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What is fornication?

FollowingHim2 said:
I haven't been to a church that actually taught me anything for a long time. Not just in marriage, but in anything. They just seem to find a passage in the bible and waffle. It always eventually gets back to how much Jesus loves us, and that's about it. I know Jesus loves me, I wouldn't be in church otherwise, I don't need to know that.
There are things that churches NEVER teach on. Well, that's not entirely true, Samuel preached them in the church we were going to before we were kicked out.... Marriage, sex, circumcision, for examples. Things that you actually need information on to make decisions in your life.

We've never been to a Christian marriage seminar, but we went to a pre marriage course. There were 4 couples plus the married couple leading it, and all were surprised at how traditional Samuel and I were. It was natural for us, but we were also trying to hold to scripture for how marriage is supposed to be. At the time I just thought it was funny that no one else was doing things the way we were, but now I look back and think that it's a very sad thing. In all honesty, I'm not sure how much that course actually taught us about married life at all, especially since it was a blanket thing based on anyone who thought anything.
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There are many churches like that in America too. It kind of depends which faith stream you're looking at. The old mainline denominations vary from motivational talks to outright social justice craziness. But amoung the conservative evangelical groups there is still a lot of in depth Bible teaching; problem is they interpret all of it according to the philosophies of the world.
 
rockfox said:
There are many churches like that in America too. It kind of depends which faith stream you're looking at. The old mainline denominations vary from motivational talks to outright social justice craziness. But amoung the conservative evangelical groups there is still a lot of in depth Bible teaching; problem is they interpret all of it according to the philosophies of the world.
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I think a lot of them are trying for the motivational talk thing, but it ends up more like brow beating. All “law” (stuff we need to do) and no Gospel (what Christ has done for us).

It is His kindness that leads us to repentance.
 
Oh ya. Some time in the US around 15 to 20 years ago the motivational speaker type almost all gravitated towards being pastors or parachurch ministries. Around about the same time the Christian book publishing and the mega church movements took off. Christian radio is just chock full of them. But your local pastor does it to. It sounds nice and gets approval without actually challenging anyone.
 
FollowingHim2 said:
Samuel characterises this as: 'books aimed at women to buy for their husbands/fathers which they will never actually read'.

Note: I've stopped buying him books... lol.
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Include "Christian" Hollywood movies in that bucket. I hate most of them. Most of the men are...not manly.
I must say that I did cry in Courageous. I have a daughter and it killed me to see that dance scene. Other than that...mostly drivel.
 
cnystrom said:
I read once that Teddy Roosevelt said that the only man he ever feared was his father.
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How rare that is today. But if children know no fear of their earthly father, it is unlikely they'll fear their heavenly one either.

I heard a pastor preach once there was no fear in love, in God's love. Seem's he'd never read Proverbs 1.
 
I agree that there is no sin of "sex before marriage" and I even believe that sex creates marriage. But there is a case that a man sins if he has sex with a virgin.

Seduce a virgin without the intention of marrying (or without the permission of the father)
Exodus 22: 16-17.
There is an unconditional penalty for the seduction, the payment of the bride price, so we know that something wrong took place.

Remember that sex with a menstruating woman is also a sin. Then sexual immorality can occur even within marriage.
 
I think that in Matthew 19:9 Christ is not talking about adultery, because the punishment for adultery was death. How is a man going to divorce a dead person?

If a man married a woman, and she was not a virgin, the punishment was also death.

So what kinds of sexual immorality was Christ referring to? O.o
 
rustywest4 said:
All this talk and back and forth, yet no one is asking the important question....

Can chicks make out? :cool:

Lol seriously though ...

I see it was lightly mentioned earlier in this thread...
The wife and I very recently had strong debate over the topic of female to female physical intimacy/ sexual interaction. I get her a bit fired up if I point out that the Biblie is basically silent on the issue. In fact, the one passage from Romans chapter 1 that is so commonly used to preach against such behavior actually seems to be discouraging anal sex rather.

Be brave men... Am I way off?
Cuz to me it seems like it was important to the Lord for Him to list all restricted forms of sexual interactions... yet this one is left out?
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I believe that sex between women is wrong, as we see in Genesis that woman was made for man. This is the model of intercourse God wants.

And generally, those who support lesbian sex are hypocrites. They say that we cannot interpret Romans 1:26 as referring to lesbian sex because the law does not condemn it. But the law also does not condemn anal sex with women. Whatever the interpretation of Romans 1:26, Paul added something to the law.

I also see some problems with considering acceptable lesbian sex. Some say lesbian sex would not be adultery because it has no penetration. But then if a man had oral sex on a married woman wouldn't that be adultery? Would not incest oral sex between father and daughter?

And honestly, this is VERY CUCK. This is no different from a man who lets his wife have sex with another man. And a woman who loves a man won't want to have sex with someone else, because a woman's love is based on emotion.
 
Julia Mykaele said:
because a woman's love is based on emotion.
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I will explain it

Men and women do not love equally. I believe this is one of God's reasons for allowing polygyny, but not polyandry. It also has the fact that woman was made for man.

Man's love is based on deeds. Man has a more sacrificial nature than woman. Who died in the wars to protect the nation? When a house catches fire who is going to save everyone?
When a man loves a woman he wants to protect her, when a woman loves the man she wants to be protected by him. It is a solipsistic love.

In Ephesians 5 Paul speaks a sermon to the man, but in the end he only tells the woman to respect the man ...

I have also heard that in Titus 2: 4 the word used for love is not the Greek word agape. Darby bible translates correctly.

"Titus 2: 4 that they may admonish the young women to be attached to [their] husbands, to be attached to [their] children."

If a woman has sex with another woman she will feel emotional attachment to that woman. That is, she is sharing a love that should belong only to man. She is not only sharing "love", but the body.
This is to deny the woman's reason for being created.
 
eye4them said:
it seems reasonable to think that God would have included a mechanism that the women (wives of one man) can use to help work through their differences, namely "lesbian sex".
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This is just an assumption. Because we never see in the bible that wives could have sex with each other. Problems occur in polygamous marriages because of jealousy of wives. The solution to this problem is not lesbian sex. Women should understand that their husbands are not their priorities.

Not to mention that this makes marriage into polyamory.
 
Just for clarity @Julia Mykaele, this is an extremely controversial issue that individuals here have a range of views on, but is not something this ministry wishes to promote in any way, for a range of reasons. We do accept those who choose to do this within their marriages, because scripture is not clear enough for us to condemn them on this point. But I really don't want you to get the wrong impression and think we're all into wife-on-wife sex!
Julia Mykaele said:
Wouldn't it be adultery for a man to have oral sex on a married woman? Was it okay to have oral sex between father and daughter?
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Much of this can be simplified with "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Obviously none of us would want our wives to have oral sex with another man - therefore this is sinful. Father/daughter is also clarified if you're using a Catholic bible in Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) 7:24 "Hast thou daughters? have a care of their body, and shew not thyself cheerful toward them." Any sort of sexual excitement would breach this, even if it were not penetrative. So both situations are clearly wrong.

However you do need to bear in mind the scriptural definition of "adultery". Adultery is specifically taking another man's wife. Or, as a husband is in authority over his wife, it is a wife going from one authority and serving another - this is why physical adultery parallels idolatry, when people go from God and serve another god instead. So, if a man's wife does certain things with another man, that is adultery, because she is going to another man and doing those things outside her marriage, with another man. However, if the same wife does things with a second wife, also married to her husband,, she is not necessarily being unfaithful to her husband. Everything she is doing is still underneath his authority. Even if it is "sex", it could not really be classed as "adultery" as she is not going outside his authority - I'm not saying it's necessarily righteous, but I'm pointing out why things that happen entirely within one man's marriages don't clearly fit into the categories of behaviour we know are condemned as sin.
 
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