Torah vs Grace?

[steve]

Law vs Grace, I thought that's what this thread WAS about.

Maybe you don’t realize that in your attempts to defend your view of the doctrine of Grace you do a lot of attacking the idea of following Torah. Making the discussions more Torah vs anti-Torah.
No one on the other side is anti-Grace, we don’t see them as mutually exclusive.

 

[Cap]

Maybe you don’t realize that in your attempts to defend your view of the doctrine of Grace you do a lot of attacking the idea of following Torah. Making the discussions more Torah vs anti-Torah.
No one on the other side is anti-Grace, we don’t see them as mutually exclusive.

Do you even read what I post. How in the world can I try any more to get across that I AM NOT AGAINST TORAH. (I tried putting a smily thing to lighten up the harshness to @Pacman s response) I am not your or anyone elses enemy. I don't try to defend any view i just try sharing mine which I am starting to realize is not politically correct. I do hope others see what is really going on here.

I know I said I wasn't going to post in here, but I did have something to say. I don't think the issue is Torah VS Grace. They are not opposites fighting each other. To understand Grace one has to understand the Law. And to realize what has been paid, or given Grace for, one has to know the Law or what they are unable to fulfill.

I think the issue is more the differences between the the old covenant and the new covenant. But, even that is not fully it, its more to understand the new covenant one has to understand the old. And a deeper issue is who is the correct priesthood that is governing each covenant, and even which one is in charge of them all. If Abraham was technically the head priest on earth at the time, by what authority did he offer sacrifice to the head priest higher than him? And aren't we to do the same.

And this I think is the real problem between those who say they follow Torah (old covenant) and those who follow Grace (new covenant). It's not that the Grace people want to do away with the Law, and I don't think the Law people want to do away with Grace. It's actually all in the ideas of discipline.

The idea of the Law was to show us that we can't keep the Law. The idea of Grace is that God will keep it for us but we have to have faith that He can do that and that He will save us. Now, in those things we love God because of what He is able to do and we each find was to show that love. If someone wants to follow God out of love by demonstrating that following His Laws in the Old Covenant to the best of their ability than that is exactly want it is, love for the Creator for them. But that doesn't make anyone else wrong for understanding that same Law from a spiritual purpose and loving God from a different point of view.

The hard part is, I think, that the Law people want Law people to help them in the love they want to show God, and the Grace people want Grace people to help them in their faith to Love God the way they see Him. So each side fights to get people to their side.

 

[Pacman]

Maybe you don’t realize that in your attempts to defend your view of the doctrine of Grace you do a lot of attacking the idea of following Torah. Making the discussions more Torah vs anti-Torah.
No one on the other side is anti-Grace, we don’t see them as mutually exclusive.

Do you even read what I post. How in the world can I try any more to get across that I AM NOT AGAINST TORAH. I don't try to defend any view i just try sharing mine which I am starting to realize is not politically correct. I do hope others see what is really going on here.

Please start a new thread if you want to argue this out. I don’t want this thread to go there...

 

[Cap]

Please start a new thread if you want to argue this out. I don’t want this thread to go there...

Of course, I'm always in the wrong.

 

[Pacman]

Of course, I'm always in the wrong.

Dude I included both you and Steve in that reply. It’s directed at both of you and anyone else who wants to argue...

 

[Cap]

Dude I included both you and Steve in that reply. It’s directed at both of you and anyone else who wants to argue...

 

[FollowingHim]

I'm actually going to jump in on the side of @Cap here.

The point of this thread is:

So it keeps getting brought up by someone that Torah keepers are somehow ignoring grace or that the two concepts some how are opposed to each other.

@Cap, the probable "someone" in the original post and therefore someone from whom it would be very valuable to hear a clarification of the actual issue if it was misunderstood, pointed out that Law and Grace are not in opposition to each other. While various people from the Torah side of the fence have said the same thing. Cap then went on to make various additional statements, that may be seen as off-topic, but I'd see as more an attempt to clarify what the disagreement may really be about, if it is not truly a dichotomy between Torah and Grace. And his opinions in that post are basically orthodox Protestantism so not objectionable in any way.

So if everyone basically agrees that "They are not opposites fighting each other.", "If there is no Torah, there can be no grace.", "If there's no Grace then there's no point in Torah." (to quote @Cap, @PeteR, and @ZecAustin), then what is the real question?

That's a serious question. What is the real disagreement here? It doesn't seem to be Torah vs Grace.

If there's a real disagreement here that needs discussion, someone can post a thread on it somewhere that they're happy to receive different opinions on it, including the views of both orthodox Protestantism and Hebrew Roots. In the meantime, feel free to continue collating affirmations of the fact that Torah and Grace are not in conflict in this thread. The fact everyone seems to agree on this is a good thing and should drive us towards further unity.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Now don't laugh at me (I'm kidding, I love being the center of attention) but one of the more interesting looks at this dichotomy is the book and musical Les Miserables.

When you look at it from the angle that Valjean is under grace and Javert represents the Law without grace it gets very interesting.

Now that I have something real to connect the ideas in the play to, I might actually want to see it.

 

[IshChayil]

Whenever I hear/read a comment about Torah vs. Grace I'm reminded of the woman of valor in Proverbs and how the torat-chesed al-leshonaH
"The Torah of Grace is on her tongue"
That one line speaks volumes to me on the matter.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Now that I have something real to connect the ideas in the play to, I might actually want to see it.

It's a book too and this stuff comes out more in the book but they come out in the musical. There is also a brief poly sub plot that comes out more in the book but also a little in the musical.

 

[Mojo]

Now don't laugh at me (I'm kidding, I love being the center of attention) but one of the more interesting looks at this dichotomy is the book and musical Les Miserables.

When you look at it from the angle that Valjean is under grace and Javert represents the Law without grace it gets very interesting.

You sissy boys always revert to show tunes and jazz hands.

 

[The Revolting Man]

You sissy boys always revert to show tunes and jazz hands.

It seems like this is the time to refer you back to the gold paint thread. Is musical theater rally all that surprising?

 

[Mojo]

It seems like this is the time to refer you back to the gold paint thread. Is musical theater rally all that surprising?

Well, I did like to watch "Singin in the Rain" and couldn't help singing "Somewhere over the Rainbow" as a kid.

Do we need to open up a BF true confessions thread?

 

[PeteR]

Do we need to open up a BF true confessions thread?

Actually, that might be hilarious....

... so, in the spirit of @ZecAustin who never ceases to amaze me... I played lead role in an opera that garnered me a trip with the international boys choir.... haven't sung second soprano since.

 

[Mojo]

Actually, that might be hilarious....

... haven't sung second soprano since.

I hope not. That would be odd for a grown man, but then again, who knows.

 

[Nikud]

Do we need to open up a BF true confessions thread?

so, in the spirit of @ZecAustin who never ceases to amaze me...

I played Tybalt in Romeo and Juliet and use to be in punk rock band (a decade and a half pass punks prime) called Public Intoxication. I was the song writer and singer. You didn't have to have talent to sing in a punk rock band just I don't care attitude. We had one cd called Free Beer. All originals except one cover song, I fought the Law and the Law Won.....go figure.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Actually, that might be hilarious....

... so, in the spirit of @ZecAustin who never ceases to amaze me... I played lead role in an opera that garnered me a trip with the international boys choir.... haven't sung second soprano since.

You win.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Actually, that might be hilarious....

... so, in the spirit of @ZecAustin who never ceases to amaze me... I played lead role in an opera that garnered me a trip with the international boys choir.... haven't sung second soprano since.

I did play Marcellus Washburn in The Music Man and had a chorus role in Oliver and Guys and Dolls. All of this was community theater of course as was my turn as Romeo (sorry Kevin) where in I.ad libbed thr entire last act and Oberon in A Midsummer's night dream. I loved that role.

 

[steve]

I was part of the stage crew for Brigadoon........

 

[Mojo]

I did play Marcellus Washburn in The Music Man and had a chorus role in Oliver and Guys and Dolls. All of this was community theater of course as was my turn as Romeo (sorry Kevin) where in I.ad libbed thr entire last act and Oberon in A Midsummer's night dream. I loved that role.

And the surprises never end.
Going on the road with Mama Mia?