I think one of Andrew's wives has a little bit of prophetess in her, but she does not preach in church (that I have seen). If you want to know you have to ask her.
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Should a woman be a pastor?
- Thread starter Rose of Sharon
- Start date
I think one of Andrew's wives has a little bit of prophetess in her, but she does not preach in church (that I have seen). If you want to know you have to ask her.
This does not make any sense. This is mixing Greek mythology and Hebrew scripture. I doubt followers of Diana even believed in Adam and Eve.
Can you provide a reference?
This is what I was trying to get at. What exactly is Paul referring to here in his phrase "..as the law says.".
Where does it say it and exactly what does it say?
I believe when he says law he’s means Torah, and he’s specifically referring to Gen. 3. So i would say it’s probably a little of Genesis 2 and 3, creation order and the husband ruling in the relationship. I don’t think their is a specific command elsewhere in the Law.
1 Corinthians 14:34 KJV
[34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
Genesis 3:16 KJV
[16] Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
One of the great challenges in understanding Paul is his use of 'nomos' the Greek word for 'law.' He refers to multiple, I think seven, different 'laws' in his writing. Torah, oral law, law of sin, law of sin and death, law of life in Messiah Yeshua/Christ Jesus, etc.
He was dead set against oral law having authority over the Torah or being a requirement for salvation, but he does on ocassions draw principles from it that are valuable and his readers would have been aware of, presumably from his teaching visits.
Because there is no Torah commandment that clearly matches his statement, we can seek where he gets the inference or consider that he is possibly pulling a principle from the oral.... (not my favorite solution).
He may be drawing an inference that we miss due to our culture. The law said she was to be ruled. It could well be they saw one who speaks before the whole body as being in a position of authority (i.e. not ruled). It's the very opposite of submissiveness, subjection, or discretion. If you can't see how opposite it is, ask yourself: can you picture a lowly slave addressing the legislative assembly? Even questions are a form of teaching, sometimes the primary form, in the culture of that day.
When one addresses an assembly, one commands their attention, they listen to you, even heed you; you direct their minds by your words. Whether in Roman Senate or in the colonial assemblies or in the Greek schools; public address was how power over the polis was welded and expressed. A teacher wasn't a lowly paid servant in their culture as in ours, they were considered a master of others (a sentiment Christ also expressed).
It seems like Numbers 30 is a pretty good match. That is the ultimate submission.
Commentaries seem to point to Gen 3:16 and Num 30; making it a general point about women being under the rule of men. But it is also worth noting that to this day in Orthodox assemblies women are not allowed to read Torah. I couldn't come up with an OT basis for that except Deuteronomy 31:9-12, which was when all Israel was regularly brought together to hear the law read; and it was to be read only by men (specifically the priestly sons of Levi).
But that may bring up the real point. Teaching is inherently a priestly function. In the OT only men were priests.
Now thats an interesting point!
I'm taking the claim at face value, I can't verify it, but it seems credible enough.
Things to notice here:
1. For 1633 years all theologians everywhere held women could not preach or speak in church.
2. The first one to argue this was a women; quell surprise.
3. She did so in 1666; a rather notable year in a number of respects.
I've no doubt one will find many gems in her writings.
Obviously you are a master at understatement.
Diana (among the Romans) or Artemis (among the Greeks) was the Goddess of the Moon and of the hunt. She was the virgin protectress of woodlands and wild animals, and is often depicted with a bow and arrows, which were used to punish mortals who angered her. She was the twin sister of Apollo, and the daughter of Jupiter (Zeus) and Latona (Leto).
In Ephesus, however, the worship of the Goddess took a slightly different turn. Although the Ephesian temple is called the Temple of Artemis, there are striking differences between the traditional Greek and Roman Goddess and Diana of the Ephesians, who may have been based on an older, possibly Eastern or Egyptian deity. One primary difference is that the Greek Artemis and Roman Diana was intrinsically virginal, to such an extent that she turned the hunter Actaeon into a stag to be killed by his own hounds for just seeing her bathing. Diana of the Ephesians, however, was specifically honored for her fertility and her aspect as the nurturing mother. In fact, this aspect is the one reflected in the enduring image we have of her: the multi-breasted statue, supposedly carved from a stone that fell from the sky, found in the Temple of Artemis.
It is also interesting to note that Diana of the Ephesians was specifically singled out in the Bible as a chief competitor to the Christian God (see Acts, chapter 19).
THE CULT OF DIANA
From Acts 19 and we find that at the city of Ephesus was centered the Cult of Artemis, the Greek Goddess whom the Romans called Diana.
Although the Dianic cult was present throughout the Roman Empire and present as a secondary religion in all cities, it was in Ephesus alone, that the Cult of Diana was the primary religion and her Temple was one of the 7 Wonders of the Ancient World. The Temple existed for nearly 8 centuries prior to the appearance of Christianity and so massive it took over 220 years to construct.
The Temple was believed to have been built by the Amazons of legend, a maternalistic society of women in which the women were the warriors and the role of men was relegated to performing the household chores.
Men who served in the Temple were castrated and kept subjugated. It is thought by some that the round objects on the idol of Diana in the photo above represented the testicles of these castrated men. Artemis, or Diana, was the daughter of Zeus, and pledged herself as a perpetual virgin. She was the goddess of "childbearing" and protectress of women in childbirth. She was also a fierce hunter and death at childbirth was considered to be from the receipt of one of Diana's arrows. Diana was fiercely independent and spirited and vowed not to be associated with or subjected to a man remaining free in the wilderness with her band of female cherubic attendants. Diana sought above all to protect her chastity and personal space. Any man who attempted to violate her virginity and subjugate her by child bearing was killed. The Cult of Diana consisted mainly of women particularly young girls who joined the cult at puberty. If they married they had to leave the cult.
DIANA OF THE EPHESIANS
This heathen goddess is not merely referred to as “great” because of the praise and admiration she received. The same was a standing epithet, a proper name, distinguishing her from other inferior deities bearing the same name of Diana or Artemis. The great goddess Diana resembled the attributes of Ashtoreth (which see). She symbolized the generative and nutritive powers of nature, and so was represented with many breasts. Her original temple was founded 580 b.c., and burned by Erostratus in 356 b.c. The second temple, built in the reign of Alexander the Great in Ephesus, the capital of Asia, became a renowned center of the worship of Diana and was the idol “whom all Asia and the world worshipped.” A lucrative trade was developed by the silversmiths in silver replicas of Diana. As the result of Paul’s powerful ministry in Ephesus, not only were curious arts and books of divination burned, but the silver shrine of Diana trade also received its death blow. Through the intervention of the town clerk of Ephesus, Paul was saved from rough handling by the enraged silversmiths.
Diana, often posed as bathing as well as in her traditional guises, became a popular subject in Renaissance art. She and Apollo were sometimes pictured as a kind of pagan version of Adam and Eve.
Acts 19:24-40
24 For a man named Demetrius—a silversmith, a maker of silver shrines of Artemis—was providing no small amount of business to the craftsmen. 25 He gathered these together, along with those of related occupations, and he said, “Men, you know that our wealth is from this business. 26 You see and hear that not only in Ephesus but also throughout all Asia, Paul has persuaded and perverted a considerable crowd, saying that handmade gods are not gods at all. 27 Not only is there a danger that this trade of ours might come into disrepute, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis might be considered as nothing. She whom all Asia and the world worships might even be thrown down from her majesty.”
28 When they heard, they were filled with fury and began shouting, “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!” 29 The city was filled with confusion. They rushed into the theater, dragging with them Gaius and Aristarchus, Macedonians who were travel companions of Paul. 30 Paul was wishing to enter among the crowd, but the disciples would not let him. 31 Some of the chiefs of Asia, being his friends, sent to him and begged him not to surrender himself in the theater.
32 Now some cried out one thing, some another, for the assembly was in confusion. Most did not know why they had come together. 33 Some of the crowd solicited Alexander, whom the Jewish people put forward. Alexander motioned with his hand. He wished to offer a defense to the crowd. 34 But recognizing that he was Jewish, for about two hours they all with one voice cried out, “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!”
35 After the town clerk quieted the crowd, he said, “Men of Ephesus, what man is there who doesn’t know that the city of the Ephesians is temple keeper of the great Artemis and of her image fallen from heaven? 36 Since these things are undeniable, you must be calm and do nothing reckless. 37 For you have brought these men here who are neither sacrilegious nor revilers of our goddess. 38 If Demetrius and the craftsmen with him have a complaint against anyone, the courts are open and there are proconsuls. Let them accuse them. 39 But if you seek anything further, it will be settled in the lawful assembly. 40 For we are in danger of being charged with rioting today, there being no reason which we are able to give to justify this mob.” Upon saying this, he dismissed the assembly.
The history behind the reason for the Epeshians Letters.
Examples:
Ephesians 4
4 Therefore I, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you were called— 2 with complete humility and gentleness, with patience, putting up with one another in love, 3 making every effort to keep the unity of the Ruach in the bond of shalom.
4 There is one body and one Ruach,
just as you also were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one immersion;
6 one God and Father of all,
who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given in keeping with the measure of Messiah’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,
“When He went up on high,
He led captive a troop of captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 Now what does “He went up” mean, except that He first went down to the lower regions of the earth? 10 The One who came down is the same One who went up far above all the heavens, in order to fill all things.
11 He Himself gave some to be emissaries, some as prophets, some as proclaimers of the Good News, and some as shepherds and teachers— 12 to equip the kedoshim for the work of service, for building up the body of Messiah. 13 This will continue until we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of Ben-Elohim—to mature adulthood, to the measure of the stature of Messiah’s fullness. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be like children, tossed around by the waves and blown all over by every wind of teaching, by the trickery of men with cunning in deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all ways into Messiah, who is the Head. 16 From Him the whole body is fitted and held together by every supporting ligament. The proper working of each individual part produces the body’s growth, for building itself up in love.
17 So I tell you this, indeed I insist on it in the Lord—walk no longer as the pagans do, stumbling around in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance in them due to the hardness of their heart. 19 Since they are past feeling, they have turned themselves over to indecency for the practice of every kind of immorality, with greed for more.
20 However, you did not learn Messiah in this way— 21 if indeed you have heard Him and were taught in Him, as the truth is in Yeshua. 22 With respect to your former lifestyle, you are to lay aside the old self corrupted by its deceitful desires, 23 be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self—created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
25 So lay aside lying and “each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,”for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, yet do not sin.” Do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 nor give the devil a foothold. 28 The one who steals must steal no longer—instead he must work, doing something useful with his own hands, so he may have something to share with the one who has need. 29 Let no harmful word come out of your mouth, but only what is beneficial for building others up according to the need, so that it gives grace to those who hear it. 30 Do not grieve the Ruach ha-Kodesh of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness and rage and anger and quarreling and slander, along with all malice. 32 Instead, be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving each other just as God in Messiah also forgave you.
Ephesians 5
5 Therefore be imitators of God, as dearly loved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Messiah also loved us and gave Himself up for us as an offering and sacrifice to God for a fragrant aroma. 3 But sexual immorality and any impurity or greed—don’t even let these be mentioned among you, as is proper for kedoshim. 4 Obscene, coarse, and stupid talk are also out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 Know for certain that no immoral, indecent, or greedy person—who is really an idol worshipper at heart—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Messiah and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s judgment comes on the children of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them. 8 For once you were darkness, but now in union with the Lord you are light. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of light is in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Take no part in the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them— 12 for it is disgraceful even to mention the things that are done by them in secret. 13 Yet everything exposed by the light is being made visible, 14 for everything made visible is light. This is why it says,
“Wake up, O sleeper!
Rise from the dead,
and Messiah will shine on you.”
15 So pay close attention to how you walk—not as unwise people but as wise. 16 Make the most of your time because the days are evil. 17 For this reason do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18 And do not get drunk on wine, for that is recklessness. Instead, be filled with the Ruach, 19 speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making music in your heart to the Lord— 20 always giving thanks for everything to God the Father, in the name of the Lord Yeshua the Messiah.
21 Also submit yourselves to one another out of reverence for Messiah—22 wives to your own husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as Messiah also is head of His community—Himself the Savior of the body. 24 But as Messiah’s community is submitted to Messiah, so also the wives to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives just as Messiah also loved His community and gave Himself up for her 26 to make her holy, having cleansed her by immersion in the word. 27 Messiah did this so that He might present to Himself His glorious community—not having stain or wrinkle or any such thing, but in order that she might be holy and blameless. 28 In the same way, husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it—just as Messiah also does His community, 30 because we are members of His body. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is great—but I am talking about Messiah and His community. 33 In any case, let each of you love his own wife as himself, and let the wife respect her husband.
Paul's letters to Ephesians were addressing Greek Pagan practices being carried over.
Be that as it may, his instructions were not peculiar to them. All men everywhere are called out of the sinful practices of their various pagan ways and pointed to the same truth of Jesus Christ and holy practice. What he writes to the Ephesians is consistent with what was written to the Colossions, to Timothy, in the Old Law, and by Peter.
Whatever the local practice they came out of, the churches everywhere all had the same standard of male only teachers and elders; a tradition of the Apostles from that day forward for almost 2 millennia.
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I left out the part where some of the early writings were also connecting the pagan practices in Corthians that had female authority ingrained in them.
I'm confused did you regulate "the old law" to pagan practices that promoted female leadership? If the topic is should women be pastors, right? We are showing female usurping male headship and figuring out where it comes from, why throw in Torah?
I was pointing out what was relative to the thread and explaining where the info that @Phillip might of came from and it's basis in scripture. The opinions about Torah are just interpretation influenced by the reader personal beliefs.
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Settle down. That was a reference to Paul's "as also saith the law".
I just had to today show that Torah doesn't promote female leadership and run through all the female prophets and show that they never gave instruction just informed what God had said would happen. I'm still itching over that. People try to twist scripture and justify female headship and it makes me insane.
I get your frustration; people who seem set upon female headship seem impervious to logic and straightforward scripture truth. You can't derive female teaching or headship from female prophets; it's just grasping at straws to justify a belief they've gotten from the culture and don't want to let go.
Sounds like a lot of the women today that are asking where are all the good men at. Perhaps they should be asking where are all of the men that are willing to be castrated for the sake of servitude at?
J
James A
Guest
The mind body soul and emotions are all interconnected. When a lady is preaching to a body of believers she inherently adds her emotions and personal opnions and experiences therefore swaying away from Gods word in the message the men sitting there are seeing the swaying and emotional era but can not do anything because they are not there hushband so the man either confronts walks out or accepts that sway and sits and listens. The problem is the sitting and listening automotically reprograms the mans man to be more willing of such behavior on a daily basis