Speaking of conspiracies....

[MeganC]

In science (and most everything else in life) it's usually easy to tell who's telling the truth. They're the ones saying, "Here's my evidence and please feel free to prove me wrong."

The liars tend to say, "This is true. I do not have to prove it. If you come up with any evidence to prove me wrong then you're a traitor, a heretic, an apostate, you're endangering lives and you MUST be silenced!"

 

[MeganC]

If flat earth belief is wrong, time will show it wrong, if perfect sphere earth is wrong, in time it will be shown too. Right?
So time will tell, God is Truth, not man.

The earth is not a perfect sphere. It bulges at the equator.

 

[raulus]

If flat earth belief is wrong, time will show it wrong, if perfect sphere earth is wrong, in time it will be shown too. Right?
So time will tell, God is Truth, not man.

His scriptures are true and we have them right here. They say many things that contradict what we are told about our world. I see it as a matter of faith. Not what do you believe, but who do you believe, really.

For instance, if the scriptures say there's foundations to the earth repeatedly, and that the earth is immoveable then why do we not believe that? Simple question. Easy to find the answer biblically, yet no one actually believes that.

 

[cubanito]

The earth is not a perfect sphere. It bulges at the equator.

His scriptures are true and we have them right here. They say many things that contradict what we are told about our world. I see it as a matter of faith. Not what do you believe, but who do you believe, really.

For instance, if the scriptures say there's foundations to the earth repeatedly, and that the earth is immoveable then why do we not believe that? Simple question. Easy to find the answer biblically, yet no one actually believes that.

Good point, and the implications are likely a big deal too. If flat earth bible read is wrong, nothing will really happen. If sphere is wrong, then people would loose trust for many many made institutions and scientism, including many government ones. If people loose faith, compliance might fall sharply and precipitate some nasty actions, maybe a boost in depopulation agenda etc. Who knows.
I think much error is not random, God can cause a supernatural one, a blindness, even did that with parts of old Israel. We are supposed to be part of a new spiritual one, but same principles apply. So, time will tell.
I will keep testing all I can for myself while asking Him for supernatural discernment. All we can really do right?

 

[FollowingHim]

I expected you to lean into miraculous vision. I've had more time to think about that verse.

“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭7‬

“and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭30‬

Jesus coming with the clouds, is a phrase that means that He will appear in the sky to everyone. The second verse clarifies even further. These two verses in and of themselves is stating that you will not need to see through the earth at all, but that He will be visible to everyone in the sky. Yet the earth spans thousands of miles, with people all across it, and if it were a ball, it should be impossible for everyone to see Him in the sky when some are under the ball and others on top of it. There's no way this is congruent with a ball earth model. These two verses infer that the world is not a ball at all.

I do more firmly than before believe that these are positive verses towards the flat, domed, stationary earth model that other parts of scripture makes the case for. It would make much more sense that we are assuming the earth wrong, and that God actually made the earth in a way that everyone would see His Son return at the same time, instead of turning the world inside out or giving every single person extreme miraculous vision. Which would rule out a ball earth.

I assume you will double down and lean again into miraculous vision?

I just don't see how you can make sense of these two verses with your current beliefs of the world.

First, please tell me whether these prophecies are literal or figurative:

Isaiah 11:12 "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

Revelation 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

Then I will answer your question on Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:30.

Please note that I am not trying to avoid the question - I will certainly answer it. I'm just ensuring we get to the heart of the matter by approaching the issue systematically and collaboratively as Jesus did in Matthew 21:25, and as Socrates approached such issues. I want us to move to a collective understanding rather than just preach at each other from our respective pulpits.

 

[FollowingHim]

What about the new "trust the science" gender mutilation stuff? Science now says there's many human genders etc.
What about the global warming science that is being used to control and diminish people, soon whole population?

It's all part of the same anti-science trend that is permeating all sides of our society. The idea that "science" is something done by the official priests in white coats, and everyone else must just passively accept what they say, or reject science itself.

The progressives are abandoning science when it comes to gender.
The greenies and many elite who see a profit in it are abandoning science when it comes to climate.
Some of the religious are abandoning science when it comes to the shape of the earth.

It's all the same deception, and everyone is falling into the same unscientific paradigm, regardless of whether they accept or reject the official narrative, they are accepting the very idea that this is what "science" is - priests in white coats telling us something we have to believe or reject on faith.

What is rejected is that science is simple, something everyone can do. It is a universal tool, and not a religion. Don't abandon it, embrace it, God gave it to us to understand His creation.

 

[RonHiggins]

That's far less entertaining though.

Samuel you are forgiven because he lives so far away from real football but there's absolutely nothing more interesting than football college or NFL

 

[frederick]

This is why you must not rely on someone else's videos of a skyline on one occasion, and would be better off observing it yourself in a local place on multiple occasions, as then you'd see this with your own eyes and would not be relying on the words of others.

This is the same reason I went to the Grand Canyon and took a flight over it to get a bird's eye view. There are so many conflicting reports and you can't be certain who has what bias or agenda to push, so doing your own research is one way to settle it in your mind.

 

[frederick]

What about the new "trust the science" gender mutilation stuff? Science now says there's many human genders etc.

"Science" doesn't say anything, people say things and some people tell lies about things. Some people knowingly and purposefully tell lies and others say things that are not true out of ignorance.

When the religious leaders wanted to put Jesus to death, they sought false testimony against Jesus (Matt. 26:59) to accomplish that end. They then stirred up the crowd to cry out, Crucify Him (Mark 15:11, 13). Sinners with a satanic agenda will go to great lengths to deceive others and mislead them into believing lies. Those people may then become unwitting accomplices in that evil agenda. It's therefore crucial for each person to be wise and discerning, and not to be led into believing and promoting error. Shalom

 

[raulus]

First, please tell me whether these prophecies are literal or figurative:

Isaiah 11:12 "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

Revelation 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

Then I will answer your question on Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:30.

Please note that I am not trying to avoid the question - I will certainly answer it. I'm just ensuring we get to the heart of the matter by approaching the issue systematically and collaboratively as Jesus did in Matthew 21:25, and as Socrates approached such issues. I want us to move to a collective understanding rather than just preach at each other from our respective pulpits.

I had to think about it for a little bit to see which part of those verses you were asking was literal or figurative. Those two verses I take for what they say, literally.

Satan and his goons killed Job's children with a wind on their house when they were assembled for dinner. I have no qualms believing the second verse you offered is really saying that. It is in extreme likelihood that they(specific spiritual beings) have that ability, pertaining to the wind part.

“While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: and, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭1‬:‭18‬-‭19‬

The four corners part too, I believe. Probably just means that they will be on the four furthest parts of the world, which would be considered corners. Since I believe in the world differently too, corners can also be something that I just do not yet understand. I think one would only take these verses figuratively because of the effects of modernity on our way of thinking. Assuming our 'superior' understandings of the world into the text. Same effect it has on marriage when the average modern day person reads scripture. They can't comprehend it due to their current understanding so they fill in the blanks with how they think it should mean. Now do I believe there are figurative verses in the bible? Yes. Sure, I do. And am I exempt from making modern assumptions on scripture that may cloud the truth? Surely no, I am fully capable.

 

[raulus]

Good point, and the implications are likely a big deal too. If flat earth bible read is wrong, nothing will really happen. If sphere is wrong, then people would loose trust for many many made institutions and scientism, including many government ones. If people loose faith, compliance might fall sharply and precipitate some nasty actions, maybe a boost in depopulation agenda etc. Who knows.
I think much error is not random, God can cause a supernatural one, a blindness, even did that with parts of old Israel. We are supposed to be part of a new spiritual one, but same principles apply. So, time will tell.
I will keep testing all I can for myself while asking Him for supernatural discernment. All we can really do right?

Yeah, and please continue to tell me your findings. Very interested. The topic is very entertaining in general.

 

[FollowingHim]

Obviously the four corners are what I was referring to.

The four corners part too, I believe. Probably just means that they will be on the four furthest parts of the world, which would be considered corners. Since I believe in the world differently too, corners can also be something that I just do not yet understand.

What you have said here is that the four furthest parts of the world from wherever the prophetic events are set "would be considered corners". Even you are not claiming that the world has literal corners. Rather, you are hypothesising that there are regions of the world that are "considered" corners - in other words, figuratively referred to using the word "corner", even though they are not literal corners.

In fact, your own interpretation of those two passages is equally consistent with both a spherical earth and a round one, given neither has literal corners, but both would have four regions of the world that were the four furthest from the events in question.

My point is that here are two verses that very clearly, if taken literally, describe a square earth. Yet neither of us believes the earth is literally square. Just because a prophetic verse is written in a way that implies a certain shape of the world does not mean the world actually is that shape. These prophecies use figures of speech. And other prophetic passages may also.

“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭7‬

“and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭30‬

Again, here we have some prophesied events that seem to imply a particular structure for the world - that somehow everyone will be able to see Jesus simultaneously. But as I stated earlier, this is a physical impossibility in either a round or flat earth model.

Can you see lightning in the sky above Jerusalem from wherever you live? If not, how would you see Jesus in the sky there from where you live either? You could not, without some form of supernatural bending of whatever laws of physics prevents you from seeing the sky above Jerusalem today.

Therefore, these verses are not describing something that occurs somewhere that everyone can physically see in normal circumstances - no such place exists. A different interpretation must be chosen. Several are possible:

1. Everyone will see him in the sky immediately due to a supernatural alteration of the laws of physics allowing distant events to be seen everywhere.
2. Everyone will see him in the sky immediately through human technology - televisions, video streaming and so forth.
3. Note very carefully the wording of those verses. The following suggestion is actually completely consistent with the words used: Everyone will not see him immediately. Rather, everyone will see "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (whatever that is - think of a comet, everyone can see it, just not all at once, but within a day everyone will have had a view of it). Then he will come in the clouds, and some people will see him doing that, followed by everyone seeing him as he travels around the world doing stuff.

Other interpretations may be possible, I honestly don't know which is correct. But my point is that these verses are not explained by the earth being flat. You are still left with the problem that the sky above Jerusalem is not visible from the entire world. That problem must be resolved in a different way (I've suggested three possible options).

This does not show the earth is flat because the earth being flat doesn't actually explain the prophecy.

 

[raulus]

Obviously the four corners are what I was referring to.

What you have said here is that the four furthest parts of the world from wherever the prophetic events are set "would be considered corners". Even you are not claiming that the world has literal corners. Rather, you are hypothesising that there are regions of the world that are "considered" corners - in other words, figuratively referred to using the word "corner", even though they are not literal corners.

In fact, your own interpretation of those two passages is equally consistent with both a spherical earth and a round one, given neither has literal corners, but both would have four regions of the world that were the four furthest from the events in question.

My point is that here are two verses that very clearly, if taken literally, describe a square earth. Yet neither of us believes the earth is literally square. Just because a prophetic verse is written in a way that implies a certain shape of the world does not mean the world actually is that shape. These prophecies use figures of speech. And other prophetic passages may also.

Again, here we have some prophesied events that seem to imply a particular structure for the world - that somehow everyone will be able to see Jesus simultaneously. But as I stated earlier, this is a physical impossibility in either a round or flat earth model.

Can you see lightning in the sky above Jerusalem from wherever you live? If not, how would you see Jesus in the sky there from where you live either? You could not, without some form of supernatural bending of whatever laws of physics prevents you from seeing the sky above Jerusalem today.

Therefore, these verses are not describing something that occurs somewhere that everyone can physically see in normal circumstances - no such place exists. A different interpretation must be chosen. Several are possible:

1. Everyone will see him in the sky immediately due to a supernatural alteration of the laws of physics allowing distant events to be seen everywhere.
2. Everyone will see him in the sky immediately through human technology - televisions, video streaming and so forth.
3. Note very carefully the wording of those verses. The following suggestion is actually completely consistent with the words used: Everyone will not see him immediately. Rather, everyone will see "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (whatever that is - think of a comet, everyone can see it, just not all at once, but within a day everyone will have had a view of it). Then he will come in the clouds, and some people will see him doing that, followed by everyone seeing him as he travels around the world doing stuff.

Other interpretations may be possible, I honestly don't know which is correct. But my point is that these verses are not explained by the earth being flat. You are still left with the problem that the sky above Jerusalem is not visible from the entire world. That problem must be resolved in a different way (I've suggested three possible options).

This does not show the earth is flat because the earth being flat doesn't actually explain the prophecy.

Your first point is good. As I said, I do not yet understand what else corner would mean. Even with the view I hold the word corner is still up in the air for me. It doesn't fit either model as you've stated, so I've resulted to either it is figurative or an unknown for now.

It's always possible that I do not have all of the information of this world enough, and that there very well could be corners. But obviously that wouldn't be testable between us, and it would go well beyond into conspiracy theory. I'm not afraid to have those type of theories but they should at least, make sense.

All of your other explanations are fine points as well. Very thorough actually. I'm not convinced out of my position, but I do grow in respect for yours. Good work.

 

[cubanito]

Obviously the four corners are what I was referring to.

What you have said here is that the four furthest parts of the world from wherever the prophetic events are set "would be considered corners". Even you are not claiming that the world has literal corners. Rather, you are hypothesising that there are regions of the world that are "considered" corners - in other words, figuratively referred to using the word "corner", even though they are not literal corners.

In fact, your own interpretation of those two passages is equally consistent with both a spherical earth and a round one, given neither has literal corners, but both would have four regions of the world that were the four furthest from the events in question.

My point is that here are two verses that very clearly, if taken literally, describe a square earth. Yet neither of us believes the earth is literally square. Just because a prophetic verse is written in a way that implies a certain shape of the world does not mean the world actually is that shape. These prophecies use figures of speech. And other prophetic passages may also.

Again, here we have some prophesied events that seem to imply a particular structure for the world - that somehow everyone will be able to see Jesus simultaneously. But as I stated earlier, this is a physical impossibility in either a round or flat earth model.

Can you see lightning in the sky above Jerusalem from wherever you live? If not, how would you see Jesus in the sky there from where you live either? You could not, without some form of supernatural bending of whatever laws of physics prevents you from seeing the sky above Jerusalem today.

Therefore, these verses are not describing something that occurs somewhere that everyone can physically see in normal circumstances - no such place exists. A different interpretation must be chosen. Several are possible:

1. Everyone will see him in the sky immediately due to a supernatural alteration of the laws of physics allowing distant events to be seen everywhere.
2. Everyone will see him in the sky immediately through human technology - televisions, video streaming and so forth.
3. Note very carefully the wording of those verses. The following suggestion is actually completely consistent with the words used: Everyone will not see him immediately. Rather, everyone will see "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (whatever that is - think of a comet, everyone can see it, just not all at once, but within a day everyone will have had a view of it). Then he will come in the clouds, and some people will see him doing that, followed by everyone seeing him as he travels around the world doing stuff.

Other interpretations may be possible, I honestly don't know which is correct. But my point is that these verses are not explained by the earth being flat. You are still left with the problem that the sky above Jerusalem is not visible from the entire world. That problem must be resolved in a different way (I've suggested three possible options).

This does not show the earth is flat because the earth being flat doesn't actually explain

What if the intensity lightning was much brighter than the sun and came from whole firmament as opposed to a single point source?
This is a cool entertaining conversation, is nice (and fun) to at least ponder and question all things. Thanks guys..
I am still trying to independently test more of all that.

 

[cubanito]

Speaking of manipulation in science, does anyone have new updates about 15 minute cities and WEF satanic control agendas?
Many of those groups claim the own the science. Even if we don't have humans in much of science, AI still would be controlled and maintained by some of their groups.
So, on earth cosmology stuff, implications are super interesting of both understandings. One would expose and perhaps discredit the anti human globalist power priesthood in control, the other would keep status quo.
Those are interesting things to ponder even if just for entertainment contents, for now.

 

[raulus]

What if the intensity lightning was much brighter than the sun and came from whole firmament as opposed to a single point source?
This is a cool entertaining conversation, is nice (and fun) to at least ponder and question all things. Thanks guys..
I am still trying to independently test more of all that.

Definitely could be an idea as well. From where I am to Jerusalem is so far away, it narrows down to seeing the event to either miraculous sight or cataclysmic proportions. Or some televised method like Samuel mentioned.

These set of verses looks to be a crazy, cataclysmic event. With the view of the world I hold to, it would be considered a removing of the firmament and seeing up to God and his throne. I'd like to hear what you guys think of it.

“And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6‬:‭14‬-‭16‬

It is very interesting that once the heaven is departed that the men wish to hide their faces from He that sits on the throne, as if He is in plain view. Honestly, this is very terrifying to me. Haha

 

[cubanito]

Definitely could be an idea as well. From where I am to Jerusalem is so far away, it narrows down to seeing the event to either miraculous sight or cataclysmic proportions. Or some televised method like Samuel mentioned.

These set of verses looks to be a crazy, cataclysmic event. With the view of the world I hold to, it would be considered a removing of the firmament and seeing up to God and his throne. I'd like to hear what you guys think of it.

“And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6‬:‭14‬-‭16‬

It is very interesting that once the heaven is departed that the men wish to hide their faces from He that sits on the throne, as if He is in plain view. Honestly, this is very terrifying to me. Haha

Firmament rolled back as a scroll is interesting, as if it it was tent like somehow, or some planetarium he's luminaries were in.
People can be very prideful and stubborn, rebel even against God. So hiding in caves part doesn't surprise. Many elites already have made fancy underground places.
Large stones coming down are scary. Foot sized hail with spikes around here was bad enough. Sounded like loud explosions on roof. 26gauge metal with some OSB won't stop stones.

 

[cubanito]

The earth is not a perfect sphere. It bulges at the equator.

Should right; but NASA shows perfect sphere and continents change in proportional size, depending on year blue marbles are released. I always thought it was strange.

 

[MemeFan]

I expected you to lean into miraculous vision. I've had more time to think about that verse.

“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭7‬

“and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭30‬

Jesus coming with the clouds, is a phrase that means that He will appear in the sky to everyone. The second verse clarifies even further. These two verses in and of themselves is stating that you will not need to see through the earth at all, but that He will be visible to everyone in the sky. Yet the earth spans thousands of miles, with people all across it, and if it were a ball, it should be impossible for everyone to see Him in the sky when some are under the ball and others on top of it. There's no way this is congruent with a ball earth model. These two verses infer that the world is not a ball at all.

I do more firmly than before believe that these are positive verses towards the flat, domed, stationary earth model that other parts of scripture makes the case for. It would make much more sense that we are assuming the earth wrong, and that God actually made the earth in a way that everyone would see His Son return at the same time, instead of turning the world inside out or giving every single person extreme miraculous vision. Which would rule out a ball earth.

I assume you will double down and lean again into miraculous vision?

I just don't see how you can make sense of these two verses with your current beliefs of the world.

Omnipresence.

Lord's body can "materialize" on several places at once.

Scientific theory is logical explanation why something happens. And usually there are several possible explanations. You need to seek them all, then use eliminination process to find best explanation.

For example: You notice wet road. Rain has fallen. Are there any logical alternative explanations? Yes. Flood, canalization has overflowed, car washing etc...

First obvious explanation may be wrong.

Same with theological exolanations.

What about the new "trust the science" gender mutilation stuff? Science now says there's many human genders etc.
What about the global warming science that is being used to control and diminish people, soon whole population?
Now some call it climate change, climate always changes in cycles, depending more on solar output and big volcanic activity etc. NASA was exposed, in some leaked emails a few years ago, how they were manipulating base lines for historical temps, like science manipulated things to make covid look much worse and scare people, especially with fake modeling schemes. So, if humans can corrupt science, they probably will.
Ultimately time will tell right? So most of what we know from others is what we are told until we can personally independently verify, and even then we should double check. We all need to pray for supernatural discernment. Is too easy to fall in errors, we are all very vulnerable. Only God can give us His supernatural discernment, not even science.
I think many things are corruptable, I don't usually trust anything unless can personally test. Kind of like doing a good preflight before a flight. Can't just trust the maintenance experts.
I even doubted God and had to test his existence. Now I know he's real, before He was what I was told, I wasn't absolutely sure.

I got feeling you don't even understand what science is. If you can't immediately recognize fakers who claim there are multiple genders, something is wrong.

Social engineers and power grabers always wanted use people with perceived authority to give credibility to their ideas. Before it was priests, now it's scientists.

 

[cubanito]

Omnipresence.

Lord's body can "materialize" on several places at once.

Scientific theory is logical explanation why something happens. And usually there are several possible explanations. You need to seek them all, then use eliminination process to find best explanation.

For example: You notice wet road. Rain has fallen. Are there any logical alternative explanations? Yes. Flood, canalization has overflowed, car washing etc...

First obvious explanation may be wrong.

Same with theological exolanations.


I got feeling you don't even understand what science is. If you can't immediately recognize fakers who claim there are multiple genders, something is wrong.

Social engineers and power grabers always wanted use people with perceived authority to give credibility to their ideas. Before it was priests, now it's scientists.

I agree, so we have a scientology of sorts representing itself to be uncorrupt science, that mess rules over the world now.
I do agree with some things like safe and effective (from their view), it was safe for them implementing agenda without liability and effective in moving agenda script forward. So, we didn't have the proper perspective and assumed it was for our own good. The devil is in the details.
Why do we trust strangers in power?