The Pharisees were not the only group in the New Testament but you may recall that Saul was a strict Torah keeper while he was killing Christians. You really don’t know scripture do you?
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Meat Why wouldn’t God alter His commands?
- Thread starter The Revolting Man
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Hoist the Colours
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I do but I'm not exactly sure I'm welcome here.
I know how this feels.
Formally, Cap
I suppose I need approval to be here. But. I have an answer for your question.
Point of clarification for me
I'm not saying that Christ fulfilling the Law means that we are no longer required to follow God's instructions. There is much that indicates that we are supposed to.
I am suggesting the thing required before a single jot or tittle can change (Matthew 5:17-19 all being accomplished) seems like it has.
At the very least, it seems like our relationship to the Law has changed.
Fire away.
A supportable position, how do you decide which Laws to follow and which are passed a way?
Chick fil a is opened on Saturday. Closed on Sunday. Many other businesses (even Christian) follow that same operation schedule.
For the western Christian world - night clubs are most popular on Saturday night (Sabbath). But usually closed on Sunday (non-sabbath).
Many banks are open every single day except for Sunday (or holidays).
I can keep giving examples after examples.
It's not sin to go to your church on Sunday - you can go every single day - including on the Sabbath. That's not the discussion. The discussion is that Christians are not taught that the 7th day is the day of rest - the Sabbath. They have dis-regarded the 4th commandment.
Is Chik Fil A a part of the ecclesia? Are you serious with this?
SATURDAY NIGHT IS NOT THE SABBATH! Unless you’re changing the Sabbath in which case why can’t Chik Fil A change it?
Is your bank a religious institution? Does it claim to be following God’s Laws? Is this the best you got? You can’t bank on Sunday so clearly Constantine was a part of a satanic cabal to change God’s Law?
Surely you can do better than that?
He was a 'strict torah keeper' like Biden is a strict constitutionalist. And he was 'enforcing' a whole lot of stuff that was 'nomos' of men, not YHVH. I bet he'd have made a good 'moderator.'
But this is why you are an asshole:
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Hoist the Colours
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"Lest anyone misunderstand, we are saved by faith through grace to -->DO<-- good works prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. I.e ‘walk as Yeshua our Messiah walked.’ (1 John 2:3-7)" from PeterR emphasis mine.
Some take scripture like this, and interpret it the way they see it fits thier beliefs. They use versions of the Word that appeal to them and try and teach the ones that promote the Old Covenant, when it is the New Covenant and the Commandments of Christ, through the New Covenant that we are to follow. They for some reason don't trust Jesus Christ and HIS Commandments. The Old Covenant says stone an adulterer, the New Covenant through Christ says, forgive an adulterer. One can't forgive a sin if they don't know the Law that created the sin, so the Law is important, BUT...
Which Commandment are we to follow?
Which Commandment do Torah people want you to follow?
Which family do I want to learn from?
Is it a family that teaches from the Old Law or one that teaches from the New Law in Christ?
WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH THROUGH GRACE and that is it, there is nothing we can "DO" to save ourselves, OR help GOD to save us.
Any reference in the New Covenant that directs us to follow Commandments is directing us to follow the Commandments of Christ, through the Holy Spirit. And not some Law in "Leviticus", or wherever, but that same Law filter through the Son of God and His saving Grace.
This is the foundation of the Torah thought. We have to help God save us.
The ceremonial Laws and the Priesthood Laws have been fulfilled in Christ. The Moral Laws have been upgraded.
Sabbath, which ever day is fullfilled in Christ. We enter our sabbath rest when we enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ.
BF has come a long way to have this discussion, thank you for letting me participate. There is only one group of believers, those who follow Christ, THAT'S IT. There are many forms of worship, Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, Torah, others, that individuals can display for themselves and their families, and it is a private thing. The Law of Christ is the Law that matters, and applicable today.
Do Christians work on Saturday? Do they go to the shopping malls/restaurants/movie theaters on Saturday? Do they go to the night clubs on Saturday? The answer is that they do. Why? The reason is due to the traditions of men, and not the commandments from the Most High. You can not find in the Scripture where the 4th commandment was either done away with, or changed.
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Works associated with Grace is based on what you do with your faith. Peter displayed his faith by his works, and that work was getting out of the boat. Not following an Old Covenant Law. Jesus gave him a command to follow, and Peter did what he was commanded. But, he failed and needed to be saved because we have to keep our eyes on Christ to be saved, not a set of Old Covenant Laws.
Being saved by faith through grace is a true statement. But your problem is that you haven't rightly divided the Word:
Romans 6:15
Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16 Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. (1 John 3:4 is the definition of sin - it's transgression of the law)
John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
The Savior paid the price for our lawlessness. He expects believers to be sanctified by the Word of Truth (John 17:17), so we're no longer practicing lawlessness; but instead start becoming righteous. The Creator's definition of "Righteous" are those that put his torah in their hearts (Isaiah 51:7).
The New Covenant:
Hebrews 10:15
And the Holy Spirit also testifies that this is so. For he says, 16 “This is the new covenant I will make with my people on that day, says the LORD: I will put my laws (torah) in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” 17 Then he says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.” 18 And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices.
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Try Hebrews 4.
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How do you know that you are rightly dividing the Word?
Your statement contradicts the Word of Truth:
Psalm 19:7
The law (torah) of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
The author of Hebrews warns about losing your place in that rest - if you follow in the disobedient ways of the (majority) of the Israelites when they were taken out of Egypt:
Hebrews 11:4
Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
So don't be dis-obedient to the Creator like they were. But be like a Joshua or Caleb. They made it into the promise land through their faith and obedience.
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The message has been consistent from Genesis to Revelation.
Romans 3:31 NIV
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Abram believed in the Creator:
Genesis 15:6
Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Which lead to him choosing to walk in his ways through faith and love:
Genesis 26:5
I will do this because Abraham listened to me and obeyed all my requirements, commands, decrees, and instructions.”
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was angry at the woman and declared war against the rest of her children—all who keep God’s commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus.
Isaiah 8:20
To the law (torah) and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Matthew 5:19
So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
It's pleasing to the Father in Heaven to walk in his ways:
Psalm 119:165
Great peace have those who love your law (torah), and nothing can make them stumble.
Proverbs 3:1
My son, do not forget my law (torah), But let your heart keep my commands
Pretty much all of Psalm 119 I recommend reading. It's an exaltation of the Creator's Instructions (torah).
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Ok, you posted a lot of scripture (actually pretty standard ones that say we are to follow an old Covenant form of commandments) but you didn't seem to answer, how do you know that you are rightly dividing the Word? What makes your interpretation better than someone else's interpretation?
Your problem is with the New Testament account, not me..!..
You are indicting all of Christendom for not meeting a standard it it not at all clear that you understand.
Keeping the sabbath does not make it into Acts 15 as one of the things that must be done to be a member of the ecclesia.
You are adding to scripture. Remember, the sabbath was never a command for gentiles to begin with. You trying to force it on them is also adding to scripture.
You don’t know what you don’t know but you still talk like you’re an appointed judge.
And none of your quoted scriptures say what you’re claiming. We all agree that God’s Word is perfect. What we’re discussing is whether He ever alters His perfect Word into a still equally perfect update.
Do you have any scripture for that? If not you’re wasting all of our time.
I assume this is the passage you're referring to:
Acts 15:19-21
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
The key is that they're "turning." So these are the minimum (repent) requirements for gentiles turning to the Creator.
Does this mean that as a believer in the Messiah - I can't eat blood, but I can murder?
These are obviously "starting point" commandments. But why were these four specifically chosen from the Law of Moses?
Because the gentiles were worshipping pagan gods, and James knew what kind of things were going on inside those pagan temples:
1. Worship of idols.
2. Strangulation of animals for sacrifice to keep the blood internal.
3. Drinking of sacrificed animal blood.
4. Sexual intercourse with pagan temple prostitutes
Those 4 commandments for "gentiles turning" means they can not return back to their pagan temples. Instead, they are expected to be sanctified by the truth - the word is truth. Because the law of Moses (Truth) - was being preached on every sabbath in every city.
John 17:17 (Yahushua's prayer for future believers):
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
Listening to the Law of Moses being read on Sabbath = being sanctified by the truth. Ephesians 5:25-26 -- The Messiah washes his church through the cleansing of the Word - making her Holy and Clean.
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