Meat Why wouldn’t God alter His commands?

[Mark C]

...So surely we all agree that, in principle (whether or not He has), God could give one instruction to the Israelites through Moses, and then a different instruction to other people later, without contradicting the fact that He never changes and His instructions never change either?

THIS is in fact an important point, and FAR beyond what is likely to be allowed without serious censorship, until the sneering and condescension are reigned in. I've addressed it in 'lengthy' audio teachings, ALL of which have lately been banned and censored.

Suffice it to say - TOO briefly, and admittedly over-simplified, that some Rabbinic Jews (the you-know-what Synagogue) [aka the 'one house' variant in some renderings] claim that "gentiles" are ONLY supposed to follow the so-called "Noachide commandments." And that "Torah is for Jews." (BY WHICH they mean, including their ORAL Torah, which Yahushua called a "burden" - among other things.)

I DO NOT hold to that !

BUT - I will ask:

Who are the spiritual and physical descendants of Yitzak? ALL twelve sons/tribes, and those who might want to be "grafted in"?

Who thus, are the "lost sheep of the House of Israel," that Yahushua said He came to?

And if we CHOOSE to be 'grafted in' - having been EXILED for CAUSE, then "what is our Rightful Service?"

 

[Mark C]

PS> This is an easy, and good, example:

We all agree, to pick a random example, that God told the Israelites to take a tithe of their grain to the temple every year (Deuteronomy 14:2). That instruction never alters. The question is, however, whether it applies to us today, and if so how.

You simply can NOT do it. Period. For a number of obvious reasons (to those who have read that "Old" stuff...)

So don't sweat it! (But - it is useful to at least KNOW about what He asks!)

 

[Mark C]

I just can’t square that with Acts 15 and Galatians. There has to be a way for gentiles to not become Israelites or the whole thing falls apart.

At the risk of further scoffing and ridicule, I will give a serious answer:

THAT is what being "grafted in" is about. THAT is why the understanding of YHVH's TWO whoring 'wives' is so VITAL to our understanding! BOTH committed adultery/idolatry. BOTH are in exile.

That is why the "Four Minimum Necessary Conditions" to just "clean up" the former-gentiles ENOUGH so they could go into the place where Torah was taught, in every city, on every Sabbath, was unanimously accepted as a great solution back in Acts 15. It was about making sure the new 'followers of The Way' wouldn't "bring pork chops to the pot luck," and get themselves kicked out of the synagogue before they learned just a few basics.

Ezekiel's Two Sticks (wives!) are STILL not ECHAD!

BUT - the Root (ha-torah) supports the branches. You must not build upon the sand, but the Rock. And He never changed "one yod or tiddle" of His Word, Written for our blessing.

 

[PeteR]

That

 

[PeteR]

And for emphasis: There is NO covenant with Gentiles. None! Zero! Zilch! Nada!

The 'new' (or, more correctly, renewed) covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-12.

Being grafted in through Messiah males you part of one or the other... but both have one King and one Torah.

Shabbat Shalom.

 

[Mark C]

Do you know where the following statement can be verified in the Old Testament: "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man, but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.” (Matthew 15:11)?

Are you kidding? There are MANY! Numbers 30 (vows), prohibitions against bearing false witness, "joining with or following a crowd," to do evil...and so on. It's the part that claims "thus He declared ALL FOODS CLEAN" in some HORRIBLE translations of Mark 7 that is a bold lie.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Prophecy is only tricky when we cease to read it through the lens of Torah.

That’s just not true. Generations of knowledgeable Jewish scholars read the prophesies of the Messiah through nothing but the lens of Torah, they still weren’t expecting Jesus. Your theology has to square with what we’re told in scripture.

Passover and circumcision are absolutely required

Show me? There’s no way to square that with Galatians. Paul absolutely tells the Galatians that there is no need for them to get circumcised. He doesn’t say, worry about that later or we’ll get around to it. He says don’t worry about it. For you to be right then we have to throw out the entire book of Galatians. I can’t go there.

once meeting minimum standards would go to the synagogue on Shabbat and learn 'Moses

You’re going to have to walk me through that one brother, I just don’t see that in the text. It is laid out as an option if they want it.

Neither Paul, the Apostles,

I’m with you so far, they don’t have that authority…..

or even Jesus had the authority

And we went off the rails. Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth. Here’s the problem with us trying to out limits on what God can do. You can not make this statement. You can claim that Jesus wouldn’t do that but you can claim that he couldn’t.

Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the

And here’s an example of prophecy not completely lining up with expectations, we were expecting Elijah and got John the Baptist.

 

[The Revolting Man]

So where’s the command to keep sabbath for the gentiles in this verse? Where’s the command for the gentiles to even go to synagogue and learn about Moses?

But wouldn’t such a command be a new command, since there’s no command prior to this for anyone to go to synagogue? Come on Mark, you’re not even making this hard.

A command to go to synagogue and for gentiles to keep sabbath would be a new command and your entire argument falls apart. Idiocy is right.

Idiocy. (emphasis added!)


So read Acts 15:20 AND THEN 21. It should be obvious, but requires at least a modicum of honesty.

 

[Mark C]

And yet there’s no compulsion to become circumcised, which is necessary to be a part of Israel and to approach the Passover, which is a command for all of Israel.

Good grief! The Creator of the Universe and Author of Scripture does not COERCE. He gives us a CHOICE, to obey, or not.

There are simply consequences.

You don't have to slice on your willy. It's not a "prerequisite" for His Salvation (Yahu-shua). But it is a sign of obedience.

Do, or do not.


PS> And, yes - if I had a son tomorrow, he'd be circumcised on the eighth day.

 

[The Revolting Man]

And for emphasis: There is NO covenant with Gentiles. None! Zero! Zilch! Nada!

The 'new' (or, more correctly, renewed) covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-12.

Very true but neither Judah or Israel has a covenant right now either. They won’t have a covenant until Jeremiah 31:31 is fulfilled.

Remember that the old covenant was hingent on the Tabernacle and the Ark of the Covenant. Those things haven’t been in place for a very long time. Israel is a divorced woman right now with no covering (covenant).

Being grafted in through Messiah males you part of one or the other... but both have one King and one Torah.

True but you know as well as I do that that one Torah has many categories and all of those categories have different requirements on them. Priests are treated differently than non-priests. Some priests are treated differently than other priests, and so on and so on.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Good grief! The Creator of the Universe and Author of Scripture does not COERCE. He gives us a CHOICE, to obey, or not.

There are simply consequences.

You don't have to slice on your willy. It's not a "prerequisite" for His Salvation (Yahu-shua). But it is a sign of obedience.

Do, or do not.


PS> And, yes - if I had a son tomorrow, he'd be circumcised on the eighth day.

There is no command for gentiles to be circumcised. You know this or you would have quoted it already.

 

[The Revolting Man]

to just "clean up" the former-gentiles ENOUGH so they could go into the place where Torah was taught, in every city, on every Sabbath, was unanimously accepted as a great solution back in Acts 15

You see this is fantastic! I missed that verse! This will solve everything! Thank you!

What’s the reference? What verse says this?

 

[Mark C]

That’s just not true. Generations of knowledgeable Jewish scholars read the prophesies of the Messiah through nothing but the lens of Torah, they still weren’t expecting Jesus. Your theology has to square with what we’re told in scripture.

Wow. Just Wow.

They weren't expecting a "jesus" who "did away with the Law," for sure.

But MANY of the 'ancient sages' expected not one, but TWO, iterations of an annointed Messiah - "Machiach ben David," the conquering king, and "Mashiach ben Yosef," the suffering servant.

Those (like Shaul, obviously) who were too embroiled in Oral Law BS to see the Bigger Picture, missed His coming as Mashiach ben Yosef. Perhaps they just focused on the threat to their power base.

But they weren't alone in that oversight: HaSatan, the Bad Guy, missed it too!

 

[Mark C]

You see this is fantastic! I missed that verse! This will solve everything! Thank you!

What’s the reference? What verse says this?

See? You won't read. I already told you, and I already suggested exactly what just happened.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Wow. Just Wow.

They weren't expecting a "jesus" who "did away with the Law," for sure.

But MANY of the 'ancient sages' expected not one, but TWO, iterations of an annointed Messiah - "Machiach ben David," the conquering king, and "Mashiach ben Yosef," the suffering servant.

Those (like Shaul, obviously) who were too embroiled in Oral Law BS to see the Bigger Picture, missed His coming as Mashiach ben Yosef. Perhaps they just focused on the threat to their power base.

But they weren't alone in that oversight: HaSatan, the Bad Guy, missed it too!

So you’re agreeing with me?

 

[Mark C]

PS> "For those joining in late..."

Meat - Why wouldn’t God alter His commands?

Remember everyone, this is NOT a place to debate whether or not to follow Torah at all. @The Revolting Man is asking about the details of which laws we are to follow, specifically whether some of the instructions for us in the present day may differ from the instructions given to the Israelites...

biblicalfamilies.org

 

[Mark C]

Show me? There’s no way to square that with Galatians. Paul absolutely tells the Galatians that there is no need for them to get circumcised.

Make this a new thread. But let Pete start it, I don't want the censorship.

But Galatians is arguably the "most twisted Book" in all of the Bible.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Think about this men, I’d God can’t alter His commands then we can’t justify keeping Torah at all. As @Mark C has so helpfully pointed out, we haven’t been able to keep Torah since the Ark disappeared, hundreds of years before Christ. If God can’t alter His Laws then this is a dead religion that hasn’t been practiced since 586 B.C. at the MOST recent.

That’s 2,500 years. At some point we have to ask if all of those generations are just damned. Or we have say that God made some other accommodation for them; i.e. altered His Laws. No matter what option you take, things are not as they were and haven’t been for a very long time.

They certainly aren’t as Moses described them.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Make this a new thread. But let Pete start it, I don't want the censorship.

But Galatians is arguably the "most twisted Book" in all of the Bible.

Why don’t you start it? It’s your thesis. Of course that would require you taking a stance and voicing a firm opinion and that exposes you to being proven wrong and that is your greatest fear.

 

[Mark C]

Why don’t you start it? It’s your thesis

Which is a stupid question, and you know the answer.

'Cause you'd torpedo, ridicule, sneer, and distort. And side-track. So there's no point. But I would if I thought the ghetto was a safe place for iron to sharpen iron.