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Should a woman be a pastor?

FollowingHim said:
In marriage, whenever there is a controlling wife who tries to lead her husband instead of submitting to him, if you look closely you'll often find that at least part of the reason for her taking charge is that her husband failed to lead strongly enough. And the stronger-willed the woman, the stronger-willed her husband must be in order to provide the leadership that she expects -
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I have seen this too.....and it applies to other things as well.
Training horses it is the person that is supposed to lead and direct.....but a smart and strong willed horse can mess up and reverse things. Such animals often make THE BEST horses, once they are retrained and submitted to the human handler.
Some horses are low key and easy....some are tempermental, some are just mental (read ideal for Alpo *edited to add that alpo was a brand of dog food :-))
Most will be fine if someone is just firm, fair and friendly....and learns to speak "horse."
I hope @andrew covers how he learned to convert woman-speak to man-speak in that book he's gonna write. That would be priceless info!
 
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FollowingHim said:
God's intention is very clearly for men to take on leadership roles. But, when men fail, God has a backup plan - He has designed women to step up. That's why we see Deborah etc. It's not ideal, it's an indictment on the men - nevertheless it is God's backup plan, because He designed women to be capable of leadership also.

In marriage, whenever there is a controlling wife who tries to lead her husband instead of submitting to him, if you look closely you'll often find that at least part of the reason for her taking charge is that her husband failed to lead strongly enough. And the stronger-willed the woman, the stronger-willed her husband must be in order to provide the leadership that she expects - likewise a meek wife will gladly allow a mild husband to lead without trying to take charge herself. God has however designed both women to be able to take charge if necessary.

For a clear example, if the husband is a drunk who won't provide for his wife and kids, nearly any wife will eventually reach the point that she takes charge of the situation, either by running the home herself (including hiding money from her husband, finding other income sources) or leaving it entirely, simply to ensure that the children are safe and fed. This is not ideal in any way - but it can be the best thing for her to do in the circumstances.

Likewise, if the men in the church are disorganised and don't lead the church to do anything profitable, the women will instinctively start trying to organise ministry activities instead. This is not an indictment on those women - they're actually trying to do something very good (regardless of the details, the intent is in the right place). It's an indictment on the men for not stepping up first.

So I am also in the camp of male leadership being God's plan - but I wouldn't blame women for stepping up when that isn't happening. I actually think God designed them to instinctively do this, as His insurance policy against complete disintegration of natural families or the church when the men neglect their duties. The solution is for men to start working, not to complain about the women.
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This idea of women stepping up leads to the argument that when women are leading/teaching/doing man's work it must be because men failed to step up and do their job. I disagree; that's usually just a cover story, the excuse, the rationalization. Envy is women's chief temptation and with it her desire to control her husband. These aren't God's backup plans. God's backup plan is for the woman to submit to her husband that he may be won without a word.

Just watch what happens when men try to step up and take charge again and you'll see the root cause of the action. They don't meekly step back aside, it takes an insurrection.
 
Pacman said:
Perhaps this? Not sure it fits the context though...

Titus 2:4 KJV
[4] That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
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It doesn't take deaconesses and a women's ministry to admonish young wives to love their family and not get drunk. Just relationships and older women willing to step in with a word when there are problems.
 
cnystrom said:
You imply that it is morally wrong for the women and men to be separated. Why?

What do you think of the Women's Court in the Temple of Jerusalem?
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Actually, no implication implied or stated. It was just an observation of that part of the world.

As we read thru the five fold ministry, “some are called to be apostles, some to be profits” etc, the word “some” in the Strongs is translated ‘men’. However, the word some is not used for evangelists, pastors and teachers. Just thought I’d throw that out there for this discussion.

As for women in the scriptures holding a special place in the church, naming a few, Priscilla, Aquila and Phebe, I concede they were not mentioned as pastor. But I must add, I don’t believe any man was ever called out as a pastor either. With the exception of Jesus.

Since no man was called out as pastor, do we also exclude men from candidacy as pastor.

A comment was made to my giving my wife permission to teach in church. As we know, Eve was not in trouble till Adam followed suite. Had he taken a stand and said no, we’d probably still be in the garden. I say this from this point of view, I am head of my household and some day I will have to make account for my decisions and those under my headship. And to date, I am at complete peace with giving my wife permission to teach both genders. If anyone has issue with that stand, don’t come to the church she’ll be teaching in. It’s that simple.
 
It is shameful for a woman to hold authority over a man. :D

(Come on guys, ... Biblical Patriarchy even includes owning female slaves / bondservants / concubines!)

If women are supposed to be completely silent in church and are instructed to defer to their hubby for leadership and guidance... then it’s my opinion that we may be stretching things a bit here as to how much weight(authority) a gal can throw around in the church.

I personally feel that much of our thinking on this topic is still yet another example of some cultural conditioning.
We as “modern men” lean heavily on promoting the loving and gentle approach to husbanding. (Derived from good instructions that we do find in Scripture.) But, these things should not cause us to taint the natural pecking order that God has put in place! Men are in charge... period! (As mentioned several times before: wives are even told to fully submit to an unbelieving husband for goodness sakes! That says A LOT!)
 
rustywest4 said:
If women are supposed to be completely silent in church and are instructed to defer to their hubby for leadership and guidance... then it’s my opinion that we may be stretching things a bit here as to how much weight(authority) a gal can throw around in the church.
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I agree whole heartedly with you in that a wife is to defer to their husbands leadership and guidance. I concede that point to be a given.

By as a told a Matawa, religious cleric in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, “Are you taking my rights as husband of my wife”?

He had no rights under Muslim law to tell my wife what to do except going thru me. Of which I disagreed with him.

Pastors have the right to lead a church. No pastor has headship over any man, that is Christ’s position. As head of my household, I have no right to tell you how to run yours, only influence you. That influence is either accepted or rejected by you.

I have sat in Sunday School and watched my wife just about to argue with the pastor on a given topic. I shook my head and indicated for her to not say anything. She submitted. On another instance, the opposite occurred. She had my permission and argued with him. Pic your battles and she loves to confront. Which is where guidance comes in.

There is case evidence in the Scripture of women in church roles. Names are mentioned. Romans 16 is a good place to start.

But by the same token, you have every right to ‘not’ grant your wife permission to speak in church.
 
Phillip said:
Actually, no implication implied or stated. It was just an observation of that part of the world.
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What was your point then? Why did you bring it up?

Phillip said:
As we read thru the five fold ministry,...
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What is the "five fold ministry" ?

Phillip said:
As for women in the scriptures holding a special place in the church, naming a few, Priscilla, Aquila and Phebe, I concede they were not mentioned as pastor. But I must add, I don’t believe any man was ever called out as a pastor either. With the exception of Jesus.
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I do not think anyone is contending against women having "a special place". Mary the mother of Jesus is a pretty special place. What exactly these special places mean is where the differences occur. I think the Catholics have the wrong special place for Mary, for example.

Phillip said:
As we know, Eve was not in trouble till Adam followed suite. Had he taken a stand and said no, we’d probably still be in the garden.
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How do you know this?

Phillip said:
If anyone has issue with that stand, don’t come to the church she’ll be teaching in. It’s that simple.
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I do not attend any church where a woman is teaching.
 
cnystrom said:
What is the "five fold ministry" ?
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The five fold ministry is a phrase coined for Apostles, Profits, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.

Some day you’ll have to show me how to do continued reply’s. I can only do one per text.

The special place I referred to is a place where sides are formed. I have discussed these positions in length in the past. I’m busier now than I was during the winter and have much less time for debate. Women were mentioned doing ministries, and I will not dispute that. As I said earlier, no woman is called out by name as being a pastor. But neither is there any man called out by name as being a pastor.

As for the Adam and Eve story, no punishment was given until after Adam sinned. Many on this site will contend the wife needs a covering, weaker vessel, etc. Husbands are a wife’s covering for many reasons. And it began with Adam and Eve.

I personally have no problem listening to a woman speaking in a church. However, I don’t believe I would be a member of a church with a woman pastor. I realize that could be an oxymoron, but it’s where I’m at.
 
1Timothy 3:11 may be the scripture you thought of. It says ‘women must likewise’ and some could take that as like the men. It is text about deacons. But, the English version in inconclusive.
 
Patricia C said:
What of the unmarried woman?
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I wouldn’t presume to judge individual circumstances, but I do believe that our Creator intentionally gave us a pattern.
 
rockfox said:
This idea of women stepping up leads to the argument that when women are leading/teaching/doing man's work it must be because men failed to step up and do their job. I disagree; that's usually just a cover story, the excuse, the rationalization. Envy is women's chief temptation and with it her desire to control her husband. These aren't God's backup plans. God's backup plan is for the woman to submit to her husband that he may be won without a word.

Just watch what happens when men try to step up and take charge again and you'll see the root cause of the action. They don't meekly step back aside, it takes an insurrection.
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That's the other side of the coin that @steve was also referring to, and it is true also. I just try and look at both sides of the coin.

The way I see it, God has designed women to be capable of filling in the gaps when a man is not available or willing to do so - just think of how some incredible single mothers manage to do the best they can on their own, or military wives when their husband is on deployment. This is a design feature. But, it is a design feature that Satan can easily exploit, and does to great effect. And when Satan exploits it you get feminism and all that goes along with it. Satan perverts everything - but he cannot create, only pervert. He cannot create a feature that doesn't exist before, only twist and pervert it to his own uses. Just as he perverts God-designed sexuality and turns it into abomination, or takes the chemicals that God intentionally placed in many herbs and encourages people to use them in extremely foolish ways.
 
More fuel for the fire. Popcorns done, feet up, let the fireworks begin!

Clement of Alexandria
Stromata 3 Chapter 6
Or do they also scorn the apostles? Peter and Philip had children, and Philip gave his daughters in marriage.

53. Even Paul did not hesitate in one letter to address his consort.The only reason why he did not take her about with him was that it would have been an inconvenience for his ministry. Accordingly he says in a letter: "Have we not a right to take about with us a wife that is a sister like the other apostles?" But the latter, in accordance with their particular ministry, devoted themselves to preaching without any distraction, and took their wives with them not as women with whom they had marriage relations, but as sisters, that they might be their fellow-ministers in dealing with housewives. I t was through them that the Lord's teaching penetrated also the women's quarters without any scandal being aroused. We also know the directions about women deacons which are given by the noble Paul in his second letter to Timothy.
 
Phillip said:
As for women in the scriptures holding a special place in the church, naming a few, Priscilla, Aquila and Phebe, I concede they were not mentioned as pastor. But I must add, I don’t believe any man was ever called out as a pastor either. With the exception of Jesus.

Since no man was called out as pastor, do we also exclude men from candidacy as pastor.
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The qualifications for pastor, among other things, include being a man (i.e. husband of one wife). And as you've aptly pointed out, there is no example to contradict this.
 
FollowingHim said:
The way I see it, God has designed women to be capable of filling in the gaps when a man is not available or willing to do so - just think of how some incredible single mothers manage to do the best they can on their own, or military wives when their husband is on deployment. This is a design feature. But, it is a design feature that Satan can easily exploit, and does to great effect. And when Satan exploits it you get feminism and all that goes along with it. Satan perverts everything - but he cannot create, only pervert. He cannot create a feature that doesn't exist before, only twist and pervert it to his own uses. Just as he perverts God-designed sexuality and turns it into abomination, or takes the chemicals that God intentionally placed in many herbs and encourages people to use them in extremely foolish ways.
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But practically speaking that is not how it plays out. There are no shortage of people who want to be pastors or teachers. Women are, through much effort, forcing themselves into these roles. The character of the situation isn't one of women reluctantly stepping up, it's of women assaulting the gates and men scheming in secret about how to convince those who'd hold to the scripture's to change and let women lead.

It's not a design feature. I've seen the fruit of women teachers over and over and over. It's bad. It would be better if they not step up at all. Is God not able to provide men apt for the task? There are women today leading mega churches with thousands of attendees. You mean to tell me among those thousands there is not 1 man who could preach a sermon? In every church there are men who could teach, but don't, because they haven't been allowed the opportunity or because they lack the encouragement to overcome their fears.

The church managed to get by without women leaders for 2000 years. I'm expected to believe we just now can't do without them, in this day and age with a highly educated populous and the most ever resources available for training and learning in leadership and doctrine.

Nor did God in the scriptures ever direct or excuse women taking over control. Instead he directs her to influence him for good by her submissive example; the very opposite of stepping up.
 
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