • Two strange things occurs when one explores this at biblehub.com:
    • The opportunity is there to translate this phrase from the Hebrew to English either as a whole or word by word. I did this with other verses to see if I could get the same result, but in every other case the whole-sentence translation was either identical to or nearly-identical to the word-by-word translation. Not so with Lev. 20:13. For one thing, there simply is nothing there in the individual Hebrew characters to produce the phrase, "as with a woman;" most specifically, if I remember correctly (my notes from this research are still buried in my unpacked boxes in the garage, and my badly-sprained ankle thankfully prevents me from feeling compelled to go hunt for them; I'm pulling all this up out of my memory), at the very least, the "as" is not represented by the actual characters and was therefore added in at some point in the translation-of-translation-of-translation process since the original manuscripts were produced by the great Moses.
    • In combination with utilizing the online non-biblical Hebrew-to-English and English-to-Hebrew, getting an identical-result 2-step translation from English-to-Hebrew-to-English or Hebrew-to-English of Lev. 20:13 is impossible. With one secular translation tool, no matter which exact wording I fed it from any of the 30+ English-language versions of 20:13, I could not produce a Hebrew result that matches what the Hebrew version of 20:13 contains; those results came back pretty close to the originals once going back from Hebrew to English. But the other tool did something different: some English word-strings entered in did match the precise Hebrew contained in our modern Hebrew versions of Scripture, but when translated back into English, the resultant English word strings were reasonably interpreted as gobbledygook. Word salad. Curious and curiouser.
  • Pre-existing this research for me are decades of personal Bible research that goes back in time all the way through being sent as a teenager by my church to compete in Bible knowledge contests around the state of Texas and further on back to, as I've mentioned elsewhere, completing my first full reading of Scripture at age 5. Even prior to the 25-year-desert-period I entered into in my 20's during which I turned my back on Yah and Yeshua, and one significant piece of what inspired that fallow period, I had already begun focusing on the fact that most major Bible translation projects included as part of their mandate purposeful mistranslation intentions for the purpose of advancing non-scriptural agendas. [I should note that I only consider the original manuscripts of Scripture to be divinely-inspired; I believe every translation introduced corruption that causes us to question our necessarily-muddied interpretations. To me, to consider translations as divinely-inspired is to elevate men to the status of Yah, which I will not do -- translators are no more to be revered than are popes, the early church fathers or Jordan Peterson.] What I discovered during this recent research a couple years ago was that perhaps the first glaring example of this purposeful mistranslation was the Septuagint project of the 3rd Century BC; at the very least, the effort of those 70 was at least partially intended to placate the dominant Greek culture in which they then existed, and the resultant work clearly reflects an at-that-time-new, enhanced anti-sexuality bias for the Hebrew scriptures that was (coincidentally? -- probably about as coincidental as the Mormon prophet having a vision that plural marriage should end when the U.S. demanded that Utah Territory criminalize polygamy as a condition for statehood) more in line with Greek/pagan philosophy (actually, appeasement of pagan culture has been behind most of the large-scale purposeful-mistranslation projects, the most notable example being the Latin Vulgate). I suspect that the production of the Septuagint may have been one of the first purposeful nails in the coffin in regard to delegitimizing polygyny, but that's only a hunch. Where my research ended (which was partly due to having too much else on my plate at the time and partly due to being so eager to share with friends @Clyde and @ostephenu what I'd discovered thus far during a weekend trip we took together to Baltimore or DC) was knowing that the next step was to thoroughly study how, when, why, etc., the Septuagint was commissioned and then research backward on a path that might require me to at least partially learn how to read Hebrew myself -- but I've never gotten back around to it. Someday I will, because . . .
  • What I found was that a surprising number of past and present rabbinical scholars have posited what, after reading their conclusions and doing my own word-by-word translation work at Bible Hub and another online site, I am very tentatively and only somewhat leaning toward also believing: that the actual translation of Leviticus 20:13 is closer to being something along the lines of a prohibition against women having more than one husband -- more specifically a prohibition against a husband sharing his marriage bed with a wife and another man.
(continued in part two)
 
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(part two)

Some of this has to do with some scholarship about the general patterns of how Moses presented the dictates he brought from Elohim to the wandering Israelites, patterns that reflect the fact that Moses very likely first presented these dictates orally and then retired to his tent to journalize them in writing, not considering it essential to record every bit of the dialogue of his initial oral communications: his written priorities were the Voice of Yah and certain essential clarifications. The general pattern, by the way, is: (a) Major Rule Heading, followed by (b) clarifications, followed by (c) exceptions and exclusions. I have found that this rabbinical assertion can be followed throughout most all of Leviticus, as well as elsewhere. The Major Rule Heading begins in Leviticus 18 (no sex with near kin), and Leviticus 20:13 is located just before another Major Rule Heading begins. Just imagine the conversations that were had when Moses was detailing just what kind of sexual relationships one could and couldn't engage in. We here at this site all know that Leviticus 18 presents some of the most clear inferential indications that polygyny has to have been blessed, because Yah (through Moses) was mentioning exceptions (definitely not a mother and her daughter at the same time, for example, or sisters if the purpose is to vex them). It's not hard to imagine some man (perhaps at the urging of one of his women, wife or daughter) piping up with, "Hey, Moses, what about women having more than one husband? I can't imagine who would do such a thing, but if a woman could convince two men to share her, what does Elohim say about that?"

To which the response would be, "No two men shall share a bed with a woman; to do so is abhorrent to Elohim and would be punishable by a heinous death that would cause all the violators to lose their blood (e.g., stoning)," which would have been clear enough to end such a discussion.

So, no, I'm not entirely convinced that Scripture contains an ironclad prohibition against all male homosexual behavior. In fact, I believe that @The Revolting Man presents the best admonition against it I've ever read, and it echoes other thoughts about it I've read and heard from others in the past: two men being together simply doesn't represent the best emulation of the model Yah presents to us as ideal: For each man, one Lord God; for each woman, one lord man (two gay men create a confusion of male headship, but, on the other hand, it also becomes a less-crucial issue, given that they aren't going to have any progeny over which they will need to demonstrate male leadership). However, I don't believe evidence exists that Scripture asserts that everyone has to exemplify or even fully strive for the Ideal in order to be good with God. Not everyone marries. Not everyone who doesn't marry dedicates their lives to service to Yah, and yet many of them are devoted members of the faith Body of Christ. Not everyone who marries has children. Clearly, those people aren't following the be-fruitful-and-multiply commandment, but does that prevent them from salvation or the Kingdom of God?

What I do know is that, at the time the Septuagint was written (which, by the way, was more than 2 centuries prior to Paul and certainly, given his status as a Greek scholar and Pharisee, would have significantly informed his own scriptural scholarship), the Greek culture simultaneously abhorred sex between two adult men yet celebrated sex between men and boys; in fact, the legacy of this has not entirely disappeared, and that dichotomous rejection/acceptance is unofficially alive and well in not only modern-day Greece but in large segments of its near neighbors, especially in certain geographic regions of Italy. I don't know what I'll ultimately discover, but it certainly wouldn't at all surprise me if I could either learn or feel fairly confident inferring that one of the behind-the-scenes agendas of the Septuagint was to specifically pander to the Greeks by replacing a phrase that would indirectly bolster the polygamy the Greeks were already on the march to exterminate with one that prohibited adult male-male anal intercourse while failing to demonize the predominantly oral sex that the Greeks were engaging in between men and boys.

Clearly, within and without Scripture, gay male sex is a tremendous social taboo -- and the blatant promotion of homosexuality in our postmodern mainstream culture hasn't really made a dent in that. It is in the face of that failure to get the middle ground of humanity to celebrate them that the gay activists rail, flailing with impotence against a wall of general revulsion toward what they practice. I don't doubt the existence of the taboo, but, yes, I do question that Scripture is as blatantly clear as so many are convinced it is. Something other than Scripture has to be responsible for the intensity with which human beings in our cultures react toward homosexuality. What is addressed in only a relative handful of scriptural passages has, for many generations, dominated the corporate church community. The Word of God is tremendously more focused on valuing life, and yet our churches have put even greater effort into combatting homosexuality than they have abortion. We're titillated by news related to transgenderism, but we still get way more exorcised about homosexuality; people are monkeying with the DNA codes established by our Creator in attempts to change gender or to clone chimeric creatures, which should enrage us, but instead we're fixated on where men are putting their pee-pees. I'm not saying homosexuality is the most or even a righteous way to glorify Yah, but certainly it pales in comparison to attempting to alter humanity by subverting genetic coding.

No, @FollowingHim, I'm not sure that the translation of Lev. 20:13 is correct . . . and I'm not sure it's incorrect, either. What I am convinced of is that, in general, as human beings, we let our uncomfortableness with certain things (an emotional reaction) far too greatly inform our interpretations, and the general derision directed toward male homosexuality is a perfect example. We have let it distract us, and I further believe that the ruling classes (which, in my humble opinion include the majority of the leaders within organized religion) have very purposefully used it as a deflection. As all of fundamentalist Christianity and the majority of mainstream Christianity were wasting years organizing against giving the privilege of begging at the trough of the State for licensing of their relationships to homosexuals (as if it were somehow devolution for gays to be committed to each other rather than just engage in uncommitted, casual sexual relationships -- does that sound at all familiar to this audience?), our general rights and freedoms were systematically being stripped from the rest of us, our children were being indoctrinated to become woke snowflake cogs in a totalitarian state, and the strength of family structures was being purposefully degraded. But, hey, we kept those durn gays from having marriage ceremonies for a dozen or so years, right? Of all people, those of us in this organization should have been paying attention to the general hysterical warnings that were being broadcast from pulpits all across America about the impending disintegration of the culture if we didn't stop gays from licensing their unions: the most common one was that, if we let that happen, it would only be a matter of time until . . .

. . . polygamy would be legalized.

We have spent the last year watching our betters demonstrate that they've already prepared the populace to bend over, grab its collective ankles and say, "Just let me know when you're done," (I use this imagery very much on purpose) -- with every excuse pulled out to justify creating the next thing to martial law -- over what amounts to a minor seasonal flu, and we remain distracted by the same bogeymen. The April/May issue of Imprimus features an adaptation of a speech Mark Steyn delivered to a Hillsdale College seminar in April, and he illustrates the folly of falling prey to such distractions:

"It is not at all clear to me that many of America's conservative politicians understand the seriousness of all this. You can see it in the fact that they go around trying to scare people with the specter of a 'radical socialist agenda.' For well over a year now, we have been living in a world in which it's accepted as normal the the state has essentially unlimited power -- and in which our freedom to decide for ourselves has been diminished almost to invisibility. Why do these conservative politicians think the words 'radical socialist agenda' still scare anyone in a time when the state can tell us whether we can have Aunt Mabel over for Christmas? They are completely out of touch. Over the same period as the pandemic lockdowns, we have seen an escalation of so-called wokeness. And if you look at one of the most startling manifestations of this, transgender fanaticism -- which involves, after all, the abolition of biological sex and, I'm sorry to have to say it, the physical mutilation of children -- one notices that America is farther down this road than any other country in the Western world. In other words, at this moment of crisis for Western Civilization, or for what we used to call Christendom, the leading country of the free world is pulling the wrong way."
Steyn goes on to mention the near-complete transformation of our public school systems into indoctrination camps; successes (including the neutering of our southern border) racked up by one-world-government forces, almost without any attention being paid to them; and the degree to which China, Big Tech, Big Sports and Big Entertainment are in collusion to eliminate civil liberties on the way toward world domination. These are all real threats. We don't have to wonder if they're coming for our children. They already have their hooks in them.

But, with insufficient evidence, we're beating the drum of Heinous Homo Hegemony, convincing ourselves that hordes of homos equipped with special powers Black Widow would be envious of are just over the horizon, waiting to turn all of (especially) our (male) children into fellow bone smugglers.

I say wake up. The annoying members of the Queer Choir are only one sliver of the gay male population in our cultures. Within the camp of actual freedom fighters who predominantly agree with most of us here politically, cultural and even theologically exist many homosexual men, some who privately act on their sensual desires and some who choose not to. Those people are not coming for your children; they're working to keep them free from tyranny after you're gone. Instead of demonizing such men, we should be embracing them -- in a figurative sense, of course.
 
You make some very sound arguments about what we should be focussed on @Keith Martin.

Your scriptural points are fascinating, I'm not conceding they're correct but they give plenty to ponder. As part of that pondering:

Augustine held (for a number of reasons) that the LXX translators were divinely inspired and acting in the capacity of prophets, so there was value in the text of both the LXX and the Hebrew even when the two differed. In cases where the Hebrew is unclear, the LXX clarifies the meaning. So if Leviticus 20:13 is unclear in the Hebrew, but in the LXX clearly condemns male homosexuality, this would mean that the correct meaning is that male homosexuality is condemned.

I would be very hesitant to approve something that is clearly condemned in the LXX just because the Hebrew is uncertain. Particularly because Hebrew is such an ancient language and was originally written without vowels, it could well be that the original was not uncertain and the uncertainty has been introduced simply because today we fail to understand it correctly. If that were the case, the LXX translators lived much closer to the time that it was written and were native speakers, so would have had a better understanding of the meaning of the Hebrew than any of us today can looking back on it with modern scholarship.

Likewise, Paul does an exposition of this in 1 Corinthians 6:9, and includes both the "effeminate" (malakos) and "homosexuals" (arsenokoites) as sinners. I think it is most logical that "malakos" is referring to young boys in homosexual relationships, as you have outlined was a major problem in Greek culture, and "arsenokoites" is referring to adult homosexuals. This would mean that Paul understands Leviticus 20:13 to forbid both - and Paul was a far greater scholar of Hebrew than any of us.

I appreciate that the Hebrew may appear uncertain, but when you then look to the LXX translators and Paul for clarification - at least one of whom we would take as divinely inspired - we find that the correct interpretation is that male homosexuality is condemned.
 
Next question: who wrote the original Hebrew?
 
The reality is that we either accept it as divinely inspired regardless of who exactly wrote it down or we don't really have much to ground our beliefs on and can chop and change how we please and believe whatever we like.

The choice is not that dichotomous, especially given that we have a myriad of translations in many languages to choose from, as well as thousands and thousands of scraps of manuscripts and copied manuscripts. I'm not suggesting we can believe whatever we choose, but, in essence, that IS what everyone does: believes what they choose.

You didn't answer my question: who wrote the original Hebrew? Let's be more specific for the sake of this particular discussion: who wrote the original Hebrew manuscripts for Leviticus?
 
I run with the traditional view that it was Moses, but do not hold that too firmly as if it is incorrect I still assume that whoever else it was worked under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so the precise identity of the author is not a major concern of mine and not something I have seen a need to investigate in great depth.
 
Your question is also ignoring my key point and just going back to your own, querying the hebrew of Leviticus 20:13. But to focus solely on this is to ignore later exposition of the issue by scholars such as Paul, who clarifies it. What are your thoughts on 1 Corinthians 6:9, as just one example of the several relevant passages?
 
Let's be more specific for the sake of this particular discussion: who wrote the original Hebrew manuscripts for Leviticus?
All scripture is God breathed so God must be the Author of all scripture because He breathed it out. We have to uphold the belief in the divine inspiration and inerrancy of all scripture or we have no foundation or anchor upon which to stand for any controversial issue. People will reject or accept the passages of scripture that support their particular position and then man becomes the ultimate judge. We end up just like happened in the book of Judges; everyone doing what is right in his own eyes (Judges 21:25). Shalom
 
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Your question is also ignoring my key point and just going back to your own, querying the Hebrew of Leviticus 20:13. But to focus solely on this is to ignore later exposition of the issue by scholars such as Paul, who clarifies it. What are your thoughts on 1 Corinthians 6:9, as just one example of the several relevant passages?

I just went to I Cor. 6:9, and I'm confused: how is that verse relevant to our discussion about the Queer Choir?
 
[Edit: please note that my use phrases implying that original manuscripts were 'inspired' rather than perfectly breathed by Elohim through the humans he used to write them was correctly pointed out (below, by @frederick) to be substantively and definitionally theologically incorrect. I'm not editing it out from what follows in order to leave everything intact and to avoid confusion with @frederick's cogent post.]

You make some very sound arguments about what we should be focussed on @Keith Martin.

Your scriptural points are fascinating, I'm not conceding they're correct but they give plenty to ponder. As part of that pondering:

Augustine held (for a number of reasons) that the LXX translators were divinely inspired and acting in the capacity of prophets, so there was value in the text of both the LXX and the Hebrew even when the two differed. In cases where the Hebrew is unclear, the LXX clarifies the meaning. So if Leviticus 20:13 is unclear in the Hebrew, but in the LXX clearly condemns male homosexuality, this would mean that the correct meaning is that male homosexuality is condemned.

I would be very hesitant to approve something that is clearly condemned in the LXX just because the Hebrew is uncertain. Particularly because Hebrew is such an ancient language and was originally written without vowels, it could well be that the original was not uncertain and the uncertainty has been introduced simply because today we fail to understand it correctly. If that were the case, the LXX translators lived much closer to the time that it was written and were native speakers, so would have had a better understanding of the meaning of the Hebrew than any of us today can looking back on it with modern scholarship.I appreciate that the Hebrew may appear uncertain, but when you then look to the LXX translators and Paul for clarification - at least one of whom we would take as divinely inspired - we find that the correct interpretation is that male homosexuality is condemned.

You didn't answer my question: who wrote the original Hebrew? Let's be more specific for the sake of this particular discussion: who wrote the original Hebrew manuscripts for Leviticus?

I run with the traditional view that it was Moses, but do not hold that too firmly as if it is incorrect I still assume that whoever else it was worked under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so the precise identity of the author is not a major concern of mine and not something I have seen a need to investigate in great depth.

All scripture is God breathed so God must be the Author of all scripture because He breathed it out. We have to uphold the belief in the divine inspiration and inerrancy of all scripture or we have no foundation or anchor upon which to stand for any controversial issue. People will reject or accept the passages of scripture that support their particular position and then man becomes the ultimate judge. We end up just like happened in the book of Judges; everyone doing what is right in his own eyes (Judges 21:25). Shalom

@frederick, I entirely agree with your assertions. I also agree with @FollowingHim that Moses is the human being who authored Torah, but Moses was ultimately a transcriber for the True Author, the LORD Almighty, Elohim. I rest firmly in the belief that all of Scripture is the literal Word of God. However, that ONLY applies to Scripture itself, the original writings. Otherwise, we are in the position of acting as gods ourselves to attach our opinions to one translation or another to assert that that translation is also entirely God-inspired. God's Word as originally written is Divinely inspired, and translations may be generally righteous, but they are the work of human beings and have no more certain claim to absolute representation of the Word of God than do the books that line the shelves of Christian bookstores within which authors present their own representations of the Word of God.

I'm not beating a dead horse here about whatever the ultimately-correct interpretation is of Leviticus 20:13; instead I'm pointing out, @FollowingHim, what I consider to be a huge discrepancy between your understanding of inerrancy of Scripture and mine, as well as what I would hope you would recognize is a flaw in logic:
  • Surely, we can all agree that everything El intended to be in Scripture is entirely accurate, true, valid, righteous.
  • Surely, we can all agree that El spoke accurately to those He used to write out each book of Scripture.
  • I choose to believe that El not only spoke accurately to his Biblical servants but also spoke accurately through them to produce original manuscripts that were 100% accurate representations of what El intended to communicate.
  • Surely, we can all also agree that, while one or more of the human authors of Scripture may have somehow failed in (most likely insignificant but perhaps sometimes somewhat significant) entirely accurately representing El's intentions, it would still be the case that the original manuscripts were without question the most accurate human representations of the Word of God aside from hearing entirely directly from Yah or Yeshua.
  • Surely, we can also agree that, as original manuscripts were copied and copies of copies were copied, the only potential for change as a result of human error would be the introduction of corruption; surely, conversely, we can also agree that the copying and poor storage of copies of copies of original manuscripts has no potential to miraculously introduce improvement upon the Word of God -- in absence of some divinely-inspired new subsequent book in the Word that specifically declares that such improvement had become necessary in El's viewpoint. I'm aware of numerous instances when Scripture notes that something that was previously a matter of purposeful obscurity has been further revealed, but I'm aware of no scriptural instance in which El, given that it's His Word, indicates that some previous book in His Word needed to be improved upon.
If we can agree on all of the above, then ipso facto, no translation project whatsoever has any potential to improve upon that from which it is translating. My question about the author was entirely posed in response to your assertion that the members of the Septuagint project could have clarified the Hebrew from which they translated, thus supposedly making the Septuagint superior to the Hebrew from which they translated. This, to me, is risking blasphemy, because one might as well assert that the 70 rabbis knew better than Moses did what El meant to impart to us through him; it's really also asserting that the 70 knew better than El did what He meant to impart.

I do know that some among us consider certain or even each and every translation project to be inspired. I consider that to be logically absurd and use as my evidence for this the fact that translations differ substantially on so many substantial concerns. However, let's stipulate that some possibility exists that translation projects have some significant level of divine inspiration. Even stipulating that, it's a bridge too far to suggest that individual humans outside of the authors of Scripture have sufficient divine inspiration for us to consider their spoken or written opinions on Scripture to be equal to Scripture itself. If we start assigning the assertion of divine inspiration to individual humans, we open the door for such things as elevating papal encyclicals or volumes of pastoral sermons to the level of the Word of God. As we know, many Christians are more than willing to do so, believing, for example, that if the Pope or a Mormon President declares something, it is the equivalent of a Biblical update. Who cares what Augustine or any other of the early church fathers Constantine used to justify paganizing Christianity says about the supposed full validity of the Septuagint? Who was Augustine that we're supposed to take his word that translators improved upon the Hebrew they had available to them? Even if Augustine weren't a predominantly despicable human being (do your own research), even if Augustine were superior to Mother Teresa, what difference would his opinion make to whether a particular translation is directly inspired by Yah? You might not find any reason to justify investigating the degree to which any particular individual or corporate-church-assigned group is inspired by Holy Spirit, but can't you at least acknowledge that no level of Holy Spirit other than El's full Spirit and scripturally-declared Intention could possibly improve upon what came before?

Furthermore, you missed my point, creating this diversion as a distraction: the point wasn't that the Hebrew at the translation sites was somehow a reflection of corruption back before the Septuagint; the point was that the one particular translation site I utilized simply would not translate the English of "a man lying with a man as with a woman" from its wording in any English Bible translation back into any Hebrew characters that matched that of the extant Hebrew we have that supposedly translates as "a man lying with a man as with a woman." Surely you're not suggesting that the Septuagint 70 were aware of earlier iterations of the Leviticus 20:13 Hebrew that they considered more accurate than the one that they allowed to proceed forward as the best representation of the original manuscript? That they knew to trust something beyond that available to the rest of Israeldom but didn't see fit to preserve it? I suppose that's humanly possible, but at the very least, before making such an unlikely assertion, one should provide a reference for validating that that actually took place. I consider it blind acceptance to assume that any translation effort got everything right without researching what their protocols were.

Maybe, if I get myself back into this particular research, I'll uncover something like that on my own, but if you have validation that the 70 simultaneously overruled the common Hebrew in Lev. 20:13 and buried the more-accurate version they considered authoritative, please do share it.

I will just end with repeating that I am unconvinced in either direction what the full truth of Leviticus 20:13 is, and my purpose in discussing it is more in response to being asked to do so than it is to assert that considering my potential interpretation should be what alters anyone's rigid stance against homosexuals. What I believe should alter those stances is the Messiah's Second Commandment that we should love everyone with whom we associate, in combination with discovering that some of the abuser and abused statistics commonly disseminated are wildly off the mark.
 
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I don't want to get off on a tangent and derail this thread but I do need to clarify my position (and that of many others) regarding the implications of divine inspiration of Holy Scripture.
Surely, we can all also agree that, while one or more of the human authors of Scripture may have somehow failed in (most likely insignificant but perhaps sometimes somewhat significant) entirely accurately representing El's intentions, it would still be the case that the original manuscripts were without question the most accurate human representations of the Word of God aside from hearing entirely directly from Yah or Yeshua.
I can agree with much of what you have written @Keith Martin but your point here is something I need to clarify. Biblical inspiration is the belief that God breathed out His word and it was written without error; He is the Author of His Word. God inspired all scripture, He didn't inspire any writer; all scripture is God-breathed, no writer is God-breathed. Because God is True/Truth, He cannot be in error, but translators can and will be at times. Debate the accuracy of translations all you want (I'm staying out of this) but uphold and defend the faithfulness and inerrancy of the Word of the living and True God. One important caution to add here is that we avoid doing damage to the belief/doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture. Shalom brothers.
 
I don't want to get off on a tangent and derail this thread but I do need to clarify my position (and that of many others) regarding the implications of divine inspiration of Holy Scripture.

I can agree with much of what you have written @Keith Martin but your point here is something I need to clarify. Biblical inspiration is the belief that God breathed out His word and it was written without error; He is the Author of His Word. God inspired all scripture, He didn't inspire any writer; all scripture is God-breathed, no writer is God-breathed. Because God is True/Truth, He cannot be in error, but translators can and will be at times. Debate the accuracy of translations all you want (I'm staying out of this) but uphold and defend the faithfulness and inerrancy of the Word of the living and True God. One important caution to add here is that we avoid doing damage to the belief/doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture. Shalom brothers.

Two things, @frederick:
  1. Perspicuity: I had to look that one up, so I thank you for that, and I promise I will keep in mind the clarity of Scripture, although I do believe some things in Scripture were designed by our Creator to be unclear during certain ages, including the one in which we live -- and it may depend on the circumstances whether challenging a translation or not challenging a translation would do damage to perspicuity.
  2. I bow to your clarification of my use of the word 'inspired.' It was a semantic error on my part, and I beg forgiveness. As I stated in my previous post, I completely agree with what you wrote before and above: all original Scripture is inerrant; period. God is Truth. God breathed Scripture. No writer is God-breathed. God breathed through them; they didn't do the breathing/writing. Many human writers may, on the other hand, be inspired by God, but none are God nor have His Attributes.
 
I am certainly not meaning to imply that the translators could have improved upon the original text - certainly the original Hebrew is entirely God-breathed and unable to be improved upon. However, the major point I get from your comments on Leviticus is that the meaning is unclear. It might be forbidding homosexuality, but it might not be and might mean something else. You have not (as far as I can see) demonstrated that it certainly does mean something else, you have only demonstrated that there is uncertainty as to its meaning and there appear to be possible meanings other than the traditional one.

But, because God intended to write it that way, it does have a certain meaning. It is just not clear what that meaning is.

This lack of clarity could come from:
- Changes in language since then (we may have lost some understanding of the original Hebrew)
- Transcription errors (the original text may have been clear but the copies we have received may no longer be clear due to error)
- Deliberate mistranscription (I hope that is not the case but list it as a possibility, the accusation has been made often before)

I do not believe any translator could improve on the original meaning. However, the point of a translator is to restate the original meaning in different words (in another language). I am stating that the translators of the LXX may have accurately restated the original meaning. Certainly not improved on it, but accurately translated it.

And regarding your testing of artificial intelligence translators - I know that Google's computers might struggle to understand God's Word, but I assume that the 70 translators of the LXX had a fair bit more expertise in understanding scripture than Google does!
 
In 1 Corinthians 6:9, Paul is listing off a load of sinful lifestyles, and in that list he includes terms that appear to refer to pederasty and adult homosexuality. These would only be sin if they were forbidden in Leviticus. I take this to be confirmation, from Paul, that the correct understanding of Leviticus is that homosexuality is forbidden.
 
In 1 Corinthians 6:9, Paul is listing off a load of sinful lifestyles, and in that list he includes terms that appear to refer to pederasty and adult homosexuality. These would only be sin if they were forbidden in Leviticus. I take this to be confirmation, from Paul, that the correct understanding of Leviticus is that homosexuality is forbidden.
Sorry; when you asked the question, I opened up to the wrong chapter and looked at I Cor. 7:9; thus my confusion.

We already discussed I Cor. 6:9. We may have a difference of opinion when it comes to whether one can "enter the Kingdom of God" is the equivalent of being forbidden, but, either way, if I. Cor. 6:9 forbids gay male anal penetration (I'm assuming by homosexuality you're not also including female/female sexual interaction), it also, given its reference to sodomy and what that term almost universally meant at the time, would forbid anyone from oral sex or anything whatsoever involving anal play, gay or straight. I have no problem with someone having that interpretation for themselves in regard to what rules they should follow.
 
I would be very hesitant to approve something that is clearly condemned in the LXX just because the Hebrew is uncertain. Particularly because Hebrew is such an ancient language and was originally written without vowels, it could well be that the original was not uncertain and the uncertainty has been introduced simply because today we fail to understand it correctly. If that were the case, the LXX translators lived much closer to the time that it was written and were native speakers, so would have had a better understanding of the meaning of the Hebrew than any of us today can looking back on it with modern scholarship.

I do not believe any translator could improve on the original meaning. However, the point of a translator is to restate the original meaning in different words (in another language). I am stating that the translators of the LXX may have accurately restated the original meaning. Certainly not improved on it, but accurately translated it.

Color me dense, but I'm failing to see how the LXX could have more "accurately translated it." More accurately than what? They were translating Hebrew into Greek for the first time. One can pretty fairly assume they didn't have too many actual original manuscripts to work from, but they had to be translating from some set of written-in-Hebrew copies of Leviticus 20:13, and it's not too much to assume that they believed they were working from the best that existed. No matter where I go, I find the same set of Hebrew characters for Lev. 20:13. Are you suggesting that, since the work of the LXX, the Hebrew characters for Lev. 20:13 have changed and the ones being disseminated in Hebrew are now less accurate than the LXX?

If not, then I don't see how you get around asserting that the LXX somehow discerned, through some sort of special mojo they possessed at the time, that the Hebrew version they had available to them didn't entirely accurately represent the intention of the original manuscript of Moses and thus the pure intention of El -- and furthermore, their special voodoo empowered them to not only know that the then-current version in Hebrew didn't have it right but to fully and accurately envision what the actual accurate lost version was supposed to say. What in Scripture, before or since the LXX justifies you making the assertion that we should trust 70 men with being able to go back into the past and with certainty read the original manuscript in their time-traveling astral-body mind? Unless you can convince me that I'm missing something, this sure looks like you're asserting that the LXX created a superior translation from the ones they had to work with. Can you give me any example of something in life that has been made superior by downstream reproduction?

Again, I don't know if my interpretation is the last word -- and I would bet money that it's not -- but you're not getting close to convincing me that the LXX is some fully-divinely-inspired oracle, much less that it comes so close to being God-breathed that it was capable of correcting mistakes from upstream reproductions that were downstream from the originals and know what those original manuscripts meant to say when the original manuscripts were no longer available. I would hope they weren't making that claim, because if they were it certainly would be in the running for qualifying as blasphemy.

And, also again, if better versions of Lev. 20:13 were available to the LXX to correct whatever might have been floating around that had become inaccurate or confusing, why would the inaccurate Hebrew version be the only one to survive to this day? Why wouldn't the LXX have also ensured that the accurate Hebrew also survive? Or were they the only rabbis ever granted right-hand-of-Elohim status, but those who followed have just been careless?

I maintain that you are placing far too much trust in, as @frederick states it, non-God-breathed human being writings. Yah will in His Own Good Time make everything crystal clear. In the meantime, given that He didn't see fit to invent digital recording devices prior to providing the first alphabet, we are stuck with corrupted versions of Scripture that we have to make the most of. I would assert that the general, essential messages of Scripture come through loud and clear because of the holographic nature of the manner in which they echo throughout the Bible, but further assert that one is treading on unstable ground when one attempts to assert with one's own supposed divine certainty that one knows the exact meaning of many of the side issues that truly only receive occasional mention; it is just such issues, especially ones related to sexuality, that are the most susceptible to corruption, because they reflect the common human tendency to be insufficiently comfortable with sexuality and thus to fall prey to being inspired by the introduction of bias that decreases that discomfort or provides organized religion with yet another snare with which they can control us rather than enlighten us.
 
Color me dense, but I'm failing to see how the LXX could have more "accurately translated it." More accurately than what?
I did not say they "more" accurately translated it. I just said that they may have accurately translated it. Not more accurately than anything, and certainly not more accurately than the Hebrew. Just accurately.

To put it really simply, when 70 native Hebrew speaking scholars in the 3rd century BC (chosen by the High Priest of the day as the top experts he had available) say that Leviticus 20:13 means X, and @Keith Martin in the 21st century AD (who doesn't speak Hebrew but can read commentaries and use online tools) says it means Y, I find it more probable that the first set of scholars are correct and Keith is mistaken than the alternative.
 
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