Meat Why wouldn’t God alter His commands?

[FollowingHim]

Remember everyone, this is NOT a place to debate whether or not to follow Torah at all. @The Revolting Man is asking about the details of which laws we are to follow, specifically whether some of the instructions for us in the present day may differ from the instructions given to the Israelites at the time of Moses. That is a sensible discussion to have, something everyone considers on some level. Nobody here is sacrificing bullocks on a stone altar - we know there is a time and a place for everything. The detail of precisely what is the time and the place for each thing is an entirely reasonable and even necessary discussion within the context of trying to keep Torah. This is a discussion between Torah keepers about the detail of how to do Torah keeping. Don't take this as an opportunity to argue against the entire concept, this is not the place for that.

 

[Earth_is-]

Ok, you posted a lot of scripture (actually pretty standard ones that say we are to follow an old Covenant form of commandments) but you didn't seem to answer, how do you know that you are rightly dividing the Word? What makes your interpretation better than someone else's interpretation?

Has all been fulfilled? Has he returned? Are the Heavens and Earth still here?

Luke 16:16-17
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

So who is telling the truth? Is the law done away with? Is heaven and earth still here?

Did the Messiah sin?

1 Peter 2:22
“Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;

What is sin? According to John (1 John 3:4), sin is transgression of the law. Do you know what's written in the law? It is sin to add or take away from the law. This is what the Pharisees were doing (with their talmudic teachings) - they were adding and taking away from torah. The Creator in the flesh rebuked them for it. Through their traditions of men they were placing a heavy burden on the people, and nullifying the commandments of the Most High.

Deut 4:2
Do not add to or subtract from these commands I am giving you. Just obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you.

If Yahushua Hamashiach added or took away from the law, then he would had sinned. Thereby, he would not had been the Messiah. If you want to call him a liar, or a sinner that's on you.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I assume this is the passage you're referring to:

Acts 15:19-21
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

They key is that they're "turning." So these are the minimum (repent) requirements for gentiles turning to the Creator.

Does this mean that as a believer in the Messiah - I can't eat blood, but I can murder?

These are obviously "starting point" commandments. But why were these four specifically chosen from the Law of Moses?

Because the gentiles were worshipping pagan gods, and James knew what kind of things were going on inside those pagan temples:

1. Worship of idols.
2. Strangulation of animals for sacrifice to keep the blood internal.
3. Drinking of sacrificed animal blood.
4. Sexual intercourse with pagan temple prostitutes

Those 4 commandments for "gentiles turning" means they can not return back to their pagan temples. Instead, they are expected to be sanctified by the truth - the word is truth. Because the law of Moses (Truth) - was being preached on every sabbath in every city.

John 17:17 (Yahushua's prayer for future believers):
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

Listening to the Law of Moses being read on Sabbath = being sanctified by the truth. Ephesians 5:25-26 -- The Messiah washes his church through the cleansing of the Word - making her Holy and Clean.

Good question about murder, the rest of your response is silly. There’s no time limit set on how long someone would take to move past Acts 15 . We have to assume they can stay there.

 

[Earth_is-]

Good question about murder, the rest of your response is silly. There’s no time limit set on how long someone would take to move past Acts 15 . We have to assume they can stay there.

Acts 18:11
So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching the word of God among the Corinthians.

It takes a year and a half to teach the gentiles 4 simple commandments?

 

[FollowingHim]

As far as I can see, people are largely talking past each other. Because there is fundamental agreement on the two basic premises.

Firstly, God never changes:

He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

We all agree that God’s Word is perfect.

And His instructions never change. The fact that He told the Israelites, through Moses, to do X as recorded in Torah, NEVER CHANGES. That is a constant fact. The instruction itself never alters, because God's Word is perfect.

Secondly, God can give different instructions to different people in different circumstances:

He told someone to do something in one set of circumstances and something else in another

Evidently I don't see His obviously task-specific instructions for a specific set of journeys as anything even remotely akin to "adding to" or "subtracting from" His commands.

The disagreement is ONLY about when and how these two principles are applied. We all agree, to pick a random example, that God told the Israelites to take a tithe of their grain to the temple every year (Deuteronomy 14:2). That instruction never alters. The question is, however, whether it applies to us today, and if so how.

To take it back to the original point of this thread, we all actually agree that God can give an instruction to one person, and then later give a different instruction on that same matter to another person. In principle, there is nothing wrong with this (as everyone commenting on the example text presented by @NickF has stated one way or another, including @Mark C).

So surely we all agree that, in principle (whether or not He has), God could give one instruction to the Israelites through Moses, and then a different instruction to other people later, without contradicting the fact that He never changes and His instructions never change either?

 

[steve]

Remember, the sabbath was never a command for gentiles to begin with. You trying to force it on them is also adding to scripture.

That right there is some industrial strength legalism.

Oh wait, you mean gentiles as in people who have not become believers in Yeshua and his teachings. Got it.

 

[The Revolting Man]

That right there is some industrial strength legalism

Thank you! I’m trying but I frequently fail at it. I don’t know why it took me so long to figure out legalism was the right way to approach the Law but I’m a little a dense that way.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Oh wait, you mean gentiles as in people who have not become believers in Yeshua and his teachings. Got it.

I just can’t square that with Acts 15 and Galatians. There has to be a way for gentiles to not become Israelites or the whole thing falls apart.

We see this in the Old Testament too, there’s no indication that David’s ally in Lebanon became an Israelite and started keeping Torah.

 

[steve]

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

If you are still a gentile and not grafted in, that may be where the problem lies.

These last sentences in bold are not my desire, but they won’t quit being bold.

 

[PeteR]

I’ve suggested that it means individual portions of the Law can be fulfilled and that portion “passes away”. I apply this at bare minimum to the Tabernacle, priesthood and sacrifices.

So, you and Christendom would argue that it is passed away... Scripture clearly prophesies it is in our future...

Which is it?

 

[PeteR]

Good question about murder, the rest of your response is silly. There’s no time limit set on how long someone would take to move past Acts 15 . We have to assume they can stay there.

Sure.. and br LEAST in the Kingdom.... if that's what you teach, be prepared for consequences.

 

[PeteR]

I just can’t square that with Acts 15 and Galatians. There has to be a way for gentiles to not become Israelites or the whole thing falls apart.

All of Ephesians 2, but salient quote is: 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—
12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

This is simple stuff! You cease to be a Gentile when you are joined to Messiah... but now, regardless of your origins, you are part of the His People. You are Israelite!

We see this in the Old Testament too, there’s no indication that David’s ally in Lebanon became an Israelite and started keeping Torah.

Numbers 15:
14‘If an alien sojourns with you, or one who may be among you throughout your generations, and he wishes to make an offering by fire, as a soothing aroma to the LORD, just as you do so he shall do.
15‘As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the LORD.
16‘There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.’”

Zec, your idea of different standards is patently false.

 

[Transformator Reformator]

If Yahushua Hamashiach added or took away from the law, then he would had sinned. Thereby, he would not had been the Messiah. If you want to call him a liar, or a sinner that's on you.

Do you know where the following statement can be verified in the Old Testament: "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man, but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.” (Matthew 15:11)?

If his Word can be changed - then his character can be changed. And if his character can be changed - then how can we discern from the real and the fake? Also if his Word can be changed - what if he decides to completely wipe off every one of us - and not fulfill any of his final prophecies?

Can Judas Iscariot accuse Yeshua that His character has changed based on following promise, “Verily I say unto you, that ye that have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit on the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matthew 19:28)?

 

[The Revolting Man]

Acts 18:11
So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching the word of God among the Corinthians.

It takes a year and a half to teach the gentiles 4 simple commandments?

First off the instruction to avoid fornication is a reference to all of Old Testament sexual Law so it’s a bit more than four commands, once again you haven’t thought through what you’re saying.

But Paul had a lot to say about a lot of things. Scholars spend whole careers on just aspects of his ministry. A year and a half is not that long in comparison.

 

[The Revolting Man]

So, you and Christendom would argue that it is passed away... Scripture clearly prophesies it is in our future...

Which is it?

Prophesy is an extremely tricky thing. It never looks like what we think it will. Adam didn’t die in the moment. Nineveh was destroyed, eventually. The Messiah came and no one was expecting Him.

Prophesy is true and it will be fulfilled. It’s a fallacy to think we know exactly what that will look like.

John the Beloved was told he wouldn’t die until he saw Christ’s return. I don’t think even he thought that would look like the Revelation. Every word has to be true or none of it is. The prophesies in Isaiah and Ezekiel are true. And Galatians is true . We have to find the way for it to reconcile.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Sure.. and br LEAST in the Kingdom.... if that's what you teach, be prepared for consequences.

You would have to show me this in scripture.

 

[The Revolting Man]

This is simple stuff! You cease to be a Gentile when you are joined to Messiah... but now, regardless of your origins, you are part of the His People. You are Israelite!

And yet there’s no compulsion to become circumcised, which is necessary to be a part of Israel and to approach the Passover, which is a command for all of Israel.

Zec, your idea of different standards is patently false.

If it is then it’s Torah keepers who are in the wrong. It is clear that neither Paul or the Apostles put any onus on gentiles to become circumcised and start keeping Torah. If there is only one standard then it’s the new standard of Acts 15 and you and I are in deep error.

You can’t act like passages specifically dealing with the controversy of gentiles keeping Torah don’t take precedence on whether or not gentiles should keep Torah. This is the controversy they were dealing with.

The solution they arrived at was that there is no compulsion for gentiles to get circumcised and keep Torah. This is explicit, undeniable truth. If you deny this then you deny the New Testament.

So if there is only one standard then it’s Acts 15.

Remember, no one has heard from the Jewish God in 2,300 years. He stopped talking to us after Malachi. If the New Testament is false then we have (allegedly) heard from Zeus and Odin more recently than Jehovah. And there hasn’t been a propitiation for sins since the ark disappeared, whenever that was. Without a New Testament we’re practicing a dead religion, and a stupid one since we should just be honest and be Jews.

 

[PeteR]

Prophesy is an extremely tricky thing. It never looks like what we think it will. Adam didn’t die in the moment. Nineveh was destroyed, eventually. The Messiah came and no one was expecting Him.

Prophesy is true and it will be fulfilled. It’s a fallacy to think we know exactly what that will look like.

Prophecy is only tricky when we cease to read it through the lens of Torah. Thank the whore church that rejects the commandments of God for their spiritualizing or explaining away many texts.

You would have to show me this in scripture.

Matthew 5:19

And yet there’s no compulsion to become circumcised, which is necessary to be a part of Israel and to approach the Passover, which is a command for all of Israel.

Passover and circumcision are absolutely required... faith in Messiah is the beginning. It is the payment for sin. Once forgiven, we begin obeying... Acts 15:21 is clear... those turning to God, once meeting minimum standards would go to the synagogue on Shabbat and learn 'Moses.' Except Christians stand,at the door and justify lawlessness making them seven times the son of hell they were before... now holding the text they deny its authority.

If it is then it’s Torah keepers who are in the wrong. It is clear that neither Paul or the Apostles put any onus on gentiles to become circumcised and start keeping Torah. If there is only one standard then it’s the new standard of Acts 15 and you and I are in deep error.

False. You refuse to study or acknowledge that Paul is often speaking against proselyte conversion and oral law. We've had this discussion. Neither Paul, the Apostles, or even Jesus had the authority to overturn the Torah.

So if there is only one standard then it’s Acts 15.

Nope. The standard is, was, and always will be Torah.

Remember, no one has heard from the Jewish God in 2,300 years. He stopped talking to us after Malachi.

Then listen to the last thing He said...

Malach 4:4“Remember the law Torah of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.
5“Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.
6“He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.”

 

[Mark C]

...how do you know that you are rightly dividing the Word? What makes your interpretation better than someone else's interpretation?

If He says "don't add to" or "subtract from" His Written commandments (and I don't care whether you diss-'em by calling them "Old" or not!) - and you DO, then YOU are NOT even READING, much less 'rightly dividing' it.

And that is why Yahushua called those who did "hypocrites!" They should have known better.

 

[Mark C]

Keeping the sabbath does not make it into Acts 15 as one of the things that must be done to be a member of the ecclesia.

Idiocy. (emphasis added!)

Your problem is with the New Testament account....

So read Acts 15:20 AND THEN 21. It should be obvious, but requires at least a modicum of honesty.