Speaking of conspiracies....

[Mark C]

Can you see lightning in the sky above Jerusalem from wherever you live? If not, how would you see Jesus in the sky there from where you live either? You could not, without some form of supernatural bending of whatever laws of physics prevents you from seeing the sky above Jerusalem today.

Take a close look at the literal wording of Exodus 20:18, IMMEDIATELY after the 'Voice of YHVH' from Har Sinai. It's even more clear in the original Hebrew, in case the English translators balked at the implications:

"And ALL [kol] of the people SAW ['roim' - plural] the THUNDERINGS..."

Earliers sages [Rashi, etc] take special note of that word. I suggest, in a more modern, even 'nerdy' understanding, that 'to see' is a very "high bandwidth" operation. More information, much faster, than just hearing. No wonder it scared the You-Know-What out of 'em, and they asked Moses to intercede from there on out. Much of the surrounding texts supports something similar, I suggest.

But there is a larger (probably more than one) point: to "see Him coming..." is without question a 'high-bandwidth' operation. It can bypass our eyes (maybe right to the cerebral cortex, since He certainly can) and arguably physical 'line-of-sight' the same way.

I think it might even lend a new meaning to phrases like "eyes to see," and how it's possible to be blind, in spite of the physical organ.

But it also might help explain a lot of what many of us, praise Yah, may "see".

 

[The Revolting Man]

I expected you to lean into miraculous vision. I've had more time to think about that verse.

“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭7‬

“and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭30‬

Jesus coming with the clouds, is a phrase that means that He will appear in the sky to everyone. The second verse clarifies even further. These two verses in and of themselves is stating that you will not need to see through the earth at all, but that He will be visible to everyone in the sky. Yet the earth spans thousands of miles, with people all across it, and if it were a ball, it should be impossible for everyone to see Him in the sky when some are under the ball and others on top of it. There's no way this is congruent with a ball earth model. These two verses infer that the world is not a ball at all.

I do more firmly than before believe that these are positive verses towards the flat, domed, stationary earth model that other parts of scripture makes the case for. It would make much more sense that we are assuming the earth wrong, and that God actually made the earth in a way that everyone would see His Son return at the same time, instead of turning the world inside out or giving every single person extreme miraculous vision. Which would rule out a ball earth.

I assume you will double down and lean again into miraculous vision?

I just don't see how you can make sense of these two verses with your current beliefs of the world.

Which might be convincing if those verses at all purported to be a literal description of natural science.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Samuel you are forgiven because he lives so far away from real football but there's absolutely nothing more interesting than football college or NFL

Them Dawgs gonna three-peat!

 

[NBTX11]

No one can leave the firmament to reach the highest heaven, where God's habitation and throne is, besides the Son.

Where did John go in the book of Revelation.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, [g]“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches [h]which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;

 

[raulus]

Where did John go in the book of Revelation.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, [g]“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches [h]which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;

He went nowhere in the flesh. It is a vision, or revelation, given to him by an messenger angel. Part of this vision may have also been given to him in spiritual form, out of the body possibly.

These verses below shows that it was a revelation/vision from Jesus sent by an angel.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭8‬

“I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭16‬

 

[frederick]

He went nowhere in the flesh.

John was called up to the place of the throne of God in heaven.
Rev. 4:1-2 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.” Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

Paul was caught up to heaven.
2 Cor. 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.

It seems speculative to say it was only in the spirit since the Word of God does not affirm that to be the case. Shalom

 

[raulus]

@frederick It is my belief that a few people have been to the third heaven, but they did not ascend of their own volition like Jesus, in the flesh. No man hath ascended is His wording.

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭13‬

Enoch was translated by God.

Elijah was delivered up by a chariot of fire.

The man that Paul knew was caught up, whether in the spirit or no, he doesn't know.

But Jesus just ascended, on His own. Indicating that He has the power to do that due to His deity.

With the verse in Revelation you used, I still hold that John is seeing the door standing open in heaven, while in a vision.

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭8‬

With this verse you can see that John is saying that he is seeing and hearing these things, which is an odd way to put it if you are just actually there. So I don't believe he went there, but was shown it in a vision or what you may call, a revelation. A revealing. Which is why "when I had heard and seen" is followed immediately by him being in front of this angel, while on the earth, "which shewed me these things".

“I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭16‬

The angel was sent to "testify" on the behalf of Jesus, which is by his showing John these events. If John did go up, then I do believe this would of been worded differently. Jesus, The Father, other beings, would of technically been testifying as well if John had been in their presence. But yet only this one angel has testified to John.

And even if the angel did actually take him to the third heaven, where God's throne is, my original point would still be made in that John did not ascend of his own volition like Christ, but would of been delivered up.

I have no issue if John went up, I just do not believe that based off of these points. In my readings this is how I've understood it.

 

[The Revolting Man]

He went nowhere in the flesh. It is a vision, or revelation, given to him by an messenger angel. Part of this vision may have also been given to him in spiritual form, out of the body possibly.

These verses below shows that it was a revelation/vision from Jesus sent by an angel.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭8‬

“I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭16‬

Remember that Christ prophesied that John would see the Second Coming. I believe he did, in Heaven outside of the linear nature of so called “time” that we are so bound by. He saw the literal events as they unfolded. The simplest explanation then is that John was in Heaven is something resembling “for reals”.

 

[FollowingHim]

What if the intensity lightning was much brighter than the sun and came from whole firmament as opposed to a single point source?

If the light came "from the whole firmament", then it would be visible everywhere regardless of whether the earth is flat under a solid firmament, or spherical with the firmament referring to the atmosphere. And that could be the "sign of the Son of Man" that everyone would see in the sky.

 

[cubanito]

True, sphere perspective would be an air / vapor soft (virtual?), Not firm, firm-ament, not solid at all; in flat perspective, firmament would a gigantic strong solid cristal structure like a fish bowl or terrarium on top of atmosphere separating waters from waters. Time will tell for sure.
So far, what I can read in bible is that the firmament is strong or solid, not soft. Implications are to me the most interesting and entertaining, if modern view is wrong, powers would loose credibility and trust, unless we are all hypnotized somehow. Maybe more would wake up and perhaps we would see the biggest faith in God revival ever.
If flat view is wrong, nothing would happen and current control powers will remain strong, actually their agendas will keep moving forward.
The other might cause a big hiccup. I find the possible implications the most interesting.
A parallel in the political world would be like finding out, on higher levels, we are being ruled by satanic decepticons in high places, sociopaths who want to normalize pedophilia, human enslavement, gender confusion, family sabotage and depopulation while pretending they are helping us reduce evil human activity. Weird logic from my perspective. A new global technocratic feudalism.

 

[FollowingHim]

So far, what I can read in bible is that the firmament is strong or solid, not soft.

That's not what you read in the Bible, it's what you read in a concordance defining the word firmament.

The Bible defines firmament differently. In Genesis 1, the firmament is called "heaven", and we are then told that birds fly in the heaven / firmament - not under the firmament, in it. Birds cannot fly in a solid. They fly in the atmosphere. Therefore Genesis 1 clearly defines the firmament as the air.

 

[cubanito]

That's not what you read in the Bible, it's what you read in a concordance defining the word firmament.

The Bible defines firmament differently. In Genesis 1, the firmament is called "heaven", and we are then told that birds fly in the heaven / firmament - not under the firmament, in it. Birds cannot fly in a solid. They fly in the atmosphere. Therefore Genesis 1 clearly defines the firmament as the air.

Have you considered for at least entertainment, the implications?

 

[FollowingHim]

Of birds trying to fly inside a sheet of glass? Yes, that would be somewhat humorous!

 

[cubanito]

True, sphere perspective would be an air / vapor soft (virtual?), Not firm, firm-ament, not solid at all; in flat perspective, firmament would a gigantic strong solid cristal structure like a fish bowl or terrarium on top of atmosphere separating waters from waters. Time will tell for sure.
So far, what I can read in bible is that the firmament is strong or solid, not soft. Implications are to me the most interesting and entertaining, if modern view is wrong, powers would loose credibility and trust, unless we are all hypnotized somehow. Maybe more would wake up and perhaps we would see the biggest faith in God revival ever.
If flat view is wrong, nothing would happen and current control powers will remain strong, actually their agendas will keep moving forward.
The other might cause a big hiccup. I find the possible implications the most interesting.
A parallel in the political world would be like finding out, on higher levels, we are being ruled by satanic decepticons in high places, sociopaths who want to normalize pedophilia, human enslavement, gender confusion, family sabotage and depopulation while pretending they are helping us reduce evil human activity. Weird logic from my perspective. A new global technocratic feudalism.

Has anyone considered these implications? The power in control would never deceive us to implement satanic anti human agendas and hide God from us, so by default beastie becomes god?

 

[steve]

Has anyone considered these implications? The power in control would never deceive us to implement satanic anti human agendas and hide God from us, so by default beastie becomes god?

Have you considered writing science fiction?
There just has to be a monetarily lucrative venue for that fertile imagination of your’s.

 

[cubanito]

Have you considered writing science fiction?
There just has to be a monetarily lucrative venue for that fertile imagination of your’s.

These ideas are probably sacrilegious even to Hollywood sci-fi industry. Lol
Would only earn me a fact checker's rebuke.

 

[raulus]

Has anyone considered these implications? The power in control would never deceive us to implement satanic anti human agendas and hide God from us, so by default beastie becomes god?

You won't get much luck talking about the biblical cosmology here @cubanito. Most will just write you off, it isn't a serious subject to them. They believe that they already know our world based off of what they've been told. Can you blame them? You will just be considered taking the bible too literally, though you are being consistent. They will think of you as a nutty flat earther and just won't take you seriously. Which isn't anything you wouldn't expect.

I don't mind talking about it. I'm not scared to go against the popular opinion, but there's plenty of other pressing matters. I don't see the use in wasting time on this if you can't get anywhere with it. Just my two cents to you.

 

[cubanito]

You won't get much luck talking about the biblical cosmology here @cubanito. Most will just write you off, it isn't a serious subject to them. They believe that they already know our world based off of what they've been told. Can you blame them? You will just be considered taking the bible too literally, though you are being consistent. They will think of you to be nutty, and just won't take you seriously.

I don't mind talking about it. I'm not scared to go against the popular opinion, but there's plenty of other pressing matters. I don't see the use in wasting time on this if you can't get anywhere with it. Just my two cents to you.

Exactly, thanks. I am not afraid to question everything and look silly, that's why immediately saw the global scamdemia control script too.
We all need to ask for supernatural discernment. Worse storms are coming. Hosea 4, Ezekiel 14 principles.

 

[FollowingHim]

They believe that they already know our world based off of what they've been told.

Oh no, don't put me in that straw-man box. I know the world because I have carefully and skeptically investigated it. It is too easy to just dismiss people who think differently to you as "brainwashed", and avoids considering the fact that it may be you who is wrong.

Has anyone considered these implications?

I am a practical man. I want to discover truth, so I can know the truth and make the right decisions in my real life. I have no interest in wondering about the implications of every possibility that might not be true, I'd prefer to use that time to determine which one is true, and then just consider that. Unless I was writing a fictional novel.

 

[raulus]

Oh no, don't put me in that straw-man box. I know the world because I have carefully and skeptically investigated it. It is too easy to just dismiss people who think differently to you as "brainwashed", and avoids considering the fact that it may be you who is wrong.

I am a practical man. I want to discover truth, so I can know the truth and make the right decisions in my real life. I have no interest in wondering about the implications of every possibility that might not be true, I'd prefer to use that time to determine which one is true, and then just consider that. Unless I was writing a fictional novel.

I'm not directing this at you. You are fine, the points you made are fine. It is just a matter of reading the room, in general when someone comes and says the world is flat and domed to a group of people who believe the opposite, naturally they are seen as nutty and nonsensical. What point is there to continue much further once everything is said, and both views have gotten their points across? To just keep talking and look stupid to you all? I see that as pointless. Don't get upset because I'm giving this advice to @cubanito, not to stop, but to just be aware of that. Flat earth talk typically outruns its welcome. I don't think this is a far-fetched belief of mine. I see it as being rational.

And sure I've considered that I could be wrong, have you? But even with that consideration I am not convinced by your arguments, as much as you are not convinced by mine. And that is fine with me. I still believe with all that you've said, and I've listened intently, that what @cubanito has brought to the table is completely more consistent with scripture than what you've brought.