Stuff that is Abomination

[FollowingHim]

Yes, 'mixing' is a bit enigmatic. The closest I can come up with is hybridization (I tried planting multiple kinds of squash in the greenhouse years ago. Got a Pablum as a result...) Don't know as much about grapes, but the same makes sense for a vineyard, I suspect.

That's the best explanation I can come up with too, but it doesn't really seem to fit properly. Because undersowing wheat with clover is even more clearly sowing two kinds of seed, than sowing two varieties of wheat would be. But only the second could possibly have anything to do with hybridisation.

It would seem then that hybrid anything (cross pollination) is essentially not a good idea?

Most breeding programmes will involve cross pollination at some point. You cross the varieties with the different traits you want, and then select the offspring you want to get a stable new variety. The problem with hybridisation is that the next generation will have a wide variety of different traits so won't breed true - but that's exactly what you want at the early stages of a breeding program, you want that variation so you can find something good to be your new variety.

 

[Pacman]

One theory about pigs I have heard is that possibly they were a result of the offspring of the watchers (nephalim) committing bestiality. And that's why they are so genetically similar to humans... The universal negative connotation about swine throughout the Bible as well as the fact that the majority of the world considers them food; despite the direct and clear prohibition of that both past (Torah) and future (prophecy) sort of makes you wonder if it was something the adversary intentionally introduced for the purpose of deception.

 

[MeganC]

Paul says "study to show yourself approved." I listed tons of resources, and the evidence IS legion. And those enzymes are involved in the breakdown of dead flesh. Which is what pigs do.

If you were claiming that something was said in Scripture and I asked you to cite it would you give me vague references to a book and some other sources or would you cite the specific Scripture with chapter and verse?

I own RFK's book on Fauci. I've read it. It's quite disturbing.

Where in that book are you getting a reference to pork saying we should not eat it?

The only one I remember is this one:

“Like other Americans, I've reconciled myself to the idea that an animal's life has been sacified to bring me a meal of pork or chicken. However, industrial meat production -- which subjects animals to a life of torture -- has escalated the karmic costs beyond reconciliation.”

There is no reference to cadaverine or putrescine in the entire book.

Either do the work, or don't. This is not "too hard for you."

It's your claim. If you cannot back it up then by default your claim is disproven.

 

[Mark C]

It's your claim. If you cannot back it up then by default your claim is disproven.

Good grief. When silence in response to intellectual laziness constitutes "disproof" - you're in a sad state.

I own RFK's book on Fauci. I've read it. It's quite disturbing.

Where in that book are you getting a reference to pork saying we should not eat it?

I did NOT. I was talking about FAUCI, because your question was ambiguous. So I covered BOTH bases. (And there is no shortage of bogus bought-and-paid-for 'studies' on that front!)

And - one last time - just a little honest inquiry (not requiring some so-called "study", as I intended to make clear) is enough to show why pork is not good for someone. From their effluent tubes, to enzymes used to digest dead meat, to DNA, to historic pandemic origins, to their purpose as "garbage disposals of the land" -- it's a "no-brainer". You expect maybe the CCP or the Pork Institute to tell you that?

And NEITHER pigs' bodies, nor their digestive tracts, nor men's, were magically altered at the Resurrection,.

Oh, yeah - and there IS of course, Scripture. More than once. More than twice, even. Look it up for yourself; the question has been asked and answered.

But so is not taking the Poison Poke, I realize. And just try to talk someone who's bound and determined to try suicide-by-lethal injection out of that.

 

[steve]

Interesting fact;
When we were going into Mexico and back a bunch of times we become well aware of the laws about what could be brought back into the States.
Beef, raw or cooked, reasonable amounts no problem.
Chicken, cooked only, no raw allowed.
Pork, totally not allowed whether cooked or raw. Seeing a 10 pound chub of bologna sitting there in the sun that someone had attempted to bring back was a sight.

So someone in the system has a clue.

 

[Bartato]

Good grief. When silence in response to intellectual laziness constitutes "disproof" - you're in a sad state.


I did NOT. I was talking about FAUCI, because your question was ambiguous. So I covered BOTH bases. (And there is no shortage of bogus bought-and-paid-for 'studies' on that front!)

And - one last time - just a little honest inquiry (not requiring some so-called "study", as I intended to make clear) is enough to show why pork is not good for someone. From their effluent tubes, to enzymes used to digest dead meat, to DNA, to historic pandemic origins, to their purpose as "garbage disposals of the land" -- it's a "no-brainer". You expect maybe the CCP or the Pork Institute to tell you that?

And NEITHER pigs' bodies, nor their digestive tracts, nor men's, were magically altered at the Resurrection,.

Oh, yeah - and there IS of course, Scripture. More than once. More than twice, even. Look it up for yourself; the question has been asked and answered.

But so is not taking the Poison Poke, I realize. And just try to talk someone who's bound and determined to try suicide-by-lethal injection out of that.

Mark, you made a claim. Megan asked you to provide the evidence for it (which you apparently claimed to have). You then accuse her of being in a sad state of intellectual laziness.

That makes you sound like an arrogant windbag.

It doesn't mean you are wrong. It doesn't mean that pork is good for people's health. It's just obnoxious behavior.

 

[Bartato]

It's a good question and has no clear answers. Much has been said about pigs, and the fact that they are close biologically to humans and get many of the same diseases seems a sound enough biological reason for the prohibition. However, pigs are just one of a very long list of prohibited animals.

Some of it comes back to not eating carnivorous animals - but only some of it, and that is inconsistent.

Horses really don't make much sense. Why just ruminants? What is it about the gut of a horse, or a rabbit, that renders the flesh of these vegetarian animals unfit for human consumption? Or a fruit bat? I have no idea.

And fish are a very difficult one. Why is the distinction around scales? Sure it eliminates shellfish, which have known disease risks - often shellfish are prohibited from collection in a particular area for a period of time because of known disease problems. Eliminating them does remove a real health risk.

But most fish with scales are carnivores - basically all fish are carnivores. And fish that eat shellfish are fine. A major reason to not eat carnivores is that some toxins absorbed by a herbivore, like heavy metals, may be at a low level, but are then concentrated in the flesh of a carnivore that eats lots of those herbivores. So by this measure large carnivorous fish may in some cases be even more dangerous than shellfish.

Birds also. The elephant in the room is "can we eat chickens?". They're omnivores. This is a question that is best ignored, as to conclude the answer was "no" would have too many serious ramifications, especially for someone who has already eliminated pork from their diet and at least partially substituted it with chicken...

It would be great to understand the reasons behind it. But I don't know that there is a consistent biological reason - given the massive variety in the animals prohibited I struggle to see how the answer could possibly be biological. In some cases it may be solely a test of obedience to a random instruction.

Another instruction I find very difficult to understand is the prohibition on sowing multiple kinds of seed in a field. Mixed crops are a fundamental part of any regenerative farming strategy, and they mimic the natural environment that God himself designed. How do we reconcile God's design of mixed ecosystems with his prohibition on sowing mixed crops (at least "in the land" depending on your interpretation of where these laws apply)?

I figured the prohibition on sowing different kinds of seed in the same field (and the manufacture of garments with different materials) had more to do with idolatry than optimal soil management practices.

We don't hedge our bets by trusting both in the Lord, and baal, or ishtar. Maybe there is a link between monotheism and monoculture.

I also wonder if a field is different than a garden? Gardens always have tons of crops. The word field suggests larger scale production of agronomic crops.

In either case, I believe those specific commands were directed to the Israelites under that covenant, and in the promised land, not universal requirements for all people everywhere.

For those who believe that the Torah all still applies to us, do you observe this Law? Does it apply to intercropping in the garden?

A related question,
Do you have cities of refuge where the manslayer may flee?

 

[MeganC]

Good grief. When silence in response to intellectual laziness constitutes "disproof" - you're in a sad state.

It's your claim and your responsibility to back it up. Here it is again for you:

So is eating pork, as any honest study of "the science" (not to be confused with the Pagan High Priest Fauci version) will confirm. The more "science" learns, the more it turns out YHVH was Right All Along.

1. You mentioned Fauci. I did not.
2. You're still not posting any actual and reliable science that proves your assertion of the negative impacts of eating safely prepared pork.
On the opposing side I can find non-vegan, non-vegetarian biased articles promoting the safe preparation and consumption of pork such as:

Cooking pork safely: the science

Authoritative advice on cooking pork safely from the chefs' bible, Modernist Cuisine

www.theguardian.com

Myself, I cook fresh pork roasts by searing them and then boiling them for about four hours. That's a more than safe sustained cooking temperature of 100C or 212F.

We tend not to eat ham and I rarely buy it. Not because of the pork but because of the chemicals that are used in commercial curing. I also eschew corned beef, pastrami, and other similar beef products for the same reasons.

Our bacon is salt cured and frozen for thirty days minimum before use and then I cook it in a 350F oven on a cookie sheet. Again, well in excess of the 'safe' temperature of 140F.

What I will not serve to my family is:

Raw pork
Undercooked pork
Uncured or unfrozen bacon
Wild pork

 

[smilingjack]

As I read through early scriptures I run across the word "Abomination". It was taught to me that it meant "sin" so therefore eating clams and ospreys and horses and dogs was sinful. I just didn't know really what this "sin" was. Upon recall the old book, "None of These Diseases" I remembered the cleanliness aspect and it starts to make sense. I always want to know the why behind the wherefore. If we can loosely substitute the word dirty or unsanitary in place of abomination it then begins to make more sense. If eating clams and oysters is unsanitary, why? They are filter feeders and their job is to remove the dirty dead decaying stuff from the water(presumably from people and animals defecating in the waters), process it to be less harmful to aquatic critters. When the clam is eaten it is the filter that is consumed and all the crap with it. Not very sanitary. So, armed with that as a background, what are the other things that are considered abomination and why? This of course is a bit of conjecture based on the rules of sanitation. GO!

A great resource, in my opinion, for the why answer is Talmud. You can get the Sefaria Talmud here. Especially Kashrut opinions (Chullin). They are complicated haha. And where do birds fit? Mystery haha. And then there is the issue of John the Baptist's diet and Deuteronomy 14:19, yikes.

I can't confirm it, but I heard that kosher slaughterhouses are exempt from USDA regulations because they are so clean. Even though the Bible doesn't tell us why, I can assume that in most cases it was for health, and in others, it was what made them different from their pagan neighbors. The big difference I think was the food pairings. Can't have milk with your steak! Halal diets are interesting to me for this same reason. They don't have the food pairing concerns Kosher rules have, but it is interesting that they both are worried about things like blood and 'dirty' food sources and making sure the food is prepared properly.

The why, as total speculation, could be: You can get hepetitis from bad oysters or clams. Vultures eat rotten meat and have horrible bacteria that the eater would consume. Similar issue with pork - pork just isn't very beneficial for you anyway. Puffer fish, barracuda, and toads are poisonous and frankly top of the list animals for me to ask God, WHY? haha. I feel like McDonalds should be on this list somewhere haha!

 

[smilingjack]

What I will not serve to my family is:

Raw pork
Undercooked pork
Uncured or unfrozen bacon
Wild pork

We literally had roasted pork loin last night haha. It's rare that we eat pork. Not for anything, but we just like beef better haha.

 

[LDremoved]

In either case, I believe those specific commands were directed to the Israelites under that covenant, and in the promised land, not universal requirements for all people everywhere.

I was just asking someone about this in PM. I thought those passages were directed to the Israelites. I'm always so confused if we as Christians need to obey those as well? I may make another thread asking my questions once I get them in order.

 

[Michael Moon]

I was just asking someone about this in PM. I thought those passages were directed to the Israelites. I'm always so confused if we as Christians need to obey those as well? I may make another thread asking my questions once I get them in order.

We are grafted on... onto what? Israel. Adopted or not, the Assembly of Israel is the body of Christ. "If ye love me, keep my commandments".

 

[LDremoved]

We are grafted on... onto what? Israel. Adopted or not, the Assembly of Israel is the body of Christ. "If ye love me, keep my commandments".

True, this is just one example. I have other questions as well but I won't derail this thread. Thank you

 

[LDremoved]

It's your claim and your responsibility to back it up. Here it is again for you:



1. You mentioned Fauci. I did not.
2. You're still not posting any actual and reliable science that proves your assertion of the negative impacts of eating safely prepared pork.
On the opposing side I can find non-vegan, non-vegetarian biased articles promoting the safe preparation and consumption of pork such as:

Cooking pork safely: the science

Authoritative advice on cooking pork safely from the chefs' bible, Modernist Cuisine

www.theguardian.com

Myself, I cook fresh pork roasts by searing them and then boiling them for about four hours. That's a more than safe sustained cooking temperature of 100C or 212F.

We tend not to eat ham and I rarely buy it. Not because of the pork but because of the chemicals that are used in commercial curing. I also eschew corned beef, pastrami, and other similar beef products for the same reasons.

Our bacon is salt cured and frozen for thirty days minimum before use and then I cook it in a 350F oven on a cookie sheet. Again, well in excess of the 'safe' temperature of 140F.

What I will not serve to my family is:

Raw pork
Undercooked pork
Uncured or unfrozen bacon
Wild pork

What do I have to do to get a MeganC pork roast recipe?

 

[FollowingHim]

And then there is the issue of John the Baptist's diet and Deuteronomy 14:19, yikes.

What is the problem with John the Baptist's diet? Locusts are specifically permitted in Torah.
What does Deuteronomy 14:19 have to do with anything?

I can't confirm it, but I heard that kosher slaughterhouses are exempt from USDA regulations because they are so clean.

Kosher meat processing has almost nothing to do with scriptural requirements, it's largely talmudic. Scripture is clear - don't kill by strangling, kill in a way that results in the blood draining out properly. That's all there is to it - and that's how any normal slaughterhouse works and how anyone doing homekill properly will do it too. Kosher rules add a whole lot of additional processing to ruin the meat by removing all the red juices in the false perception that these are "blood". In the case of meat, Halal is a whole lot closer to scripture than Kosher is.

 

[Mark C]

Mark, you made a claim. Megan asked you to provide the evidence for it (which you apparently claimed to have). You then accuse her of being in a sad state of intellectual laziness.

I actually WROTE the following. IN FULL:

Why is the prohibition against bestiality a "no-brainer" any more than His other prohibitions?

Turns out that sodomy is a virtual-lock on early death.

BTW - I now notice I didn't get any demands for a "study" to confirm that...

So is eating pork, as any honest study of "the science" (not to be confused with the Pagan High Priest Fauci version) will confirm. The more "science" learns, the more it turns out YHVH was Right All Along.

This was my real point. But I did add some "evidence", that could be called a study...having to do with the history of 'pandemics' - prior to the widespread advent of bioweapon engineering, which, as it turns out, utilized the principle I noted:

(My own journey to obedience came years ago in the form of a 'popular science' article I read shortly after being exposed to what really IS food and is not, almost as if He was showing me...I still recall the headline: "Science discovers Pig DNA Closest to Human," which is why, they noted - again, prior to Fauci and ubiquitous bio-weapons, which use the understanding for obvious reasons - 'every major pandemic came through pigs to 'jump the species barrier' to humans.)

Over the years I came across LEGIONS more information, from the pig "waste vents" to wonderful enzymes in their flesh like "putrescene" and "cadaverene". Umm, good!

Not 'studies'. Physical, observable evidence. As was the following:

And, guess what, shellfish are the 'pigs of the sea' - bottom feeders that eat dead stuff. And they absorb a WHOLE lot of heavy metals, too. Mercury, arsenic, and so on.

We should obey because "if you love Me, keep My commands." And He promises a blessing for obedience, and curses for rebellion. Like the Booga-booga flus, poxes, and plagues. (See Deut. 28:60-61, and think 'bio-weapon'.)

Again, note the citation, article with title, and the easily-verifiable PHYSICAL evidence, that does NOT require any "studies". All it requires is what I said: a bit of looking. Or even reading the whole thing.

You're still not posting any actual and reliable science...

And again, good grief. Thus my reference to Fauci and "actual and reliable science." People die for such nowadays.

You wanna eat pork? Go ahead. I won't argue with those who find "studies" - paid for by who knows - more valuable than the Word of YHVH. But REAL 'science' includes experiment, eye-witness examination, physical testing. All of which is "legion" - easy to verify - and literally even see for yourself.

Besides, who's gonna fund a 'study' that says, "don't take my shot," or "don't eat my product?"

[Aside: Can anyone cite a "study" that says 'tons of vinyl chloride burned into phosgene and dioxin are no problem, go ahead and come on back..." ]

2. You're still not posting any actual and reliable science that proves your assertion of the negative impacts of eating safely prepared pork.

NOWHERE does His Word say, you can eat "safely prepared abomination".

There's no such thing. But your phrasing reveals what really matters to you. And it isn't evidence, or you'd simply go to a pig farm and ask.

And I no longer argue with those who want to commit suicide by lethal injection either. I can't stop 'em. But...but...The Science says it's "safe and effective" -- even if it, too, destroys your immune system.

Guess what? It's an even tougher argument to refute from Scripture than not eating abomination:
Leviticus 11, Deuteronomy 14, and Deuteronomy 28:60-61 (et al) for those still too 'intellectually lazy' to look 'em up for themselves.

I've written on THIS SITE - and even on this topic - for more years than most of you have even been here. And even THAT is easy to search. And talked about why NOT to take the Poison Poke, too. But I won't hold people's hands who REALLY don't want to read, much less study, much less walk in obedience.

And if you think THAT make me...

sound like an arrogant windbag

...you should've heard what I said to the last "doctor" who wanted me to take his mRNA injection!

(Turns out he didn't really care about "studies", either.)


True confession: I'm an engineer. Had to "study for myself" - for a long time - to even believe that His Word WAS in fact, His Word. And that it was worth obeying. This topic - food - was among three (one of the others was marriage, and polygyny - surprise!) that helped convince me I had "inherited lies from my fathers." And I've talked to dozens, if not hundreds, of farmers, ranchers, nutritionists, holistic health professionals, HONEST doctors (becoming more rare), veterinarians, and authors over the years since who confirm that information. I had to be convinced. I understand skepticism. As I said, since then, I see the evidence pile up.

But I stand by my objection to intellectual laziness.

 

[Mark C]

I thought those passages were directed to the Israelites. I'm always so confused if we as Christians need to obey those as well?

"Kol Israel" in the first five Books, is "all of the mixed multitude:" that came out of bondage. That to which Shaul/Paul wrote we could be "grafted in" (Romans 11). He suggests we should WANT to be. Much of xtianity now says otherwise.

BTW, some commandments in 'the Torah' are said to be specifically for "in the land." What is, and is not, food, however, isn't among those. As should be clear today, things that cause harm to our bodies seem to function just fine all over the world.

 

[FollowingHim]

Halal diets are interesting to me for this same reason. They don't have the food pairing concerns Kosher rules have, but it is interesting that they both are worried about things like blood and 'dirty' food sources and making sure the food is prepared properly.

I should point out that in New Zealand almost all meat is halal slaughtered, so that they can take any package of meat and slap a halal label if it's being shipped to Indonesia and leave the label off if it's going to the USA. So what is halal slaughter?

It means the animal is stunned with an electric shock or captive bolt gun, then the jugular vein is cut to drain out the blood - in other words, standard slaughterhouse practice. The only difference is that there is some guy standing watching and pretending to pray while this happens. It's the most cushy job in the slaughterhouse and largely regarded as a joke.

Halal has no greater concern about food safety than any standard slaughterhouse practice.

 

[MeganC]

NOWHERE does His Word say, you can eat "safely prepared abomination".

“There is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man. [” If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”] When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Mark 7:15-19

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.”

1 Timothy 4:1-5

One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

Romans 14:2

By the way, this is me backing up my claims as opposed to simply throwing out a claim and then calling you lazy for not backing up MY argument.

 

[Bartato]

I was just asking someone about this in PM. I thought those passages were directed to the Israelites. I'm always so confused if we as Christians need to obey those as well? I may make another thread asking my questions once I get them in order.

This is a complicated issue and there are multiple aspects of it.

In short, I would say that God sometimes gives different commands to different people at different times, and that many of these passages were directed to the Israelites living in the ancient theocracy of Israel.

Look at the Law of God as it pertains to food.

Genesis 1:29 God gave Adam and Eve only plants to eat. They were vegans.

"And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food."

Genesis 9:3 God gave Noah and his family permission to eat every kind of animal.

"Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs."

This "every" means what it says and clearly includes pigs, eel, catfish, rabbits, and various other "unclean" animals.

It is worth noting that Genesis 7:2-3 talks about some animals being "clean", and these were apparently used for sacrifices. That doesn't change the fact that God defines all animals as potential food for mankind in Genesis 9:3.

In Leviticus 11, God gives the Israelites the dietary laws that we are largely discussing here. These Laws are from God. They are good and holy.

In Mark 7:18 Christ declared all foods clean

In Acts 10:15 God declares the unclean Gentile people now clean (and the formerly unclean animals now also clean).

Yes, Yahweh and Yeshua have the authority to declare things and people clean!

In Acts 15 the Holy Spirit via the apostles and elders explicitly tells all of us Gentile believers that we are NOT REQUIRED to keep the Law of Moses.

That doesn't mean that the Law isn't good, helpful, useful, or informative to us, but we are saved by Christ, not the Law.

In Galatians, Paul rebukes the church for listening to those who would try to force them to keep the Law of Moses.

It seems to be fine if you want to follow the Levitical food laws (as many people here do). One might even argue that it is better to do so.

On the other hand it also seems fine for Christians to eat pork and other things with thankful hearts giving praise to God.

Those who try to force Christians to obey the Law of Moses for salvation (rather than trusting Christ) are called false brothers (Galatians 2:4) and are under the curse of God (Galatians 1:9).