800 Years in Exile

[FollowingHim]

I must point out that this is straying dangerously close to advocating for or against Torah keeping for all believers, which is a topic we have chosen to keep off this forum due to past issues. The line is hard to define, so it's wherever @The Revolting Man or I arbitrarily decide is the line. I'm sure you appreciate me clarifying this so well.

I'll just point out that it is very easy to selectively point out those passages which support your predetermined viewpoint, and ignore those which disagree. For instance:

Paul was still practicing circumcision. He even circumcised Timothy.

Ignores that he did NOT circumcise Titus (Galatians 2:3). Of course, the other side to this argument could focus on that and ignore that he did circumcise Timothy. While a correct understanding of this issue must be consistent with both events, not only one of them.

Something to bear in mind for this entire discussion, whether or not we have it here - bear in mind wherever you're discussing this. This discussion usually ends up consisting of a debate where one side puts up one set of proof-texts, and the other puts up a different set that seem to contradict them. Only once your view is in agreement with every single text might you have properly understood what is being said.

 

[OttoM]

Ok, so I'm going to ask for clarification so I can understand your position and assertion.

So if a man refuses physical circumcision, what does that mean?

I believe a similar case could be made if a saint keeps the commandments of the Most High, and faith in the Son - but was never baptized in water. What would that mean if he dies and was never baptized in water? I believe the answer you find (it's in the scriptures) would apply to the physical circumcision as well. The true baptism/circumcision is of the Spirit:

Matthew 3:11
I baptize with water those who repent of their sins and turn to God. But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am—so much greater that I’m not worthy even to be his slave and carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Deuteronomy 30:6
YAHUAH - your Elohim - will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Colossians 2:11
11 When you came to YAHUSHA (Christ), you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. YAHUSHA (Christ) performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature.

 

[David D]

The re-gathering of Israel and Judah under King David must happen. It's a major biblical prophecy.

It did happen, Jesus is seated on that throne, he is who Israel and Judah are regathered to. We are in the reign of Christ. The risen Christ is our lawgiver, He made a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The Torah of Christ is written on our hearts and we have his commandments if we know him. We are able to keep the commandments of Yah by abiding in the son thus why circumcision of the flesh is not needed for them that are in Christ Jesus and they that are outside of Christ are already dead in their sins with no hope outside of Christ, making circumcision for righteousness of no profit to them either.

 

[NickF]

I believe a similar case could be made if a saint keeps the commandments of the Most High, and faith in the Son - but was never baptized in water. What would that mean if he dies and was never baptized in water? I believe the answer you find (it's in the scriptures) would apply to the physical circumcision as well. The true baptism/circumcision is of the Spirit:

Matthew 3:11
I baptize with water those who repent of their sins and turn to God. But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am—so much greater that I’m not worthy even to be his slave and carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Deuteronomy 30:6
YAHUAH - your Elohim - will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Colossians 2:11
11 When you came to YAHUSHA (Christ), you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. YAHUSHA (Christ) performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature.

1. So keeping the law is not needful to be in right relationship and obedience to God?
2. Is it good to be circumcised? If so, what good is there in it?

 

[OttoM]

So keeping the law is not needful to be in right relationship and obedience to God?

Let's define sin. What is sin? Is the definition of sin what any person says? Since good is evil these days - what if a person says homosexuals are saints?

According to the scriptures - sin is transgression of the law:

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 3:6
Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.

9 Those who have been born into the Most High's family do not make a practice of sinning, because the Most High's life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of the Most High. 10 So now we can tell who are children of the Most High, and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to the Most High.

23 And this is his commandment: We must believe in the name of his Son, YAHUSHA (Jesus Christ), and love one another, just as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey the Most High's commandments remain in fellowship with him, and he with them.

Ephesians 4:22-24 NLT
Throw off your old sinful nature and your former way of life, which is corrupted by lust and deception. Instead, let the Spirit renew your thoughts and attitudes. Put on your new nature, created to be like the Most High —truly righteous and holy.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

What is righteousness?

For not the hearers of the law [are] righteous before the Most High, but the doers of the law shall be declared righteous | Romans 2:13

“So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good” | Romans 7:12

“All Scripture” (including Torah/law/instructions) is breathed out by the Most High and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness | 2 Timothy 3:16

Deuteronomy 6:24-25 YAHUAH commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear YAHUAH our Elohim, for our good ‘always‘, that he might preserve us alive, as we are this day. And it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to do all this commandment before YAHUAH our Elohim, as he has commanded us.

It's not too hard:

Deuteronomy 30:11,14 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off… But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

Curses for ignoring his law:

Proverbs 28:9
9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

People approach the law through fear. That's from bad teachings. Look how King David approached the law:

Psalm 119:20
My soul is consumed with longing for your laws at all times.

Psalm 119:24
Your statutes are my delight; they are my counselors.

Psalm 119:30
I have chosen the way of faithfulness; I have set my heart on your laws.

Isaiah 51:7
Listen to me, you who know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law.

So.... it's very clear HIS Law was never the problem. Did the law not reveal to you folks that polygyny is righteous? Imagine how much better the world would be if it followed Torah (his law/instructions)? The reason why there is so much lawlessness is because people have rejected his laws. That is the definition of lawlessness and the exact fruit we see today.

 

[NickF]

So is it God’s law that you must be circumcised? And sin to not be circumcised?

 

[OttoM]

So is it God’s law that you must be circumcised? And sin to not be circumcised?

1 John 5:17
All unrighteousness is sin, yet there is sin that does not lead to death.

We talked about that one already. Spirit and Flesh. If you're not spiritually circumcised (Reborn) - then you circumcise yourself and the whole world, and it's not going to save you.

Romans Chapter 2 delves into this a lot.

 

[NickF]

So not a sin that needs to be worried about?

Is it good to be circumcised since it’s obedience?

 

[NickF]

I mean, this is serious stuff. I want to obey God. I definitely don’t want to be walking in unrepentant sin. You just quoted scripture that apparently says

Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to the Most High.

Does He expect me to get circumcised? If I do that is it obedience to Him and living righteously? Is it good for me to get that done?

 

[OttoM]

It did happen, Jesus is seated on that throne, he is who Israel and Judah are regathered to. We are in the reign of Christ.

Question - The land that was given to Jacob; was it on earth or heaven?

It was on Earth. Since that's the case - then there is still a re-gathering of the remnant:

Ezekiel 38:25
“This is what YAHUAH says: The people of Israel will again live in their own land, the land I gave my servant Jacob. For I will gather them from the distant lands where I have scattered them. I will reveal to the nations of the world my holiness among my people.

Jeremiah 31:38
The day is coming,” says YAHUAH, “when all Jerusalem will be rebuilt for me, from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. The city will never again be captured or destroyed.

Ezekiel 37:24
My servant David will be their king, and they will have only one shepherd. They will obey my regulations and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave my servant Jacob, the land where their ancestors lived. They and their children and their grandchildren after them will live there forever, generation after generation. And my servant David will be their prince forever. 26 And I will make a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant. I will give them their land and increase their numbers, and I will put my Temple among them forever. 27 I will make my home among them. I will be their Elohim, and they will be my people. 28 And when my Temple is among them forever, the nations will know that I YAHUAH, is who makes Israel holy.”

Ezekiel 38:23
23 In this way, I will show my greatness and holiness, and I will make myself known to all the nations of the world. Then they will know that I am YAHUAH.

Hosea 2:18
On that day I will make a covenant with all the wild animals and the birds of the sky and the animals that scurry along the ground so they will not harm you. I will remove all weapons of war from the land, all swords and bows, so you can live unafraid in peace and safety.

Isaiah 65
See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy.

Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

They will not labor in vain, nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by YAHUAH, they and their descendants with them.

The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will neither harm nor destroy


Very clear - there is a re-gathering of the remnant back to the land that Jacob lived in. It hasn't happened yet. And the land is not in Palestine. That land is not milk and honey. It doesn't fit the scripture, and that can be easily proven. I believe it's in Africa. The real Jerusalem today is - abandoned. Wasteland (un-used/overgrown). Until the remnant returns - YAH is keeping her that way.

Isaiah 49:14
Yet Jerusalem says, “YAHUAH has abandoned us; YAHUAH has forgotten us.” 15 Never! Can a mother forget her nursing child?

18 Look around you and see, for all your children will come back to you.Even the most desolate parts of your abandoned land will soon be crowded with your people.

21Then you will think to yourself, ‘Who has given me all these descendants? For most of my children were killed, and the rest were carried away into exile. I was left here all alone. Where did all these people come from? Who bore these children? Who raised them for me?’”

Palestine was not abandoned. Or a wasteland. It’s not the promised land. I find it interesting - it’s mainly in Africa that polygyny culture still exists. Yes - in the Middle East through Islam (possibly Esau descendants). The Europeans know very little about it. The northern kingdom - when they were exiled - they assimilated into the Greco/Roman belief systems. That’s why it’s so alien to most Israelites of the Northern Kingdom.

Watch that video and you’ll see the great beauty of the land in Africa.

 

[OttoM]

I mean, this is serious stuff. I want to obey God. I definitely don’t want to be walking in unrepentant sin. You just quoted scripture that apparently says

Does He expect me to get circumcised? If I do that is it obedience to Him and living righteously? Is it good for me to get that done?

Listen brother - that's between you and your Savior. Pray on it. There's sin that leads to death - like cold blooded murder, and adultery. Some more the Creator doesn't like much - having idols made of wood and stone. Divination. Pride.

I will say this - the biblical circumcision is nothing like modern day circumcision. The circumcision in the scriptures was simply a "clipping of the foreskin." Today they remove almost the entire thing:

Did Jewish ritual circumcision become a more invasive procedure in 140 CE?

One can envision two different methods to circumcize a penis based on where the cut is placed. The first method involves placing the cut after the glans and the second placing it before the glans. ...

skeptics.stackexchange.com

It was way easier to get done. Paul did it himself. Moses' wife did it. Jacob's household circumcised an entire community. Today - you need a doctor because it's much more invasive.

 

[NickF]

Listen brother - that's between you and your Savior. Pray on it.

There’s no way I can just imagine the standard or pray and hope I know the standard. What is the standard? You apparently know what it is. Why are you refusing to answer? Isn’t that a sin? I’m begging for an answer on the requirements of the Law. And nobody has the balls or the confidence to give a clear answer. How can I trust anything you say if you won’t take a stand and proclaim the truth? Do you not know what the truth is?

 

[OttoM]

There’s no way I can just imagine the standard or pray and hope I know the standard. What is the standard? You apparently know what it is. Why are you refusing to answer? Isn’t that a sin? I’m begging for an answer on the requirements of the Law. And nobody has the balls or the confidence to give a clear answer. How can I trust anything you say if you won’t take a stand and proclaim the truth? Do you not know what the truth is?

If I am saved through grace alone - is there a limit to how much I can sin? What is the limit? It's not really defined by Christianity. If I steal your car - would I still be okay? Or can I also steal a 2nd car as well? Would I still be okay - since I'm saved through grace alone, and the law has been nailed on the cross? I just want to know how much I can sin - or if there is even a limit? Since I professed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord - I am good right?

 

[NickF]

Cowards won’t answer clear questions. I pray the judgement of Yah upon you for refusing to answer a clear question on His requirements for obedience. This cowardice disgusts me.

Why won’t anybody answer this simple question? @PeteR @The Revolting Man can any of you answer? I’ve asked and asked. Nobody will ever give an answer. Everyone has tucked tail and run. Do either of you have the stones to actually answer? This guy won’t. Are all of Yah’s so called “men” so cowardly they won’t ever take a stand? I’m embarrassed and ashamed that nobody will ever give a yes or no clear answer.

So many men purport to hold the Truth but none will proclaim it boldly.

If I don’t get any answers, the silence will speak volumes.

 

[David D]

1. So keeping the law is not needful to be in right relationship and obedience to God?
2. Is it good to be circumcised? If so, what good is there in it?

Christians have a law, it is the law of Christ. We must be found in Him as he fulfilled the law given by moses. The messiah abides in Yahs love we must be one body with messiah. If we want to keep the seal of God we will walk by the Spirit not fulfilling the deeds of the flesh. We will bear much fruit as the Father prunes all that are grafted into his son. If we don't bear fruit because of our own unbelief we will be cutoff just as some of the natural branches were for their unbelief.

 

[OttoM]

Christians have a law, it is the law of Christ. We must be found in Him as he fulfilled the law given by moses. The messiah abides in Yahs love we must be one body with messiah. If we want to keep the seal of God we will walk by the Spirit not fulfilling the deeds of the flesh. We will bear much fruit as the Father prunes all that are grafted into his son. If we don't bear fruit because of our own unbelief we will be cutoff just as some of the natural branches were for their unbelief.

He didn’t fulfill the law in terms of abolishing it:

Matthew 5:17
7 Do not think that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets. No, I have not come to destroy them, but to fulfil them. 18 For truly I say to you, till heaven and earth perish, not one jot or one tittle of the law shall escape, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, he will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But whosoever observes and teaches them, the same will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

“Has all been fulfilled?”

If no - then not one little thing in the law is done away with.

How do you fulfill the first and greatest commandment? Love the Most High with all your heart, soul, and strength?

How did the faithful and good servants of old show their love? How about for starters - not doing the things he says he despises. If he despises something - avoid it. That’s one way you can show love. That’s where the law/instructions/commandments come into play. In Paul’s time - people knew the law of Moses much better than today. Because it was preached in every city. Today - the law of Moses is rarely preached and behold - lawlessness has followed. Coincidence? I don’t think so. So I most definitely won’t stand on any side that teaches the law was done away with, and have to potentially drink the cup of wrath that goes with it.

 

[NickF]

 

[Michael Moon]

Cowards won’t answer clear questions. I pray the judgement of Yah upon you for refusing to answer a clear question on His requirements for obedience. This cowardice disgusts me.

Why won’t anybody answer this simple question? @PeteR @The Revolting Man can any of you answer? I’ve asked and asked. Nobody will ever give an answer. Everyone has tucked tail and run. Do either of you have the stones to actually answer? This guy won’t. Are all of Yah’s so called “men” so cowardly they won’t ever take a stand? I’m embarrassed and ashamed that nobody will ever give a yes or no clear answer.

So many men purport to hold the Truth but none will proclaim it boldly.

If I don’t get any answers, the silence will speak volumes.

The forum rules quite literally do not allow definite answers on this topic to be given. And I firmly believe you know that. The answer is clear (both in scripture and in the responses given) you are simply trying to trap someone into telling you what to do so you can cry "Judaizer!"

He who has the ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[OttoM]

You can’t tell me how many major robberies I can commit - before losing the free gift of salvation that comes from professing with the mouth that - Jesus is Lord; just as I can’t answer your own question pointed towards me. I don’t believe it’s in either of our places to make such a declaration. End of the day - YAH will save who he wishes to save. And YAH won’t save or he won’t save. It’s his Creation. We can just humble ourselves and do what we can; and remember he’s a righteous judge that’s merciful and forgiving. He knows every heart and every thought:

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear Elohim and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For the Most High will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

 

[NickF]

The forum rules quite literally do not allow definite answers on this topic to be given. And I firmly believe you know that. The answer is clear (both in scripture and in the responses given) you are simply trying to trap someone into telling you what to do so you can cry "Judaizer!"

He who has the ears to hear, let him hear.

They certainly do. I asked questions. Debate on the topic is not permitted. You’re accusing me of something I’ve not done.

What answer is clear? I must assume and infer because nobody has the stones to say their beliefs. It’s shameful behavior.

He who has ears to hear plugs them with wax and says “figure it out for yourself!”. Don’t be a Jonah.