Hey now. At least the funny memes are funny. But you're right. You have my blessing to delete itSays the person who started the "Just Funny Memes" thread.
Hey now. At least the funny memes are funny. But you're right. You have my blessing to delete itSays the person who started the "Just Funny Memes" thread.
How do you come up with this? I was born a Gentile, I was called as a Gentile. I'm to remain as a Gentile. (1 Cor 7:20) I am grafted onto the true vine, not the vine of Israel that is currently laying in the dirt awaiting Jesus grafting them back in. Romans 11. Gentiles are not, absolutely not grafted into Israel. Or Paul is a liar.We're justified purely by faith in the Messiah - not by works so no man can boast. We're justified by his precious blood he spilled for us - and through his resurrection we have the washing of sins, a new heart, and grafting into the House of Jacob. As Paul says - "We were formerly gentile." We become grafted into the Olive Tree - The House of Jacob (Israel) - one of the 12 tribes.
If you're a Christian that keeps the commandments - then you're no longer a gentile. But an Israelite:
We are in the reign of Christ right now, there is no continuing city.The Northern Kingdom was in exile for roughly 800 years. They were given a certificate of divorce, and scattered throughout the nations. That's a lot of generations of people walking through life with no hope of reconciliation to their Creator. When the Son of the Most High came - he came for those lost sheep of Israel. To reconcile them back into the House of Jacob - through his precious blood and resurrection.
But what about the Israelites born after the exile, but before the Messiah? The Valley of Dry Bones in Ezekiel 37 - talks about a resurrection of Israel - not in glorified bodies - but flesh and bone. Then a remnant come back to the land - in the 2nd Exodus.
This corresponds well to the "rest of the dead" mentioned in Revelation 20 - which occurs after the Millennium Reign. Since Satan would be given authority to deceive all the nations - we can then expect (in one way or another) for him to re-introduce the same pagan practices/cults that got the Israelites kicked out in the first place. Based on the scripture - most will continue to be deceived:
Isaiah 10:21
A remnant will return--a remnant of Jacob--to the Mighty Elohim. Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will return.
Isaiah 65:8
For just as good grapes are found among a cluster of bad ones (and someone will say, ‘Don’t throw them all away—some of those grapes are good!’), so I will not destroy all Israel. For I still have true servants there. 9 I will preserve a remnant of the people of Israel.
Ezekiel 36:24
For I will gather you up from all the nations and bring you home again to your land.
The entire chapter of Ezekiel 38 - goes into detail about Gog/Magog. The prophet says this won't occur until far into the future. After Israel is back living in peace in her own land brought back from exile. The nations of the earth will decide to attack Israel. But when they attack - the Heavenly Father sends burning sulfur on them. Compare that with Revelation 20:
Revelation 20:7-9
Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of Elohim’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Ezekiel 38:8-9
A long time from now you (Gog) will be called into action. In the distant future you will swoop down on the land of Israel, which will be enjoying peace after recovering from war and after its people have returned from many lands to the mountains of Israel. 9 You and all your allies—a vast and awesome army—will roll down on them like a storm and cover the land like a cloud.
So it's very interesting that the war mentioned in Revelation 20 - Gog and Magog - seems to be the same exact one being described in Ezekiel 38. To say that Ezekiel 38 has already been fulfilled - that would mean that the new exodus has already occurred as well. The new Exodus would bring his sheep back from all the nations - and bring them back into the land. Perhaps this "camp of the saints" and "his beloved city" from Revelation 20 is the re-gathering of the House of Jacob from throughout the nations?
If you’re keeping his commandments out of love and faith in the Messiah - then you “were a gentile.”Since we're doing a pointless debate...
How do you come up with this? I was born a Gentile, I was called as a Gentile. I'm to remain as a Gentile. (1 Cor 7:20) I am grafted onto the true vine, not the vine of Israel that is currently laying in the dirt awaiting Jesus grafting them back in. Romans 11. Gentiles are not, absolutely not grafted into Israel. Or Paul is a liar.
Am I misunderstanding your assertion? Or are you misunderstanding scripture?
Well said and simply illustrated for all of us watching at home.Why oh why should anybody desire or seek to be grafted onto Israel?
Romans 11
New American Standard Bible 1995
11 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”
9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
Will their fulfillment be future tense...
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Is Israel Holy? Nope. I don't want to be grafted onto an unholy branch laying in the dirt.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
The olive tree is not Israel, because it's a branch.
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, (That's Israel for those of you following at home) He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Whom is cut off? Israel... Why in the world should any Gentile aspire or desire, seek to be grafted onto an unholy branch laying in the dirt?
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
I just grafted a pear tree today. I cut off the top of the unfruitful pear and threw it on the ground. It's going to be trash... But here's the cool thing. I could go back over to my in-laws tonight, grab one of the branches of that unfruitful tree and GRAFT IT BACK ON. That's pretty cool.
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Glory and praise to the Most High that one day he will graft back onto The True Vine, The Root, Israel who are shut up in disobedience, broken off, and waiting on their salvation when they will be grafted back in. Thank the Most High I being a Gentile am grafted onto the True Vine Jesus. That's where I can partake of holiness imparted to me from that holy rootstock.
For those of you not knowledgeable about grafting, scion, rootstocks etc... You graft something you want to produce onto a strong rootstock that will impart resistance to diseases, that will push more life into the scion and build it up. You use a special rootstock that has the qualities you need in the scionwood. The scion would not be healthy, it would die if grown on it's own roots. It would succumb to disease and die. It would not produce the fruit desired if grown on it's own merit. It needs the vigor of the roots to make it glorious. You don't graft onto something with no roots and expect it to produce anything. So if Israel is a branch broken off of the tree/roots, you cannot be grafted onto that branch and produce anything living. That's literally the explanation of this chapter. So either Paul is a liar, or nobody gets grafted onto Israel and expects life. The only fruit you can expect from a sheared off pear laying on the ground is a dried up withered branch good for burning in a firepit.
The Messiah said -- "I only came for the lost sheep of Israel."Well said and simply illustrated for all of us watching at home.
Jesus is Israel.Why oh why should anybody desire or seek to be grafted onto Israel?
Romans 11
New American Standard Bible 1995
11 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”
9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
Will their fulfillment be future tense...
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Is Israel Holy? Nope. I don't want to be grafted onto an unholy branch laying in the dirt.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
The olive tree is not Israel, because it's a branch.
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, (That's Israel for those of you following at home) He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Whom is cut off? Israel... Why in the world should any Gentile aspire or desire, seek to be grafted onto an unholy branch laying in the dirt?
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
I just grafted a pear tree today. I cut off the top of the unfruitful pear and threw it on the ground. It's going to be trash... But here's the cool thing. I could go back over to my in-laws tonight, grab one of the branches of that unfruitful tree and GRAFT IT BACK ON. That's pretty cool.
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Glory and praise to the Most High that one day he will graft back onto The True Vine, The Root, Israel who are shut up in disobedience, broken off, and waiting on their salvation when they will be grafted back in. Thank the Most High I being a Gentile am grafted onto the True Vine Jesus. That's where I can partake of holiness imparted to me from that holy rootstock.
For those of you not knowledgeable about grafting, scion, rootstocks etc... You graft something you want to produce onto a strong rootstock that will impart resistance to diseases, that will push more life into the scion and build it up. You use a special rootstock that has the qualities you need in the scionwood. The scion would not be healthy, it would die if grown on it's own roots. It would succumb to disease and die. It would not produce the fruit desired if grown on it's own merit. It needs the vigor of the roots to make it glorious. You don't graft onto something with no roots and expect it to produce anything. So if Israel is a branch broken off of the tree/roots, you cannot be grafted onto that branch and produce anything living. That's literally the explanation of this chapter. So either Paul is a liar, or nobody gets grafted onto Israel and expects life. The only fruit you can expect from a sheared off pear laying on the ground is a dried up withered branch good for burning in a firepit.
100% - you're either grafted into the House of Jacob or you're still a gentile. There's no in-between.Jesus is Israel.
Exodus 4:22
“And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:”
You would want to be grafted into Israel because that is whom the promises pertain too, through Issac. Without promises we have no hope. We don't want to be grafted into the synagog of Satan. We want to be the holy nation, the Israel of God if we want to be in Christ Jesus.
There is no Jew(Israelite) or Greek.A true Christian is a true Israelite.
Correct - just as the prophets foretold:There is no Jew(Israelite) or Greek.
You don’t have the chops to actually refute. Just more cherry picked out of context verses, no rebuttal of clear written word. Typical. Can’t say I’m surprised. Like I said… nobody ever gives an answer.
People these days wrongly think Gentile means a non Israelite. Yet consider Genesis 48:19But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Ezekiel 37:1113 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Paul also wrote Romans 2:1428 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
YAH willing - this helps you understand it a little better at least:You apparently have answers that I do not. Exegete Romans 11. Explain to me what that chapter is saying verse by verse please.
You mean THIS question?Nobody has given me an answer on the above question. Nobody has the stones to do so.
A: Read the blessings and promises to Abraham.Why oh why should anybody desire or seek to be grafted onto Israel?
I am speaking to you who are Gentiles...
Not all of Israel was cut off - that’s a deception. He kept a remnant chosen by grace through faith.Where’s the rest of the chapter? Only a partial exegesis? And why the immediate assumption that you must be grafted into Israel for salvation? What about the part where Israel is a branch cut off while Gentiles are grafted in? I read your partial exegesis, still waiting on the whole chapter to be explained.