Prostitution?

[paterfamilias]

It works like this if there's no victim no crime was committed. That means all of these speed limits, drug laws, prostitution laws etc should not be here.

We definitely are not on the same page at all or you don't like my question and are side stepping it.

Crime qua crime is null input.
Crime as you are referring to it is a written down code in some book or computer. It doesn't necessarily address good, bad or the will of the community.

If you don't want to delve further on that it is no biggie, I was just curious about your political perspective and degree of libertarianism as there is just a massive spectrum within that camp.
No more entertaining thing than getting a bunch of libertarians together and get them talk...about anything. It Always devolves into chaos.

I am talking about the will of the community and what the community is willing to bear from a neighbor's behavior before taking action.

 

[theleastofthese]

I couldn't imagine a loving husband caring so little about he and his wife's health that he would risk bringing home STIs. Even while using a condom there's a risk, let's not even imagine if they're broken, used incorrectly or not at all.

"Condoms can reduce the risk of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) but they don't provide complete protection. The effectiveness of condoms depends on the STI and how they're used:

• Condoms are highly effective against: HIV and hepatitis B when used correctly
• Condoms are estimated to be 98% effective against: Chlamydia and gonorrhea
• Condoms can't completely prevent: STIs that spread through skin-to-skin contact, like herpes, syphilis, and genital warts
• Condoms can't cover areas not protected by the condom,: like the scrotum, vulva, and perineum
• Condoms can't prevent parasitic infections: Like lice or scabies"

 

[paterfamilias]

Yeah I don't know anything about that. I'm not really in any libertarian groups so I have no idea about their ideology I just say libertarian to describe my political worldview better but doesn't mean I agree with the party or the consensus.

Fair enough and believe me,, the libertarian party absolutely foes not agree eitj the libertarian party. To such an extent that it is like watching five separate teams of clowns trying to win a tag team mud wrestling match.
funny but very cringe inducing

When it comes to government like I said if there is no victim if you can't articulate the victim, the crime, and what damages and injuries they suffered then it's none of the governments business.

I agree there for a fact and this is part of whi I disagree with government involvement in prostitution. I don't believe they control the lions share of the market by any means and that their regulation of that portion doesn't prevent the victims being present in the other portion of the prostitution market.
On top of that, for the purposes of group cohesion (probably easier to see it as a moralistic stance) I disapove of the government regulation of the sec industry as if it is licensed and rubber stamped by a bureaucrat then that is tacitly approval. To my mind it erodes the culture and opens wider cracks that lead to collapse.
Historically within collapse cycles it always begins with prosperity, then collapse of faith, then collapse of morals and fertility and then importation of an underclass for labor etc etc etc.

That should be the general rule with government intervention and how laws are created.

Agree only probably would go a little further and remove almost all government involvement in the private persons affairs.

Is it practical or will it happen?
Lol, nope. We have a collapse cycle in process and I figure we will be starting from scratch before we fix our previous mistakes.

 

[MemeFan]

If the wife is withholding sex from his as punishment he should absolutely be able to buy a hooker. Her having this monopoly on sex is why a lot of wives use it to abuse their husbands. This probably one of the main reasons I support polgyny too cause I see this happen in marriages all the time.

I never expected somebody here in any positive way mentioning hookers.

If wife isn't spreading legs, just do preselection. Let other normal women find you attractive. It's enough, no need to enjoy syphilis.

And I sense you need better understand of libertarianism. At best it only implies that starting force against hookers is bad. It's doesn't mean your aren't allow to expel them from your property or thinking they are evil person who deserve mockery/shaming.

 

[paterfamilias]

Anyway, if one has to have hookers then I think that every party should be safe on all levels and that there should be no violent types involved in the industry. Just not sure if there is a great mechanism for that at any larger scale.

I saw this again in passing and I am trying to figure out a circumstances or scenario where having a couple or three prostitutes in a small tp medium sized town could work out.
I am sure there had to have been plenty in the town I grew up in but i certainly never knew of them.
Closet I ever heard of was from some guy in my teens about a girl who would do sundry shenanigans for a can of Copenhagen.
Ugh.
No clue about any of that world in real life so not even sure of the prominence of hooking in big cities or how that works.

Only circumstances that I can think of where I would not have the ick factor 100% is the old fashioned mistress scenario. Where a man has a kept woman in an apartment somewhere in town while being married.
I don't like the idea at all. The guy should not be a puss and should make polygamy happen before having a mistress but I at least am only moralistic about it as opposed to full on creeped out.

 

[paterfamilias]

I couldn't imagine a loving husband caring so little about he and his wife's health that he would risk bringing home STIs. Even while using a condom there's a risk, let's not even imagine if it broke.

"Condoms can reduce the risk of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) but they don't provide complete protection. The effectiveness of condoms depends on the STI and how they're used:

• Condoms are highly effective against: HIV and hepatitis B when used correctly
• Condoms are estimated to be 98% effective against: Chlamydia and gonorrhea
• Condoms can't completely prevent: STIs that spread through skin-to-skin contact, like herpes, syphilis, and genital warts
• Condoms can't cover areas not protected by the condom,: like the scrotum, vulva, and perineum
• Condoms can't prevent parasitic infections: Like lice or scabies"

Agree but it is more than the disease risk.
Always a chance of going to jail, getting robbed by her or her pimp, getting assaulted or possibly embroiled in who knows what loonatic crap.

Worked with a guy many years ago who told a story about occasionally visiting this woman in the afternoons. He was single and I figured she was too. Yeah...not so much. Apparently she was a hooker part time as a stay at home wife and would have customers here and between dropping off and picking up kids at school.
The husband came home one day in the middle of the day and almost caught them at it.
Was told to me ad if it was supposed to be a funny story.
I was not laughing.

That poor bastard she was married to

 

[FollowingHim]

I know a dude who lived in Europe and been to brothels and told the whole story. It's not like most people in the west and America think it is. It's totally safe and not this unhealthy filthy place. Then there's protocols and protection is place in case things get out of hand like bodyguards and security.

I live in New Zealand, and prostitution was legalised here years ago. Morally, I actually agree with prostitution being legal - the Bible does not forbid it either as I have said elsewhere. However, to think that being "legal" makes it safer in any way for either the men or the women involved is highly naive. Most prostitution is still on the edge of the law - lots of abuse still occurs. Being legal just boosts business (you can openly advertise your services) and makes it easier to hide the abuses. For instance, the cops can't raid just because you've got a brothel, they have to have specific information now that you really have an underage girl working there before they can come in. And because it's now more socially acceptable it's easier to attract vulnerable people into the industry. Abuses are not reduced by legalisation, they are increased.

Don't support an industry that abuses vulnerable women. They do a lot to put a nice face on it, and you've fallen for the propaganda. The underbelly is still filthy.

 

[Deesee25]

The feedback I have gotten is that the vast majority of prostitution is still underground and involves organized crime, human trafficking and child/teen trafficking.

Doesn't make alot of sense if it's legal. Human trafficking and prostitution are two different things though. There's a difference in someone doing prostitution by their own choice vs being forced into it. Not all prostitution is human trafficking but human trafficking will be a thing whether it's illegal or not. There's plenty of human trafficking here in America with prostitution being illegal so that doesn't really prove anything.

 

[Deesee25]

Don't support an industry that abuses vulnerable women. They do a lot to put a nice face on it, and you've fallen for the propaganda. The underbelly is still filthy.

See people lose me they say "don't support an industry that abuse vulnerable women" because the issue is women will make that claim to dodge the accountability of that being something they wanted to do. A lot of people don't understand cause we have what I call female idolatry especially in the west that women are these innocent angels and they can do no wrong when it reality I see women do more under handed things than men. They're just more under the radar about it because society tends to turn a blind eye to it. Just like women tend to abuse children more than men do. Some women just want to be prostitution, pornstars, or onlyfan girls by their own choice it is what it is. Then they'll regret it later and play The victim card I've seen happen multiple times.

Are there women that get abused? Of course but again we have to define this abuse term cause that term gets thrown around like Gatorade on a hot summer day but when you get into the meat of things there was no actual "abuse" and she agreed to everything by her own will and terms more times than not really.

 

[Deesee25]

However, to think that being "legal" makes it safer in any way for either the men or the women involved is highly naive. Most prostitution is still on the edge of the law - lots of abuse still occurs. Being legal just boosts business (you can openly advertise your services) and makes it easier to hide the abuses. For instance, the cops can't raid just because you've got a brothel, they have to have specific information now that you really have an underage girl working there before they can come in.

The thing is you can do that with anything that is legal. Pornography, strip clubs, etc. I'm sure you got some of that going on there too. The thing is human trafficking is illegal as it if people want to abuse and hurt people they're gonna do it. Thing is with freedom there is some risks involved but to expect the state to protect everyone from everything in the guise of safety is exactly how and why we have the tyranny we have in our government now. The old saying "those who will sacrifice freedom over safety deserves neither". Not to mention the biggest human traffickers in the world IS our governments. That's a fact pretty much. While your expecting the government to track down on human trafficking they'll be the biggest violators of it. Unfortunately in our evil world these practices are gonna always exist there's no real way around it. We can do our best to crack down and stop it but they will always exist. But as I always say I'd rather have dangerous freedom than peaceful slavery.

 

[paterfamilias]

Doesn't make alot of sense if it's legal.

it makes an enormous amount of sense. It is a criminal enterprise undercutting the legal industry.
I will give you an example that is close to me and easy to verify..

Oklahoma went medical weed a few years ago and had the normal boom time and a lot of bust since. Why the bust? Because there is Way more weed being grown, imported even and sold illegally than in the legal shops where Like all other states you can just get a card for a flat fee. Gee I have anxiety or my ass hurts or whatever and a Dr on the pay of the shop signs the form.
But the illegal weed dwarfs the legal weed sales apparently.

Why? Can't they just get a license and be good little gardeners and make a mint? Nah...they are criminals and that is the whole point.. tonnes of criminals are criminals because that is what the want to be and how they work as people, not because of lack of options. Lots of them in Oklahoma are apparently Chinese gangsters and Mexican cartel types that are here illegally as well and so no license for them but certainly business as usual.
They are going to be doing other drug sales and a bunch of other stuff as well of course.

Human trafficking and prostitution are two different things though.

Yeeeees...but if you don't see the massive overlap in that diagram then I think we may have some ugly truths for you.

There's a difference in someone doing prostitution by their own choice vs being forced into it.

yes,, I agree but not sure how that is relevant beyond the voluntarily ones are more apt to be in the licensed brothels and the trafficked and addicted sex slaves will be in an unlicensed fist full of scenarios.

Not all prostitution is human trafficking but human trafficking will be a thing whether it's illegal or not.

Yes...we don't off the disincentive of killing human traffickers. In point of fact billions worth of dollars go from public coffers to the UN and a tonne of criminal NGOs to facilitate that trafficking. It could be economic migrant men or families or children on their own. I do not wish to allow my mind to dwell on the latter. This is going on all over the world. Well...all of them are headed to the States and Europe and the diaspora nations in a very well coordinated fashion.

I am not sure why you seem to think I am conflating different issues. Whst I am saying is that they are interwoven and networked together as overall human exploitation industry

There's plenty of human trafficking here in America with prostitution being illegal so that doesn't really prove anything.

I am at a bit of a loss...I don't propose to have proved anything but you do seem to be proving my point with respect to the human trafficking...there is a crsp tonne of it going on. Is some of it for labor other than prostitution? Undoubtedly but so very much is for sex work. In all countries where it is or isn't legal.
The world is full of evil people who will do evil no matter what.
The fact that an activity is legal, illegal, potentially licenseable or can be practiced on a street corner...there will Always be a niche bad people are attempting to fill and victimizing others to their own perceived benefit

Sorry to sound preachy on the topic but I really don't get most of your remarks here. Not sure if you have a fundamental disagreement, not sure that you get how I am expressing my notions or miffed that I am on a different page.
Everything I have been responding to this time particularly makes sense to me in the context of the conversation.

Maybe someone else can straighten me out

 

[Deesee25]

it makes an enormous amount of sense. It is a criminal enterprise undercutting the legal industry.
I will give you an example that is close to me and easy to verify..

Oklahoma went medical weed a few years ago and had the normal boom time and a lot of bust since. Why the bust? Because there is Way more weed being grown, imported even and sold illegally than in the legal shops where Like all other states you can just get a card for a flat fee. Gee I have anxiety or my ass hurts or whatever and a Dr on the pay of the shop signs the form.
But the illegal weed dwarfs the legal weed sales apparently.

Why? Can't they just get a license and be good little gardeners and make a mint? Nah...they are criminals and that is the whole point.. tonnes of criminals are criminals because that is what the want to be and how they work as people, not because of lack of options. Lots of them in Oklahoma are apparently Chinese gangsters and Mexican cartel types that are here illegally as well and so no license for them but certainly business as usual.
They are going to be doing other drug sales and a bunch of other stuff as well of course.

Well sounds like it's going to exist regardless so might as well make it legal anyways. At least this way females have that option to it the safe legal way rather than the illegal way and get involved in all types of other dangers.

 

[Deesee25]

I am at a bit of a loss...I don't propose to have proved anything but you do seem to be proving my point with respect to the human trafficking...there is a crsp tonne of it going on. Is some of it for labor other than prostitution? Undoubtedly but so very much is for sex work. In all countries where it is or isn't legal.
The world is full of evil people who will do evil no matter what.
The fact that an activity is legal, illegal, potentially licenseable or can be practiced on a street corner...there will Always be a niche bad people are attempting to fill and victimizing others to their own perceived benefit

Sorry to sound preachy on the topic but I really don't get most of your remarks here. Not sure if you have a fundamental disagreement, not sure that you get how I am expressing my notions or miffed that I am on a different page.
Everything I have been responding to this time particularly makes sense to me in the context of the conversation.

Maybe someone else can straighten me out

Idk I'm kind of confused at your point since it seems like your making the claim that prostitution would increase human trafficking or something. Idk you'll have to explain why you brought up human trafficking to begin with.

 

[Deesee25]

Can't they just get a license and be good little gardeners and make a mint?

Well I don't agree with licenses in general I shouldn't have to ask the government permission to Start my own business but that's another topic in and of itselfm

 

[Deesee25]

If wife isn't spreading legs, just do preselection. Let other normal women find you attractive. It's enough, no need to enjoy syphilis.

Not sure why your assuming all prostitutes will have diseases that's kind of a simpleton way of looking at prostitution. In general I agree with you but that doesn't mean it should be an option. What people don't get is just because I say something should be legal doesn't mean I support or I'd do it. It's more from a pro liberty perspective the government should be involved in these type of choices. I did say that there would be some advantages for men as it wouldnt hold the monopoly that women have on sex today. Giving guys more leverage.

 

[FollowingHim]

The thing is you can do that with anything that is legal. Pornography, strip clubs, etc. I'm sure you got some of that going on there too. The thing is human trafficking is illegal as it if people want to abuse and hurt people they're gonna do it. Thing is with freedom there is some risks involved but to expect the state to protect everyone from everything in the guise of safety is exactly how and why we have the tyranny we have in our government now. The old saying "those who will sacrifice freedom over safety deserves neither". Not to mention the biggest human traffickers in the world IS our governments. That's a fact pretty much. While your expecting the government to track down on human trafficking they'll be the biggest violators of it. Unfortunately in our evil world these practices are gonna always exist there's no real way around it. We can do our best to crack down and stop it but they will always exist. But as I always say I'd rather have dangerous freedom than peaceful slavery.

I agree, I've already said prostitution should be legal.

But you're going further than that, and using the fact that it is legal as part of your justification for why it's ok to use prostitutes. That is what I am objecting to.

 

[theleastofthese]

I can't possibly think of a better way to dry up a woman's desire for a man quicker than knowing that he's open to sleeping with prostitutes. If your intent is to even the playing field, then you're not seeking marriage for the right reasons to begin with. A relationship shouldn't be a competition of who can hurt the other more. Think about your moral values and hold yourself accountable to those standards, regardless of how your spouse or anyone else treats you. From an emotional standpoint, there's absolutely no better way to completely ruin your wife's feelings for you in the long term than to turn to prostitutes because you assume she's withholding sex out of spite. There are a whole host of issues women face with their emotions, bodies, hormones, child birth, stress, etc. that could be responsible for her low-sex drive. Not that I agree she should be withholding sex to begin with, but as it's already been suggested, there are better ways to resolve that.

Who cares about the "monopoly women hold on sex." They should hold the upperhand prior to marriage, they should have higher standards. They have more to lose by having sex outside of marriage. It doesn't benefit us in the slightest to sleep with multiple men, not emotionally, economically, physically or socially. We suffer the emotional brunt of being used sexually. We risk the possibility of becoming pregnant/being single mothers, our career opportunities suffer, our chances at finding a solid relationship afterwards suffer, our reputation suffers. It isn't the same for men. In my opinion women aren't picky enough about who they sleep with these days!

 

[Deesee25]

I can't possibly think of a better way to dry up a woman's desire for a man quicker than knowing that he's open to sleeping with prostitutes. If your intent is to even the playing field, then you're not seeking marriage for the right reasons to begin with. A relationship shouldn't be a competition of who can hurt the other more. Think about your moral values and hold yourself accountable to those standards, regardless of how your spouse or anyone else treats you. From an emotional standpoint, there's absolutely no better way to completely ruin your wife's feelings for you in the long term than to turn to prostitutes because you assume she's withholding sex out of spite. There are a whole host of issues women face with their emotions, bodies, hormones, child birth, stress, etc. that could be responsible for her low-sex drive. Not that I agree she should be withholding sex to begin with, but as it's already been suggested, there are better ways to resolve that.

Who cares about the "monopoly women hold on sex." They should hold the upperhand prior to marriage, they should have higher standards. They have more to lose by having sex outside of marriage. It doesn't benefit us in the slightest to sleep with multiple men, not emotionally, economically, physically or socially. We suffer the emotional brunt of being used sexually. We risk the possibility of becoming pregnant/being single mothers, our career opportunities suffer, our chances at finding a solid relationship afterwards suffer, our reputation suffers. It isn't the same for men. In my opinion women aren't picky enough about who they sleep with these days!

Again you keep saying "should" not what is. That's the difference. We have to operate in what Is not should.

 

[theleastofthese]

Again you keep saying "should" not what is. That's the difference. We have to operate in what Is not should.

Can you explain more? Also many times the "should" of something is very important in influencing the "what is."

 

[Deesee25]

Can you explain more?
Also many times the "should" of something is very important in influencing the "what is."

You kept saying should. Well they should do this they should do that and on some level I agree with you there's a lot of things they SHOULD do but they don't. Plus Paul and the torah even says withholding sex from your husband is wrong to begin with yet women do it their husbands constantly then wonder why they cheat on them. Thing is also as my boy rollo tomassi says: "you can't negotiate geneniue desire". Either she wants to bang you or she doesn't but if she doesn't well you got two options: go get another woman or find a prostitute. I would recommend the former rather than latter of course but it's an option.