I’m picking up two different threads from you here; one is about good order in the assembly and the other returns to a little bit to your whole idea of headship. Is that accurate?
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Meat Can women pray or prophesy in the Assembly?
- Thread starter The Revolting Man
- Start date
It also brings up the interesting question why women can’t learn in the assembly. If it’s their own husbands who have to teach them exclusively then why are they even in the assembly?
And why aren’t young women told to learn from their fathers at home? Or elderly widows mentioned at all? If this verse is about headship and good order then it has huge, gaping holes in it.
No I believe they can learn, but if they need something explained in depth then they should ask their husband.
Not sure, the verse alludes to headship but im not saying this is a verse to teach headship. I don't think elderly women or young women can ask questions while men are teaching though
So you don’t know for sure what the verses are saying but you know it’s not some kind of prohibition on women speaking generally in the assembly?
I believe that women should ask their questions to their husbands at home. Pretty simple.
It’s not simple though. It can’t be. We have women being told to be silent, it’s not permitted to them to speak; they even have to save their questions for home.
Now we have to dissect that to mean that women can speak in the assembly and even pray and prophesy, they just can’t ask questions of their husbands. And we have to figure out why they can’t ask questions if men other than their husbands.
It’s not simple at all your way.
Wow @windblown Did you get the tire marks off your dress from where you got thrown under that big ole bus??
I can't stop laughing at this lol
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I'm fairly new on this forum, and still completely clueless as to how to navigate it. So I just tripped on this tonight. I am impressed. Y'all can really hang in there. Bravo.
Me, I checked out on page 2. But I gotta ask a couple questions.
First, I know nothing.
Second, I skipped reading pp 3 through 7.
So If I am wasting your time right now, being redundant, skip ahead yourself.
Okay. At the Exodus, or technically during the wandering time, the fighting men were censused. This was the Assembly.
David got in serious trouble for counting in his day.
Third census was the feeding of 5,000. Messiah said make the people sit down in groups of 50. Disciples made them all sit down in groups of 50 men plus women and children.
4th census (if I missed one please overlook it, I am making a connection, not a technical review) is the 144,000 in Revelation. They are men.
3 witnesses that the 144,000 are all men:
Nowhere in scripture were women counted in such a context.
They were not defiled with women. Whether spiritual/metaphorical or literal, it wouldn't make sense to say this of women or a mixed gender group.
They are spoken of using male pronouns.
Takeaway/question:
Do we hold assemblies? Is an assembly a meeting for men? In which case, women being among them, speaking, and leading would all be a no-no.
Not sure how to picture that. Neither today nor in NT times. But we do have clue references, like "the court of women" as a separate area of the temple. And the near-extinct tradition of men and women not sitting together in church.
What can these tell us about what scripture/ the Most High thinks the "assembly" is?
Me, I checked out on page 2. But I gotta ask a couple questions.
First, I know nothing.
Second, I skipped reading pp 3 through 7.
So If I am wasting your time right now, being redundant, skip ahead yourself.
Okay. At the Exodus, or technically during the wandering time, the fighting men were censused. This was the Assembly.
David got in serious trouble for counting in his day.
Third census was the feeding of 5,000. Messiah said make the people sit down in groups of 50. Disciples made them all sit down in groups of 50 men plus women and children.
4th census (if I missed one please overlook it, I am making a connection, not a technical review) is the 144,000 in Revelation. They are men.
3 witnesses that the 144,000 are all men:
Nowhere in scripture were women counted in such a context.
They were not defiled with women. Whether spiritual/metaphorical or literal, it wouldn't make sense to say this of women or a mixed gender group.
They are spoken of using male pronouns.
Takeaway/question:
Do we hold assemblies? Is an assembly a meeting for men? In which case, women being among them, speaking, and leading would all be a no-no.
Not sure how to picture that. Neither today nor in NT times. But we do have clue references, like "the court of women" as a separate area of the temple. And the near-extinct tradition of men and women not sitting together in church.
What can these tell us about what scripture/ the Most High thinks the "assembly" is?
I just came across this thread this morning as someone commented on it and it popped up in what's new.
I will give a couple of answers and then a real world issue.
First of all answering the challenge
The answer for me is no, however this, as I read it is not to do with "corporate" or prayer as the assembly together, for example the Lord's prayer where all can pray together, this is to do with what I would call women "leading in prayer" which I have seen over the decades without fail leads to disorder and disastrous results, there is a pattern.
Now with regards to 1 Timothy 2 the "silence" has context baked in
The silence is juxtaposed with learning, teaching and authority. So no teaching or commanding directing from women in the assembly in any capacity.
Both sets of instructions in Corinthians and Timothy let us know that in the assembly there is teaching going on. We read very clearly that a married woman is to ask questions at home to her husband alone, not, in the assembly of the Saints.
So, what does that mean to women who have no husband?
I will share how I deal with this on a practical level.
First of all the assembly, what is it in the context of this conversation and scriptures?
The assembly is the gathering together of the believers to remember the lords death until his return, the Lord's supper is the main part as it were, however, there is prayer praise worship testimonies TEACHING etc that precedes and follows the Lord's supper.
Married women do not speak OR ask questions whilst a man is teaching, every man is given a topical, bible study concordance aid that has been compiled so that every man has a study aid that gives them a foundation to help them study the word for personal application and teach their wives and wash them with the washing of the water of the word, bringing order to their home.
Unmarried women are able to ask questions, however they do not ask or speak until they have been given permission to ask their specific question. Some questions are better answered by the mature in the faith women outside of the assembling of ourselves together.
There is a whole week wherein many topics can be discussed taught and learned.
Whenever the assembly is asked if anyone has a song, a woman can sing.
Now an example.
We had a family coming where the wife was the dominant person in the marriage. She wanted to ask me questions directly I told her no. She argued that her husband was a new believer so he didn't know a lot of scriptures, I said she can only ask me a question with her husbands permission, which she got. The issues came when he started to get strong in the word very quickly and was not just reading out scripture in the assembly but expounding with edification which was scriptural and sound. His wife didn't like it and eventually stated that she would not submit to her husband but that she would listen to me. Which I could not allow. He had become brow beaten at home and for peace sake wanted me to just answer her questions directly.
I refused stating I would support him in whatever he needs, but they both refused to abide orderly so I advised him if he did not want to abide by the scriptures they would have to fellowship elsewhere (There is a lot lot more to this story)
So what has this got to do with the topic at hand?
Well the woman had come from a Pentecostal background which is very disorderly and in the main led by women through men as puppets. She wanted to circumvent the assembly every week with emotional outbursts etc and found it difficult to control her mouth or her behavior.
I have seen over the years that many women gravitate to that type of behavior as an exhibition platform. Some behaviors are natural and some spiritual
Saying all that to say, Paul said what he said, in Timothy and in Corinthians Apostle Paul refers to teaching and asking questions / learning and authority in both passages, there is just a different delivery of the same principles.
The instructions were PRACTICAL not theological and can only be truly understood when applied practically.
Women do not speak out of turn.
Women learn in silence.
Married women ask questions at home to their husband.
Single women can ask in the assembly or in the week if they have not been given permission to ask in the assembly.
When a single woman gets married she comes under the authority of her husband alone and must submit to his authority NOT mine or any other man in the assembly.
I do not instruct or ask another man's wife to do or for anything
If he wants to go to fellowship elsewhere she goes with him. If he wants to church on Sunday she goes with him.
The order of YaHushuWaH must be adhered to regardless of the feelings of the woman.
Some women find the order and discipline required restrictive, however, not one man or woman has been able to state it is unbiblical.
I will add this, we at this moment in time do not have a woman in the assembly with the gift of prophecy so cannot comment on that more than to say I have seen how a woman with that gift can be deluded and led astray so quickly by Satan when there is no adherence to what the Apostle Paul wrote.
(1)
I disagree on a "single can ask in the assembly" and here is why. The scripture teaches that a woman is to...
I Timothy 2:11-12
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
I Corinthians 14:33-35 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
In (1) you say a married woman has to ask her husband at home. I'm guessing it's because he is her HEAD.
But in (2) a single woman can ask, because the head of his "single" daughter, is somehow not in control of her.
Then you have (3) if she gets married, she now has an “authority” over her.
And then we have.
Titus 2:3-5
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
The aged woman is to “be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers,” and they are to be “teachers of good things;”.
The aged woman / mama of daughters are to “teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands,”
The aged woman is going to TEACH the young single woman / daughter to...
I Corinthians 14:33-35 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Husband,
Strongs: G435
435 aner an'-ayr
a primary word (compare 444); a man (properly as an individual
male):--fellow, husband, man, sir.
see GREEK for 444
444 anthropos anth'-ro-pos from 435 and ops (the countenance; from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:--certain, man. see GREEK for 435 see GREEK for 3700
435 aner an'-ayr a primary word (compare 444); a man (properly as an individual male):--fellow, husband, man, sir. see GREEK for 444
Sir is a formal honorific address in English for men, derived from Sire in the High Middle Ages. Both are derived from the old French "Sieur" (Lord), brought to England by the French-speaking Normans, and which now exist in French only as part of "Monsieur", with the equivalent "My Lord" in English.
Lets look at “My Lord” from a Biblical aspect.
I Peter 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
Lord, 2962 kurios koo'-ree-os
from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun)
controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):-- God,
Lord, master, Sir.
I point out all the husband definitions to say this, a woman / daughter is to submit to her man/master and we know by the above passages a woman, whether married or not is to have a husband/man/master over her and therefore is to ASK at home.
This is exhibit A-Z on why I believe women, whether married or not need (to put it in a crude way) to sit down and shut up.
We also had a similar experience here on the property, us men were talking Biblical stuff with another man and every time we asked him a question his wife would butt in. He couldn't get a word in edge wise. Finally I had enough, and I rebuked her, it was something to the effect of... Are you going to be quiet and let him answer, we are talking to him not you, we want his thoughts not yours. Needless to say, we haven't seen them since.
I Timothy 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
I Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
I don't see anywhere in the above passages that says 'unless she has the gift of prophecy'. I am not trying to undermine a woman prophetess, but I don't ever recall reading about one speaking during Sabbath services. They were always out of Sabbath Assembly doors and if you think I am wrong please correct me. Now I am aware of this passage...
Luke 2:36-38 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
But this passage does not teach that she spoke during Sabbath meetings.
Ok I am done now
By the way, Good Sabbath!!
(2)
(3)
I disagree on a "single can ask in the assembly" and here is why. The scripture teaches that a woman is to...
I Timothy 2:11-12
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
I Corinthians 14:33-35 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
In (1) you say a married woman has to ask her husband at home. I'm guessing it's because he is her HEAD.
But in (2) a single woman can ask, because the head of his "single" daughter, is somehow not in control of her.
Then you have (3) if she gets married, she now has an “authority” over her.
And then we have.
Titus 2:3-5
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
The aged woman is to “be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers,” and they are to be “teachers of good things;”.
The aged woman / mama of daughters are to “teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands,”
The aged woman is going to TEACH the young single woman / daughter to...
I Corinthians 14:33-35 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Husband,
Strongs: G435
435 aner an'-ayr
a primary word (compare 444); a man (properly as an individual
male):--fellow, husband, man, sir.
see GREEK for 444
444 anthropos anth'-ro-pos from 435 and ops (the countenance; from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:--certain, man. see GREEK for 435 see GREEK for 3700
435 aner an'-ayr a primary word (compare 444); a man (properly as an individual male):--fellow, husband, man, sir. see GREEK for 444
Sir is a formal honorific address in English for men, derived from Sire in the High Middle Ages. Both are derived from the old French "Sieur" (Lord), brought to England by the French-speaking Normans, and which now exist in French only as part of "Monsieur", with the equivalent "My Lord" in English.
Lets look at “My Lord” from a Biblical aspect.
I Peter 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
Lord, 2962 kurios koo'-ree-os
from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun)
controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):-- God,
Lord, master, Sir.
I point out all the husband definitions to say this, a woman / daughter is to submit to her man/master and we know by the above passages a woman, whether married or not is to have a husband/man/master over her and therefore is to ASK at home.
This is exhibit A-Z on why I believe women, whether married or not need (to put it in a crude way) to sit down and shut up.
We also had a similar experience here on the property, us men were talking Biblical stuff with another man and every time we asked him a question his wife would butt in. He couldn't get a word in edge wise. Finally I had enough, and I rebuked her, it was something to the effect of... Are you going to be quiet and let him answer, we are talking to him not you, we want his thoughts not yours. Needless to say, we haven't seen them since.
There are no exceptions in the Scriptures, they are clear...
I Timothy 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
I Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
I don't see anywhere in the above passages that says 'unless she has the gift of prophecy'. I am not trying to undermine a woman prophetess, but I don't ever recall reading about one speaking during Sabbath services. They were always out of Sabbath Assembly doors and if you think I am wrong please correct me. Now I am aware of this passage...
Luke 2:36-38 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
But this passage does not teach that she spoke during Sabbath meetings.
Ok I am done now
By the way, Good Sabbath!!
@Edward
You can disagree it's your prerogative.
You decided to rebuke another man's woman in front of him.
Your words and opinions mean even less now.
Thanks for sharing.
You can disagree it's your prerogative.
Your experience is nothing similar to what I shared.
You decided to rebuke another man's woman in front of him.
Your words and opinions mean even less now.
Thanks for sharing.
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That's OK I wasn't trying to compete.
If a man doesn't have the STONES to REBUKE his woman and keep HIS woman in line so that her rebellion doesn't influence my wife or other men's wives, I WILL speak up and put a stop to it if I can. Maybe just maybe he needs that example. I get it, Men shouldn't rebuke another man woman that is HIS JOB, but if she is trying to CONTROL the conversation that I am apart of I will let it slide for a little while, then I will set an example to the male and try and put a stop to it, if they will not heed then I will end the conversation or remove myself from it.
That's OK they were FREE.
I will end with this...
Esther 1:10-22 On the seventh day, when the heart of the king was merry with wine, he commanded Mehuman, Biztha, Harbona, Bigtha, and Abagtha, Zethar, and Carcas, the seven chamberlains that served in the presence of Ahasuerus the king,
11 To bring Vashti the queen before the king with the crown royal, to shew the people and the princes her beauty: for she was fair to look on.
12 But the queen Vashti refused to come at the king's commandment by his chamberlains: therefore was the king very wroth, and his anger burned in him.
13 Then the king said to the wise men, which knew the times, (for so was the king's manner toward all that knew law and judgment:
14 And the next unto him was Carshena, Shethar, Admatha, Tarshish, Meres, Marsena, and Memucan, the seven princes of Persia and Media, which saw the king's face, and which sat the first in the kingdom
15 What shall we do unto the queen Vashti according to law, because she hath not performed the commandment of the king Ahasuerus by the chamberlains?
16 And Memucan answered before the king and the princes, Vashti the queen hath not done wrong to the king only, but also to all the princes, and to all the people that are in all the provinces of the king Ahasuerus.
17 For this deed of the queen shall come abroad unto all women, so that they shall despise their husbands in their eyes, when it shall be reported, The king Ahasuerus commanded Vashti the queen to be brought in before him, but she came not.
18 Likewise shall the ladies of Persia and Media say this day unto all the king's princes, which have heard of the deed of the queen. Thus shall there arise too much contempt and wrath.
19 If it please the king, let there go a royal commandment from him, and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes, that it be not altered, That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate unto another that is better than she.
20 And when the king's decree which he shall make shall be published throughout all his empire, (for it is great,) all the wives shall give to their husbands honour, both to great and small.
21 And the saying pleased the king and the princes; and the king did according to the word of Memucan:
22 For he sent letters into all the king's provinces, into every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language, that every man should bear rule in his own house, and that it should be published according to the language of every people.
I quote this example to point out that the king asked v15 (the male I mentioned above didn't have the stones to ask) so I stepped in and set an example so (her rebellion doesn't influence my wife or other men's wives,) v16,17 and 18. I spoke up so that hopefully v20 will bring honor to the husbands.
Who do single women and widows ask?
4 But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man.
10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.
Scripture is clear on the matter. Women under 60 are to be married.
This scripture doesn’t actually say that. It says widows under 60 who haven’t met a number of other qualifications shouldn’t be enrolled to receive charity.
A woman who has been a very young widow indeed met Christ as an infant at the temple and prophesied over Him. I am not convinced at all that a woman under 60 MUST marry.
Their fathers.
I used to believe exactly that until I studied that chapter closer. Paul's instruction is for the women under 60 to be married. Widow or otherwise.
Can you break down why you disagree? (give an exegesis of the passage?)
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They would not always be alive. "The male head of their family" would be a more workable answer.