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Should a woman be a pastor?
- Thread starter Rose of Sharon
- Start date
Part of being the head includes teaching her.
Ephesians 5:25-26
[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; [26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
One of the things I found interesting in Jewish culture was that a woman could petition the judges etc. on her own, but wasn’t allowed to address the assembly without going thru an intermediate( her father, husband etc) even for a capital accusation where the sentence could be her death.
Interesting. There is a lot to unpack from that. That is pretty cool.
And you can see that play out today in how most husbands will not spiritually lead their wives in any way but thoughtlessly allow their women to fall under the leadership of a local pastor or random celebrity female teacher via books and other media.
This is an interesting conversation. Popcorn was good but time to chime in.
There will never be a consensus on this subject. You have the Priscilla factor, the four daughters, Deborah, along with many others mentioned in scripture.
You also have scripture telling women to remain silent in the church. Ask your husbands at home.
Then there is the pastor as head of the church.
First, eliminate pastoral headship. Family structure is as follows; children then parents, wife then husband, husband then Christ, Christ then the Father. No where is a pastor to have a lineup in this family structure. He is a leader, nowhere is he supposed to take a headship over another man, or another man’s family.
Be silent in the church; even today in the Middle East, women and men are separated in the mosques. Even in some Christian circles, men and women sit separately in churches. During the first days of the church, women sat in the back and couldn’t hear all that was being said. They would (loudly) ask their husbands what was said and it would disrupt the service. So, the logical thing to do was tell them to remain silent and ask the hubby what was said at home.
As the head of my house, I have given my wife permission to speak and teach in the church. Since no one in my church or on this site can take away my headship of my family, I stand firm in her right to speak up. And frankly, she’s a good teacher.
Since a pastor never had the right of headship over any man, then I see no issue with a woman being a pastor, if her husband has given his permission. And, assuming the wife continues being submissive to her husband.
The New Testament speaks of women pastors, and the scripture has final authority.
But, I can’t stress enough, patriarchy must remain intact. Submission must remain intact. Going outside family leadership, as defined in the scripture, is a good recipe for failure.
There will never be a consensus on this subject. You have the Priscilla factor, the four daughters, Deborah, along with many others mentioned in scripture.
You also have scripture telling women to remain silent in the church. Ask your husbands at home.
Then there is the pastor as head of the church.
First, eliminate pastoral headship. Family structure is as follows; children then parents, wife then husband, husband then Christ, Christ then the Father. No where is a pastor to have a lineup in this family structure. He is a leader, nowhere is he supposed to take a headship over another man, or another man’s family.
Be silent in the church; even today in the Middle East, women and men are separated in the mosques. Even in some Christian circles, men and women sit separately in churches. During the first days of the church, women sat in the back and couldn’t hear all that was being said. They would (loudly) ask their husbands what was said and it would disrupt the service. So, the logical thing to do was tell them to remain silent and ask the hubby what was said at home.
As the head of my house, I have given my wife permission to speak and teach in the church. Since no one in my church or on this site can take away my headship of my family, I stand firm in her right to speak up. And frankly, she’s a good teacher.
Since a pastor never had the right of headship over any man, then I see no issue with a woman being a pastor, if her husband has given his permission. And, assuming the wife continues being submissive to her husband.
The New Testament speaks of women pastors, and the scripture has final authority.
But, I can’t stress enough, patriarchy must remain intact. Submission must remain intact. Going outside family leadership, as defined in the scripture, is a good recipe for failure.
So close yet so wrong. You are correct that there was separate seating in the early church, so far as I know. But a woman wouldn't yell across the room a question to her husband, she'd just ask the woman sitting next to her.
And that leads to two problems....1) women chatting away and not paying attention and 2) women teaching women doctrine. The second is a problem because that is a woman usurping the role and authority of another woman's husband and because they are not to be teaching doctrine. That is not the proper role of the easily deceived sex; regardless of whether her husband gives her permission or not.
No it never does. In fact the qualifications for a pastor specifically enjoin against it. There is no scriptural authority for women teachers or pastors nor did the churches have any for 1900 years until a particular movement came on the scene; a movement which rejects patriarchy and Biblical authority.
You are right that you have the authority over your family as the patriarch.
As you point out the head of woman is man the head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. So when God says "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach..." I personally would consider it too large of a risk for me to say:
It wouldn't matter the justifications I had lined up, me personally I wouldn't risk it.
Peace be with you brother.
As you point out the head of woman is man the head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. So when God says "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach..." I personally would consider it too large of a risk for me to say:
It wouldn't matter the justifications I had lined up, me personally I wouldn't risk it.
Peace be with you brother.
I don't recall ever seeing anything about a woman pastor promoted in scripture. They did have deaconesses that oversaw women related issues. There were woman prophetess. The older women are exhorted to teach the younger.
I have no problem with a woman being asked to pray over prayer requests. I have no problem with a woman being asked to read scripture or sharing a testimony as long as these things are done in accordance with her husband's vision. Too often the wife expounds on her vision. The husband on his vision and at the end of the day while interesting thots are shared the biggest take away is, Their house is divided.
I have no problem with a woman being asked to pray over prayer requests. I have no problem with a woman being asked to read scripture or sharing a testimony as long as these things are done in accordance with her husband's vision. Too often the wife expounds on her vision. The husband on his vision and at the end of the day while interesting thots are shared the biggest take away is, Their house is divided.
You imply that it is morally wrong for the women and men to be separated. Why?
What do you think of the Women's Court in the Temple of Jerusalem?
That's great information that would help me with one of my equations.
Where do you get that?
Romans 16
1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
I believe the term servant is also translated as deacon. Not sure if there are more?
God's intention is very clearly for men to take on leadership roles. But, when men fail, God has a backup plan - He has designed women to step up. That's why we see Deborah etc. It's not ideal, it's an indictment on the men - nevertheless it is God's backup plan, because He designed women to be capable of leadership also.
In marriage, whenever there is a controlling wife who tries to lead her husband instead of submitting to him, if you look closely you'll often find that at least part of the reason for her taking charge is that her husband failed to lead strongly enough. And the stronger-willed the woman, the stronger-willed her husband must be in order to provide the leadership that she expects - likewise a meek wife will gladly allow a mild husband to lead without trying to take charge herself. God has however designed both women to be able to take charge if necessary.
For a clear example, if the husband is a drunk who won't provide for his wife and kids, nearly any wife will eventually reach the point that she takes charge of the situation, either by running the home herself (including hiding money from her husband, finding other income sources) or leaving it entirely, simply to ensure that the children are safe and fed. This is not ideal in any way - but it can be the best thing for her to do in the circumstances.
Likewise, if the men in the church are disorganised and don't lead the church to do anything profitable, the women will instinctively start trying to organise ministry activities instead. This is not an indictment on those women - they're actually trying to do something very good (regardless of the details, the intent is in the right place). It's an indictment on the men for not stepping up first.
So I am also in the camp of male leadership being God's plan - but I wouldn't blame women for stepping up when that isn't happening. I actually think God designed them to instinctively do this, as His insurance policy against complete disintegration of natural families or the church when the men neglect their duties. The solution is for men to start working, not to complain about the women.
In marriage, whenever there is a controlling wife who tries to lead her husband instead of submitting to him, if you look closely you'll often find that at least part of the reason for her taking charge is that her husband failed to lead strongly enough. And the stronger-willed the woman, the stronger-willed her husband must be in order to provide the leadership that she expects - likewise a meek wife will gladly allow a mild husband to lead without trying to take charge herself. God has however designed both women to be able to take charge if necessary.
For a clear example, if the husband is a drunk who won't provide for his wife and kids, nearly any wife will eventually reach the point that she takes charge of the situation, either by running the home herself (including hiding money from her husband, finding other income sources) or leaving it entirely, simply to ensure that the children are safe and fed. This is not ideal in any way - but it can be the best thing for her to do in the circumstances.
Likewise, if the men in the church are disorganised and don't lead the church to do anything profitable, the women will instinctively start trying to organise ministry activities instead. This is not an indictment on those women - they're actually trying to do something very good (regardless of the details, the intent is in the right place). It's an indictment on the men for not stepping up first.
So I am also in the camp of male leadership being God's plan - but I wouldn't blame women for stepping up when that isn't happening. I actually think God designed them to instinctively do this, as His insurance policy against complete disintegration of natural families or the church when the men neglect their duties. The solution is for men to start working, not to complain about the women.
@FollowingHim, I agree with you except for the fact that you totally left the work of the enemy out of the picture.
Ah, but he's male, and I was talking about women. If the women are just doing what a male told them to do, that's all good. 
I knew that. I agree with you that in at least some cases they may well be being driven by Satan. I acknowledged this in a jocular fashion. Unfortunately many people don't get my weird sense of humour, however many smiley faces I put beside it. Sorry if that was confusing.
@yoderfamily well rats. Where do you get that she was in charge of women related stuff?
Perhaps this? Not sure it fits the context though...
Titus 2:4 KJV
[4] That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,