Torah keepers and sacred name.

[^_^]

See, here's the problem and the question that I think just might contain the answers, if we can figure this one out, then it might ALL make sense.

This new covenant, spoken of in Jeremiah, and repeated in Hebrews, when does it take full effect?
It is obvious we have a new covenant, it's been cut, sealed and is as good as done. The question is, Is it done yet?
With the covenant with Abraham, that his seed would be as the stars and as the sand of the sea. Did he live to see the promise fulfilled? It was a new covenant to him, but did he live to see it completed?
Again, with David, the new covenant to him was that the Moshiach would come through his seed, of the tribe of Judah. Doubtless he had the covenant, but again, did he live to see it done?

When I read Jeremiah and Hebrews, one thing sort of stands out to me, that part of the covenant was the the laws would be written on our hearts, we would have no need to tell our neighbors "Know Yahweh" because all would know him, from the least to the greatest. I dunno about you, but I'm still out witnessing.... It's also obvious that the law of righteousness isn't written on everyone's heart, because even the most devout believer today will admit to still sinning occasionally and needing to repent and ask for forgiveness.

My point is, yes, we have a new covenant, it's been cut with blood, the most precious blood possible, it stands forever, cleansing and redeeming. But it is clear there is much much more to come, every writer in the New Testament points towards this. My viewpoint is that we are still looking through a glass darkly, and when we see face to face, THEN is when the promises in the new covenant are unfurled.

 

[Anonymous]

This new covenant, spoken of in Jeremiah, and repeated in Hebrews, when does it take full effect?
It is obvious we have a new covenant, it's been cut, sealed and is as good as done. The question is, Is it done yet?
With the covenant with Abraham, that his seed would be as the stars and as the sand of the sea. Did he live to see the promise fulfilled? It was a new covenant to him, but did he live to see it completed?
Again, with David, the new covenant to him was that the Moshiach would come through his seed, of the tribe of Judah. Doubtless he had the covenant, but again, did he live to see it done?

That's an excellent question. Now, are we speaking of a covenant or a promise? The Old (Mosaic) Covenant began at Sinai, while the fulfillment of the promise was still 40 years away. The fact that they had not yet reached the promised Canaan land did not invalidate the fact that the Mosaic Covenant was already in full force at Sinai.

The New (Messianic) Covenant began at the cross, while the fulfillment of the promise was something the disciples were still looking forward to. The fact that they had not yet reached their promised "land" did not invalidate the fact that the Messianic Covenant was already in full force at the cross.

The disciples were anxiously awaiting the big event that Jesus had promised them. What did Jesus Himself say about when these events would take place?

Matt. 16:27-28: "For the Son of Adam is going to come in the esteem of His Father with His messengers, and then He shall reward each according to his works. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death at all until they see the Son of Adam coming in His reign."

"in the esteem of His Father"
"with His messengers (angels)"
"reward each according to his works"

What event is Jesus speaking about here? He certainly seems to be saying in clear terms that some of those standing with Him there would not die until He came, with His angels, rewarding each according to his works. Was Jesus wrong?

Matt. 24:29-34: "And immediately after the distress of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Adam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Adam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. And learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that the summer is near. So YOU also, when YOU see all these, know that He is near, at the doors. Truly, I say to YOU, THIS generation shall by no means pass away until ALL this takes place. The heaven and the earth shall pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away."

What event is Jesus speaking about here? What event is heralded by the sound of the trumpet, with His angels coming and gathering His chosen ones? Jesus said the generation right there in front of Him would not pass away until ALL these events take place. Jesus was telling them that ALL these things would happen in THEIR lifetime. Was Jesus wrong?

Jesus promised His listeners that some of them would still be alive to witness all the events He described. He promised that their generation would not pass away until all these events took place. He promised heaven and earth would pass away, but that His words would continue beyond the "heaven and earth" that would pass away.

We all agree that the Messianic Covenant began in 30AD with the blood of Jesus, regardless whether we believe the promised Kingdom has arrived or not. But the issue I was trying to clarify was if and when the Old Mosaic Covenant had ended. We know the Mosaic Covenant was TEMPORARY. It came into effect at a particular point in time and was to last only until another point in time.

Gal. 3:17: "Now this I say, Torah, that came four hundred and thirty years later, does not annul a covenant previously confirmed by Elohim in Messiah, so as to do away with the promise."

Gal. 3:19a: "Why, then, the Torah? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to whom the promise was made."

The Torah began 430 years after Abraham was given the promise. It was to end when the Seed, to whom the promise was made, would come. Most Christians have been taught that the Mosaic Covenant ended when the New Covenant began, but that thinking actually contradicts Scripture.

2 Cor. 3:11: "For if that which is passing away was esteemed, much more that which remains in esteem."

25 years after the cross, Paul says the law is only "passing away". It hadn’t passed away just yet.

Heb. 8:13: "By saying new, He has made the first old. Now what becomes old and growing aged is near disappearing."

35 years after the cross, the author of Hebrews tells us that the Mosaic Covenant was only BECOMING old and GROWING aged and NEAR disappearing. It was ready to disappear but it hadn’t quite disappeared just yet. What was the hold up? They were waiting for the promise to be fulfilled.

Heb. 9:8-9a: "the Set-apart Spirit signifying this, that the way into the Most Set-apart Place was not yet made manifest while the first Tent is still standing, which is a parable for the present time"

The way into the true Holy of Holies was not YET made manifest. The Temple was symbolic of the present Mosaic age they were still living in. They were waiting for the end of their Mosaic age and for the Messianic age that was still to come. Until the Temple was no longer standing, until “heaven and earth” passed away, until “all be done”, the entire Mosaic Covenant was to remain in force.

I'm sorry for dragging a bunch of eschatological issues into this discussion, but the truth regarding any modern-day application of the Mosaic Law is ultimately tied directly to the timing of the end of the Mosaic Covenant. If nothing else, I hope we have something new to think about. All the answers are right there in Scripture -- we just need to dig.

In His love,
David

 

[^_^]

here again though, your questions raises even more questions, and I'm not having trouble with that, just making an observation.

what law was to be written on our hearts, spoken of in both Jeremiah and Hebrews as part of the new covenant?
and if Torah was added because of transgression, what law was being transgressed if there was no law?
how does the new covenant spoken of in Jeremiah and Hebrews become a Messianic covenant? it's not referred to as such in either rendition, is that our logical jump? indeed, have our sins been blotted out at this point in time, and at what point is "Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us." actually done?
This also is part of the new covenant promise "Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." If he doesn't remember our sins anymore as part of this new covenant some say we currently live in, why then does he bring our sin to our remembrance? Why is it spoken in "Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. " about nations who refuse to come to Jerusalem to keep the feast not getting rain? At what point in time did/does this happen?

John the prophet, in Revelations seems to have seen a Temple in the millenial reign, so it appears to me that another temple will be built on this earth, before the heavens roll back like a scroll, before the elements melt with fervent heat, something Peter seems to have understood as this earth literally being consumed, which from all appearances has to happen before the new heaven and new earth come to be.
I cannot say I understand how or why this all happens, my point is more that we should fear and tremble in front of an almighty Elohim, and listen to his words. It was the tempter who pointed us away from listening to his voice in the beginning, I fear once again it's him diverting us again. He uses our own minds against us, never quite lying, but never telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth either.

 

[Mark C]

...Then we are in agreement that Scripture is clear and that He is consistent. My apologies if I misunderstood what you were actually saying...

Thanks, David. I admit, I was starting to get a bit frustrated. My apologies if I let that show too much...

If "heaven and earth" pass away, and with them some or all of the Mosaic Law, where does that leave us regarding an unchanging God? Must He change His nature to permit these things to pass away?

I have always read that to mean that His character, in particular, is consistent. Having MADE rules, He abides by them. He keeps His Covenants, declares Himself through His prophets. And I have suggested before that "Torah" is better translated in many cases as His "teaching and instruction" than merely "law"; much of what He teaches us is an UNDERSTANDING based on how He constructed the universe. (Neither our DNA, nor that of pigs, changed when Yeshua's sacrifice was "finished". The penalty for the CURSE was satisfied, but the physical blessings associated with reading the "Owner's Manual" for our lives didn't change. After the eventual, great and terrible Day of the Lord, especially when no flesh survives, I expect that new bodies, a new heaven, and a new earth, may get new instructions as well.


To give any more detailed answer from my own perspective would amount to a departure from the main topic, and probably a lot more "Markology" than Scripture-specific commentary. Suffice it to say that I have often referred to a hypothetical "Minimum Necessary Miracle" principle, where God does not violate His own laws of physics, even for the Big Ones; we just may not understand how He did it.

At the point when "Heaven and Earth pass", all bets are simply off, I presume. Maybe He has a Design for a new universe where the characteristic impedance of free space, c, and the particle mass ratios are all different...

 

[Anonymous]

what law was to be written on our hearts, spoken of in both Jeremiah and Hebrews as part of the new covenant?

I would say the exact same law that existed before the Mosaic law. The same law that Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph had. The same law that condemned Cain for murder. The same law that condemned the population of Sodom and Gomorrah for sodomy. The same law that would have condemned Abimelech for committing adultery with Sarah, had God not intervened. The same eternal law that has always mattered to God and that had nothing at all to do with ceremony, sacrifice, ritual or redemption.

Some people call this "Moral law", "Ethical law", "Eternal law" or the "Law of Nature", but let's look at Isaiah chapter 1 to see how God Himself described it.

Isaiah 1:1a: "The vision of Yeshayahu son of Amots, which he saw concerning Yehudah and Yerushalayim..."

So we know the subject is a vision regarding Judah and Jerusalem.

Isaiah 1:2: "Hear, O heavens, and listen, O earth! For Yahweh has spoken, "I have reared and brought up children, but they have transgressed against Me."

Take note as to whom He is addressing: Hear, O heavens! Listen, O earth! There's another clue right there.

Isaiah 1:10: "Hear the word of Yahweh, you rulers of Sedom; give ear to the Torah of our Ehohim, you people of Amorah!"

He spiritually refers to them as rulers of Sodom and as people of Gomorrah. Remember the specified audience here is Jerusalem and Judah. Heavens and earth. Rulers and people. The symbolism is striking if you see the implications.

Now here's where it gets good. In verse 10, they are told to listen to the Torah of our God. Then in verses 11-14, we are given an entire list of things that God claims to detest.

Isaiah 1:11-14: "Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?", declares Yahweh. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats. When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards? Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, the calling of meetings – I am unable to bear unrighteousness and assembly. My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them."

1. Slaughtering of animals
2. Futile offerings
3. Incense
4. New moon (monthly) observances
5. Sabbaths
6. Calling of meetings
7. Appointed times

Take a careful look at this list of things that God says He hates in Isaiah 1. He just finished telling them to "listen to the law of our God", followed by certain elements of the Mosaic Law. What do they all have in common?

Then, look how the passage continues. Look at the things that God mentions regarding His actual requirements for His people to stop doing evil, all the way through to verse 23.

Isaiah 1:16-17,21-23: "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Stop doing evil! Learn to do good! Seek right-ruling, reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow...How the steadfast city has become a whore! I have filled it with right-ruling; righteousness lodged in it, but now murderers. Your silver has become dross, your wine is mixed with water. Your rulers are stubborn, and companions of thieves. Everyone loves bribes, and runs after rewards. They do not defend the fatherless, nor does the cause of the widow reach them."

1. Right-ruling (justice)
2. Relieving the oppressed
3. Defending the fatherless (orphans) and widows
4. Whoring
5. Murder
6. Debasement of the currency (fraud)
7. Watering down the wine (dishonesty)
8. Stubbornness
9. Theft
10. Bribery
11. Idolatry of rewards (money)

The contrast should be apparent. The first list, which God Himself says He despises, is comprised of the "added law" given at Sinai but which have absolutely nothing to do with God's eternal moral values. The second list, which God says He desires, is comprised of things which God has always required of all men, whether Jew or gentile, whether pre-Mosaic or post-Mosaic, and are entirely based on God's eternal moral values that never change. This conclusion is inescapable.

and if Torah was added because of transgression, what law was being transgressed if there was no law?

See above. I think it was summed up best by our Savior when He said...

Matthew 22:37-40: "And Yahushua said to him, "'You shall love Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great command. And the second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself.' On these two commands hang all the Torah and the Prophets."

As I understand Scripture, there has always been an eternal moral law that applies to all men in all ages. This is the same law that existed for everyone prior to Moses. It is the same law that applied to the gentiles during the time of Israel. It is the same law that applies to everyone today. It is NOT the same as the Torah or the Mosaic Law.

* * * I will now speak my OPINION, subject to my eschatological views derived from Scripture. * * *

In my opinion, the Mosaic Law has completely ended. All of it has ended. Even the Big 10. They are no more or less significant than any other element of the Mosaic Law. That covenant passed away in 70AD, during the generation that Jesus said would witness the end of that age. So if you come across a law anywhere in Scripture that happened to be recorded as part of the Mosaic Covenant, all you need do is determine if the gentile nations were obligated to obey it, either before or during the nation of Israel. If it was required of the gentile nations, then it was always an eternal law of God, it still applies today, and the fact that it also happened to be included in the Mosaic Law is incidental. Eternal law trumps Mosaic law. Had the command not to commit murder not been specifically included in the Mosaic Law, it would still have applied to Israel just as it applied to the gentiles. It was simply codified as part of their covenantal contract but murder was always a sin, whether the person was under the Mosaic covenant or not.

You other questions are excellent as well, but perhaps we should start a different thread if we're going to try to tackle eschatology specifically. I also want to make sure these passages are building up and not tearing down. If this knowledge isn't helping to strengthen the body, I'd rather remain silent. I already feel like I'm monopolizing this conversation. Perhaps others would like to comment on the time statements in Scripture that have been presented. My only reason for opening this can of worms was to address the intended life span of the Mosaic Law/Torah.

In His love,
David

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks, David. I admit, I was starting to get a bit frustrated. My apologies if I let that show too much...

No problems at all, my man. We're both on the same team, playing for the same coach. We've just studied in different areas so we naturally have differences of opinions. The important thing is that we continue to love one another and edify one another as we humble ourselves and continue to seek the truth from God's Word. The minute I think I know it all, I stop learning and growing. This patriarchal/polygynous community of ours represents the 5% of Believers out there that are willing to actually crack open their Bibles and study His Word for themselves, so we've already got a leg up on the majority. Let's continue to work together as Bereans, receiving the Word with eagerness and examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things are so.

In His love,
David

 

[DaPastor]

Hello Everyone,

First of all, I want to thank everyone for not allowing this to degenerate into an Achmed the Dead Terrorist "I keeeeeel you" discussion. There is really no need for that. I think we can discuss theology here without hurting one another. If everyone would admit it, we all have changed our views a few times over the years, so to "get up in arms" over theological disagreements is absurd - next year you might all be in different corners...lol !!!

So with that said, I would like to chime in some more:

I find myself in the middle of both sides. I do not see all aspects of the Law are applicable, nor do I see the abandonment of the Law either. I come down on the side of that says the Moral Law is still applicable and all of it's components, though some punishments have been clearly changed under the New Covenant.

I do believe that the Isaiah passages that have been presented actually state my position. All those things that are included in what should be practiced are those things that are included in the big 10 categories. The big 10 are nothing more then general Law. The other Laws are case Law and are to be parsed out into the general Law categories. So the following list located in Isaiah are really part of the big 10.

1. Right-ruling (justice)
2. Relieving the oppressed
3. Defending the fatherless (orphans) and widows
4. Whoring
5. Murder
6. Debasement of the currency (fraud)
7. Watering down the wine (dishonesty)
8. Stubbornness
9. Theft
10. Bribery
11. Idolatry of rewards (money)

Those who say that ALL of the Law still applies, do you make sure that your fibers are not mixed?

Neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee." -- Leviticus 19:19

Do you make sure your beard isn't rounded?

"Ye shall not round the corners of your heads." -- Leviticus 19:27

Do you make sure that you do not hold hands, touch, or kiss your wife for a season each month?

"When a woman has a discharge of blood, which is her regular discharge from her body, she shall be in her impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening." -- Leviticus 15:19-20

If you got into a physical fight with another man, and your wife jumped in and grabbed the private parts of the other man, would you cut her hand off?

"When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand." -- Deuteronomy 25:11-12

I could go on, but you obviously get the point.

On the other side, what does it really mean that the Mosaic Law has ended? Does this mean that the Moral Law ended? How are Christians to determine what is right and wrong? If we don't use the Bible as our standard of civil justice, what shall we use? Is the Bible our standard for personal morality, for family morality, for business ethics? Do we throw away the Old Covenant because it doesn't have any practical value anymore?

When Apostle Paul wrote Timothy he told him that "All Scripture was profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness" It is quite obvious that the New Testament isn't being referred to here. So, is Paul wrong?

This passage suggests that believers can use the Old Testament for teaching others truths, but not merely "head" truths, but truths that bring personal reproof and correction. Moreover, this passages suggest that the Old Covenant Scriptures can be used to teach believers how to live righteous lives!

If you look at the passage after that, it says, "That the man of God may be perfect (mature), thoroughly furnished (equipped) unto ALL GOOD WORKS". How can this be if the Moral Law has been eliminated?

More thoughts in my next post

 

[^_^]

This is interesting, I've had similar discussions, and it's always funny how people do see things differently.
While most take the text

Isaiah 1:11-14: "Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?", declares Yahweh. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats. When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards? Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, the calling of meetings – I am unable to bear unrighteousness and assembly. My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them."

to mean he hated the sacrificial system he himself appointed, I see it as a system that had degraded into a system of Indulgences like the Catholic church did in Luther's day. That while they said they were following Yahweh, indeed they were not, just doing the motions and pretending to repent and be righteous all the while following as perverted a way as they could.

I find it interesting that while the Temple is recorded as destroyed and the nation of Israel/Judah dispersed about 70CE, almost all the commentators put Revelations written around 90 CE, and some of the other writings in a similar timeframe. Yet even close to the end of Paul's life, when he was captured in Jerusalem, he was at the temple, yet not one author mentions the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as the 'end of the age', so I wonder what authority do we have to declare it as such. Again, this is a question, please don't take it as an affront.
I have many questions, and while I get many anwers, it appears like most answers are opinions, so I always want to know what authority declares things so

 

[Mark C]

...you obviously get the point.

On the other side, what does it really mean that the Mosaic Law has ended? Does this mean that the Moral Law ended? How are Christians to determine what is right and wrong? If we don't use the Bible as our standard of civil justice, what shall we use? Is the Bible our standard for personal morality, for family morality, for business ethics? Do we throw away the Old Covenant because it doesn't have any practical value anymore?

When Apostle Paul wrote Timothy he told him that "All Scripture was profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness" It is quite obvious that the New Testament isn't being referred to here. So, is Paul wrong?

This passage suggests that believers can use the Old Testament for teaching others truths, but not merely "head" truths, but truths that bring personal reproof and correction. Moreover, this passages suggest that the Old Covenant Scriptures can be used to teach believers how to live righteous lives!

If you look at the passage after that, it says, "That the man of God may be perfect (mature), thoroughly furnished (equipped) unto ALL GOOD WORKS". How can this be if the Moral Law has been eliminated?...

Well stated, Pastor Randy. While we may still have a few minor disagreements on some specifics (for example, since my wives have READ Deut. 25, and will almost certainly AVOID grabbing another man's privates, any other cuttings are merely academic ) I find little to argue with in your summary.

I have often stated that it is the "CURSE of the Law" from which we have been redeemed, and not the simple fact that it exists. As an engineer, I like the "law of gravity" analogy, and believe that it still has application here.

The fact that we have learned from the schoolmaster about God's "teaching and instruction" concerning gravity does mean it no longer applies, or has been "done away with". I fly my airplane without fear of the "curse of the law" of gravity, but NEVER do I make the mistake of thinking that I can, in hubris, operate in rebellion to his "teaching and instruction" and violate His design principles, which have not passed. Aviation still certainly can involve "sins unto death", and they are often mercilessly fatal. Aerodynamics, surface tension, and electromagnetics ALL seem to support the notion that a 'new dispensation' may have arrived. Not so, I argue. Call them "ceremonial" distinctions, if you wish; in the absence of a genuine understanding of God's creation, the specifications for a Cessna may appear just as arbitrary as for the Ark. And the reason why automotive oil is no good in a Continental engine is probably more difficult to understand than the reason why pork is still bad for YOUR motor.

(And the reason for that, of course, is that your motor is a SO much more sophisticated design. :shock: )

I have NEVER claimed that "keeping the law" - WHATEVER that means! - will allow one to be 'justified before God' or to
'earn salvation'. But His word clearly says that obedience to Him will result in blessings. This I not only believe, but KNOW. And even if it did NOT, since He says, "If you love Me, keep My commands" - I will try my best to do so.

 

[Mark C]

Our posts 'crossed in the night', ^_^, but I agree with your analogy completely:

...[I take Isaiah 1:11-14] ...to mean he hated the sacrificial system he himself appointed, I see it as a system that had degraded into a system of Indulgences like the Catholic church did in Luther's day.

So much of the Bible, including Yeshua's denunciation of the Pharisees for replacing His commandments with the "traditions of men", confirms this to my satisfaction.

Moreover, I would add only this to your comment. Note the very specific adjective He uses here:

My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.

His use of the proper adjective pretty well sums it up, IMHO.

 

[^_^]

I'm not sure what you meant by the

Moreover, I would add only this to your comment. Note the very specific adjective He uses here:

My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.

His use of the proper adjective pretty well sums it up, IMHO.

perhaps you could clarify
meanwhile, let's contemplate this:
if I keep the 7th day sabbath my way, who's sabbath is it?
If I decide the new moon is the full moon as I've heard some say, who's new moon is it?

 

[Anonymous]

...not allowing this to degenerate into an Achmed the Dead Terrorist "I keeeeeel you" discussion.

You are TOO funny. When my wife showed me one of his clips last year, I almost fell out laughing. Smart, loves God AND a good sense of humor. Your stock just went up 5 points in my book!

I do believe that the Isaiah passages that have been presented actually state my position. All those things that are included in what should be practiced are those things that are included in the big 10 categories. The big 10 are nothing more then general Law. The other Laws are case Law and are to be parsed out into the general Law categories. So the following list located in Isaiah are really part of the big 10.

On the other side, what does it really mean that the Mosaic Law has ended? Does this mean that the Moral Law ended? How are Christians to determine what is right and wrong? If we don't use the Bible as our standard of civil justice, what shall we use? Is the Bible our standard for personal morality, for family morality, for business ethics? Do we throw away the Old Covenant because it doesn't have any practical value anymore?

Perhaps I should have clarified my position more precisely. What I had said was:

In my opinion, the Mosaic Law has completely ended. All of it has ended. Even the Big 10...If it was required of the gentile nations, then it was always an eternal law of God, it still applies today, and the fact that it also happened to be included in the Mosaic Law is incidental...Had the command not to commit murder not been specifically included in the Mosaic Law, it would still have applied to Israel just as it applied to the gentiles. It was simply codified as part of their covenantal contract but murder was always a sin, whether the person was under the Mosaic covenant or not.

What I meant by this was that the Ten Commandments ended with the rest of the Mosaic law, but God's eternal morality continues to exist today in the same way as it existed even before the Mosaic law began. When Cain murdered Abel, he wasn't in violation of the Sixth of Ten Commandments, he was in violation of God's eternal moral law (Torah, if you prefer) against murder. This is an important distinction that we must understand or we can be fooled into trying to conform to the Mosaic law, which has completely passed away.

God's laws concerning what we call morality are eternal. They reflect His eternal characteristics. They have always existed and they will always continue to exist. Unlike ritual law, they need no special revelation because they appeal directly to the conscience. Although there is a great deal of morality contained within the Ten Commandments, we must be vigilant not to fall into the trap of trying to obey the Ten Commandments themselves. They were part of the Mosaic law and, in and of themselves, do not apply to anyone today. As New Covenant Believers, we aren’t to keep ANY of the Ten Commandments!

Now that having been said, let me be clear that we, as follows of Messiah, cannot murder, steal, adulterate, covet, etc., yet it's NOT because of anything to do with the Mosaic Ten Commandments. We cannot do these things because they go against God's eternal moral law which we know to be wrong. They were wrong before the Mosaic Law was given to Moses, and they continue to be wrong today. God's eternal morality never changes. But the minute we start to equate the Big 10 with morality, we run into Sabbath observance (which is not a moral imperative but a ritual one), and we throw out beastiality, drunkenness, pride, etc. (which are not covered in the Ten Commandments but are still moral issues that apply today). The truth is there are moral commandments all throughout Scripture; before, during and after Sinai. These moral commands are certainly summed up as "love God and love man" but the particulars are in Scripture for us to learn from. I understand what adultery is because God's Word defines it, but I am not obeying the Seventh of Ten Commandments when I refrain from committing adultery. I am obeying God's moral imperative to love my neighbor as I love myself and it would be evil to commit such a sin against my neighbor or against God.

It may seem like I am splitting hairs, but this single point has caused so much confusion in the Body, precisely because the Ten Commandments just sound so good that it is almost unthinkable to say they no longer apply. Any morality contained WITHIN the Ten Commandments certainly still apply to us all, but the "Ten Commandments" themselves do not. We must be careful not to claim that the "moral elements" of the Mosaic law have somehow carried over into the New Covenant because that is incorrect. The entire Mosaic law is a unit. It exists as a unit or not at all. The idea that the Mosaic law can be sliced and diced into ceremonial, civil, moral and ritual is not one we will find anywhere in Scripture.

What we might call "moral law" has not ended, but the Mosaic law certainly has. Scripture is profitable for us to learn of sin and righteousness, but we are not to again subject ourselves to Mosaic law. I hope I'm making my point clear. I'm really hoping to write a series of articles on this subject within the next year or so, time permitting. This is probably an even more vital subject for most Christians than Biblical marriage.

Love in Him,
David

 

[^_^]

while I agree with you, djanakes, at least in part, I must also disagree in part
yes, the moral code of Yahweh is unchanged, but the bugger of it all is that is what birthed the 10 commandments. It was his moral code written in such a way that a human could comprehend it. The real bugger of it is that we turned those commandments against ourselves simply by violating them.
and again, it wasn't Mosaic law that started tithing OR sacrifices. so what did? and what good were/are they?

 

[Anonymous]

While most take the text to mean he hated the sacrificial system he himself appointed, I see it as a system that had degraded into a system of Indulgences like the Catholic church did in Luther's day. That while they said they were following Yahweh, indeed they were not, just doing the motions and pretending to repent and be righteous all the while following as perverted a way as they could.

I'm certain that was what He meant. The context seems clear that God had grown weary of them continually sinning, thereby needing the ceremonies and rituals. He wanted them to simply stop their sinning. The point was that the ceremonies and rituals were distinct from the moral imperatives that God truly wanted them to obey. He spelled that out most clearly in Isaiah 1.

I find it interesting that while the Temple is recorded as destroyed and the nation of Israel/Judah dispersed about 70CE, almost all the commentators put Revelations written around 90 CE, and some of the other writings in a similar timeframe.

I was hoping we weren't going to there. Okay, as long as nobody is getting upset by discussing an alternate view of eschatology, let's briefly touch on this. You don't need to change your "end times" views to follow this, but you may end up with more questions than answers afterwards. I ask for your forgiveness and your prayers in advance. My goal here is not to prove eschatology but to defend the end of the Mosaic law. There are two competing views as to when Revelation was written.

1. The late date view (95-96 AD), which is the current evangelical position.
2. The early date view (65-66 AD), to which I believe Scripture testifies to.

The early date view believes that Revelation speaks of the birth pangs of the Kingdom, the BEGINNING of Church history. The late date view allows for a wide variety of interpretations, but usually viewing the book as the END of the Kingdom and of Church history. The late date view comes EXCLUSIVELY from EXTERNAL EVIDENCE based on a statement made by Irenaeus, who lived between 120-202 AD. His is the ONLY source for this late dating of Revelation. All other sources are based on him. Regardless, what matters is the INTERNAL EVIDENCE of Scripture itself. What does Revelation itself have to say regarding the date of its writing?

Rev. 11:1-2: "And a reed like a measuring rod was given to me, and the messenger stood, saying, “Rise and measure the Dwelling Place of Elohim, and the altar, and those worshipping in it. But cast out the court which is outside the Dwelling Place, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the gentiles, and they shall trample the set-apart city under foot for forty-two months."

This passage refers to the Temple of God standing in the holy city. Isaiah 52:1 and Neh. 11:1 both clearly demonstrate that the holy city is Jerusalem. The Temple of God is none other than the Temple that existed in the day of John when he was writing Revelation. Verse 8 further identifies this city.

Rev. 11:8: "And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

What city was the site of Messiah's execution? Obviously it was Jerusalem. What temple stood in Jerusalem at that time? The Jewish Temple, which was then known as Herod's Temple. We know this must be a reference to the historical structure for three reasons. First, it was located in Jerusalem. Second, Rev. 11:2 said it was to be under attack by the gentiles for 42 months. We know from history that Nero commissioned Flavian Vespasian, a Roman general, to engage Israel in war in February of 67 AD. He entered the promised land and engaged in battle against Jerusalem that spring. The Jewish war with Rome lasted from the spring of 67 AD until the temple fell in August of 70 AD, forty-two months later. Finally, the structure of Rev. 11:1-2 parallels Jesus' statement in His Olivet discourse found in Luke 21:20-24.

Luke 21:20-24: "And when you see Yerushalayim surrounded by armies, then know that its laying waste is near. Then let those in Yehudah flee to the mountains, and let those who are in the midst of her go out, and let not those who are in the fields enter her. Because these are days of vengeance, to fill all that have been written. And woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing children in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Yerushalayim shall be trampled underfoot by the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are filled."

Rev. 11:2b: "...it has been given to the gentiles, and they shall trample the set-apart city under foot for forty-two months."

These two passages speak of the exact same event -- the destruction of Jerusalem. So when was Revelation written? Is the late date view or the early date view correct? We know that the temple was destroyed in August of 70 AD. If the temple was still standing when John wrote revelation, he must have written it before 70 AD. However, I believe we can narrow the date down even further. Based on the vision of the seven-headed beast in Revelation 17, we can demonstrate conclusively that Revelation was recorded prior to June 9th, 68 AD.

Rev. 17:1-6: "And one of the seven messengers who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying to me, "Come, I shall show you the judgment of the great whore sitting on many waters, with whom the sovereigns of the earth committed whoring, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her whoring." And he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast covered with names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup filled with abominations and the filthiness of her whoring, and upon her forehead a name written, a secret: BABEL THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE WHORES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the set-apart ones, and with the blood of the witnesses of Yahushua. And having seen her, I marvelled – greatly marvelled!"

Rev. 17:9: "Here is the mind having wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits."

Verses 1, 3 and 6 of Revelation 17 describe a vision and verse 9 gives us clues as to the meaning of the vision. Almost all Bible scholars recognize that the seven mountains of Rev. 17:9 represent the seven hills of Rome. John points out that the wise mind will understand: the recipients of this letter lived under the rule of Rome, which was universally distinguished by its seven hills. How could the recipients of this letter who lived in the seven historical churches of Asia minor under Roman imperial rule understand anything else by this geological reference? Now let's look at the very next verse...

Rev. 17:10: "And there are seven sovereigns: five have fallen, and one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he has to remain a little while."

Verse 9 says the seven heads are seven mountains, which we know to be Imperial Rome. Verse 10 says they are ALSO seven sovereigns or kings: 5 in the past, 1 in the present, and 1 in the future. Remember that this is written from the perspective of John and his audience. There were five Soverigns in THEIR past, one PRESENT Sovereign, and one Sovereign was still to come. With all our patriarchy studies, we should be in a better position that most to understand this passage. The seven "heads" (leadership? authority?) represent seven Sovereigns from the seven mountains of Imperial Rome. Who were the Sovereigns that ruled the Roman Empire at the time of John? By what title were they known? The Caesars!

Who were the first five Caesars? Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius. The second Caesar, Augustus, was in power when Jesus was born (Jan 16, 27 BC to Aug 19, 14 AD). The third Caesar, Tiberius, was the Caesar in power when Jesus became Messiah and throughout His teachings (Aug 19, 14 AD to Mar 16, 37 AD). At the time of the early date view of Revelation, the first five had fallen. The sixth Caesar, Nero, was on the throne at the time John was writing the Revelation. Nero reigned from Oct 13 54 AD until Jun 9, 68 AD, when he committed suicide. The seventh Caesar, Galba, reigned for less than seven months, from Jun 8, 68 AD until Jan 15, 69 AD. John's vision offers strong evidence that revelation was recorded BEFORE the death of Nero, which would place it before June 9th, 68 AD.

The seven "heads" refer to both a historical location (Rome) and the political power (headship) of that state (Nero's reign). The internal evidence of Revelation itself clearly points to the early date view.

Love in Him,
David

 

[Anonymous]

I have NEVER claimed that "keeping the law" - WHATEVER that means! - will allow one to be 'justified before God' or to
'earn salvation'. But His word clearly says that obedience to Him will result in blessings. This I not only believe, but KNOW. And even if it did NOT, since He says, "If you love Me, keep My commands" - I will try my best to do so.

Technically, PERFECT obedience to Torah will result in blessings. LESS THAN PERFECT obedience to Torah will result in curses.

Romans 4:4-5: "And to him who IS WORKING, the reward is not reckoned as a favour but as a debt. And to him who IS NOT WORKING but believes on Him who is declaring right the wicked, his belief is reckoned for righteousness."

We must be careful what we are being obedient to. Anything less than PERFECT obedience to the Mosaic law brings only a curse, never a blessing.

Deut. 11:26-28: "See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: the blessing, if you obey the commands of Yahweh your Elohim which I command you today; and the curse, if you do not obey the commands of Yahweh your Elohim, but turn aside from the way which I command you today, to go after other mighty ones which you have not known."

Deut. 27:26: "Cursed is he who does not establish the Words of this Torah. And all the people shall say, Amen!"

Jer. 11:3: "And you shall say to them, "Thus said Yahweh Elohim of Yisra’el, "Cursed is the man who does not obey the words of this covenant"

Dan. 9:11: "And all Yisra’el have transgressed Your Torah, and turned aside, so as not to obey Your voice. So the curse and the oath written in the Torah of Mosheh the servant of Elohim have been poured out on us, for we have sinned against Him."

Neh. 10:28-29: "And the rest of the people, the priests, the Lewites, the gatekeepers, the singers, the Nethinim, and all those who had separated themselves from the peoples of the lands unto the Torah of Elohim, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, all who had knowledge and understanding, were joining with their brothers, their nobles, and were entering into a curse and into an oath to walk in the Torah of Elohim, which was given by Mosheh the servant of Elohim, and to guard and do all the commands of Yahweh our Master, and His right-rulings and His laws, and that we would not give our daughters as wives to the peoples of the land, nor take their daughters for our sons, and that if the peoples of the land bring wares or any grain to sell on the Sabbath day, we would not buy it from them on the Sabbath, or on a set-apart day, and we would forego the seventh year and the interest of every hand."

Nehemiah said they were entering into a CURSE by taking an oath to walk in the Law of God, given by Moses, to obey and follow all the commands of Yahweh, His commandments and laws.

Gal. 3:10: "For as many as are of works of Torah are under the curse, for it has been written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in ALL that has been written in the book of the Torah, to do them."

The Torah results in a curse WITHOUT REMEDY! Nobody trying to obey Torah was exempt. There is no remedy in the Torah itself for the curse that imperfect obedience to Torah will bring. All that the Old Covenant stipulates in such circumstances is punishment. There is no provision within the Mosaic law to provide a way out from being under the curse of the Mosaic law.

The Mosaic Covenant is a Covenant of Death that kills. The Messianic Covenant is a Covenant of Life that saves. The God-ordained PURPOSE of the Mosaic Covenant was to bring condemnation and death. The God-ordained PURPOSE of the Messianic Covenant was to bring righteousness and life.

2 Cor. 3:5-8: “Not that we are competent in ourselves to reckon any matter as from ourselves, but our competence is from Elohim, who also made us competent as servants of a NEW covenant, NOT OF THE LETTER but of the Spirit, for THE LETTER KILLS but the Spirit gives life. But if the ADMINISTERING OF DEATH IN LETTERS, engraved on stones, was esteemed, so that the children of Yisra’el were unable to look steadily at the face of Mosheh because of the esteem of his face, which was passing away, how much more esteemed shall the administering of the Spirit not be?”

This is a clear contrast between the Old Covenant of the letter and the New Covenant of the spirit. The letter kills. The spirit gives life. The Old Covenant is "administering of death in letters". The New Covenant is "not of the letter". It is simply not possible to read a contrast between a "letter" and "spirit" preaching of the Mosaic Torah into this text. This is comparing two distinctly different covenants.

Gal. 3:23-29: "But BEFORE belief came, we were being guarded under Torah, having been shut up for the belief about to be revealed. Therefore the Torah became our trainer unto Messiah, in order to be declared right by belief. And AFTER belief has come, we are no longer under a trainer. For you are all sons of Elohim through belief in Messiah Yahushua. For as many of you as were immersed into Messiah have put on Messiah. There is not Yehudite nor Greek, there is not slave nor free, there is not male and female, for you are all one in Messiah Yahushua. And if you are of Messiah, then you are seed of Abraham, and heirs according to promise."

After belief or faith in Messiah has come, we are no longer under a trainer. Either you have faith in Messiah or you are still under the training of the Torah. It's one or the other.

Gal. 3:30-31: "But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the female servant and her son, for the son of the female servant shall by no means be heir with the son of the free woman." Therefore brothers, we are not children of the female servant but of the free woman."

The Torah is like the slave woman -- cast her out of your life! And her son is like the works done under the Torah -- cast him out too! The slave woman's son (the works done under the law) will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son (that which comes by faith).

Gal. 4:21-26: "Say to me, you who wish to be under Torah, do you not hear the Torah? For it has been written that Abraham had two sons, one by a female servant, the other by a free woman. But he who was of the female servant was born according to the flesh, and he of the free woman through promise. This is allegorical, for these are the two covenants: one indeed from Mount Sinai which brings forth slavery, which is Hagar, for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to Yerushalayim which now is, and is in slavery with her children. But the Yerushalayim above is free, which is the mother of us all."

By equating the Old Covenant with the New Covenant, it's like saying Hagar was Sarah, or Ishmael was Isaac. Hagar brings slavery. Sarah brings freedom. Isaac was the faith child. If you already know all of this, forgive me for stating the obvious. We are to "obey", but what we are to "obey" is Jesus' commands, NOT the Mosaic law. That's the only distinction I was trying to make. Peace.

Love in Him,
David

 

[Mark C]

Wow, looks like I got way behind...

I'm not sure what you meant by the

Moreover, I would add only this to your comment. Note the very specific adjective He uses here:

My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.

His use of the proper adjective pretty well sums it up, IMHO.

perhaps you could clarify
meanwhile, let's contemplate this:
if I keep the 7th day sabbath my way, who's sabbath is it?
If I decide the new moon is the full moon as I've heard some say, who's new moon is it?

The Sabbath was made for man, but it is His. The Bible refers to His statutes, His ordinances, His Appointed Times, His feasts, and indeed His creation - since the earth and all that is in it is His.

I submit that what He hated was "your" appointed times that had been profaned, were no longer qadosh, no longer set apart, but a mixture of the clean and unclean, contaminated by pagan rituals, exactly as He had so clearly commanded not to be done. (Deut. 7, 12, 13, etc.)

Yeshua said the same thing, repeatedly, calling them "hypocrites" who had replaced His commandments with the traditions of men. So much so, in fact, that EVEN THOUGH they THOUGHT that they had kept the Passover, many times, and were actually IN THE PROCESS of sacrificing the final lamb as He died, and even uttered the same traditional words ("It is finished") at the VERY SAME TIME - they utterly missed the significance of what He was doing! (But the Centurion got it!)

That, of course, is my essential rationale (in addition to the obvious - obedience, because we love Him) for observing His feasts, as He commands - and not the paganized replacements (the spring fertility ritual to false goddess Ishtar/Easter, and the solstice Mithra rites prohibited in Jer. 10). Just as Torah is more properly understood as God's "teaching and instruction" ABOUT His design, so are His feasts and appointed times "for our good", that we might learn of His plan, and His heart.

But they should be His, as He Wrote, and not "ours".

 

[DaPastor]

Hello David,

What I meant by this was that the Ten Commandments ended with the rest of the Mosaic law

I am not sure what you are saying when you say that the Ten Commandments ended under the New Covenant. Here is a sample list of all commandments reiterated under the New Covenant except for the Sabbath:

No other gods before Him:

1 Cor 8:4-5 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

No graven images:

1 Cor 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

1 Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
1Jn 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen

Rom 13:9 No taking God's Name in vain

Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Remember the Sabbath: This one is not repeated as a command once in the New Testament

Honor father and mother:

Luke 18:20 Honour thy father and thy mother.

Eph 6:1-4 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Do not murder:

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Rom 13:9 Thou shalt not kill

1 Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Do not commit adultery:

Mat 5:28-32 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Rom 13:9 Thou shalt not commit adultery

Do not steal:

Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Rom 13:9 Thou shalt not steal

Do not bear false witness:

Rom 13:9 Thou shalt not bear false witness

Mat 15:18-20 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Do not covet:

Luke 12:15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Rom 7:7-8 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

[/quote][/quote]

 

[Mark C]

And so long as the GREAT distinction between "God's Law" and the "teaching and instruction" that He gave us ABOUT His "law" is understood, David - I do not think that the gulf between us is too wide in some respects.

To return to the physics analogies - since they at least seem clear to me:

Newton taught that "F=ma". Einstein came up with "E=mc squared". There was a clever T-shirt sold on my engineering campus years ago that had all four of the integral versions of Maxwell's famous equations on the front, and then said, "And God said, Let there be light!".

All of those things, to various limits of our human understanding, are "true". They are DESCRIPTIONS, or mathematical REPRESENTATIONS, of God's design. They are "teaching and understanding" about "His laws" - but they are NOT His Law!!!

Nor can we "violate" them. What does that word even mean, in the proper understanding? We can do something stupid - something that would get someone killed, like walking in front of a train - but conservation of mass, and energy, and momentum still apply - and an understanding of how His universe works will reveal the outcome of many actions to those with eyes to see.

The same thing is true the OTHER parts of His design! God's "Iron Law of Sowing and Reaping", just like Conservation of Mass-Energy, reflects our understanding of a basic principle. I have often explained that because of something engineers call "lag" -- sometimes people just "don't get it". In other words, if the CONSEQUENCE of an action - the inevitable train wreck - is delayed in time from the action that caused it, we don't connect cause and effect. We are able to ignore it, to even deny it. When sin and curse are not IMMEDIATELY obvious, Satan can say, "See? You DID NOT DIE," and then, "So, hey, try THIS!"

The Bible sometimes refers to this as being "stiff necked".

To the extent then, that we understand what Paul wrote to the "foolish" Galatians (as ^_^ noted far above) the point of the Torah is to teach us. God did not "do away with" anything; His teaching and instruction still apply, because His design remains, and "heaven and earth" have not passed. But He has "redeemed us from the CURSE" of our rebellion to Him, by intercession, by "becoming sin" for us, by paying the price.

Lots of analogies come to mind. Think of a not-so-bright student, who turns on a high-power X-ray machine while standing in front of it. He "deserves" to die, especially if the Designer put a warning label on the switch. If a caring creator pulls the plug from the wall, or interposes a lead vest, has the "law" been done away with? Everything still functions exactly as it was designed to; only the "curse" of foolish disobedience to written instructions has been avoided. It would be good if the student would learn from the mistake, too!

So, skipping ahead to this --

Technically, PERFECT obedience to Torah will result in blessings. LESS THAN PERFECT obedience to Torah will result in curses.

On this I disagree dramatically, David. There is a BIG difference between "falling short" and REBELLION, as any parent knows, and I can witness first-hand.

Avoiding pork brings a blessing, because one will be healthier. Being OBEDIENT to God's commandments concerning marriage brings a blessing - even for those of us who admit to making mistakes, to falling short. And trying to keep His feasts - even if we don't get them "perfect", brings a blessing, because He will use that obedience to TEACH us His ways.

I contend that this is what it means to "enter via the strait gate" and then walk the narrow path. How many times does He use the command to "veer not to the right nor to the left"? The point is that the path is a WALK, and He will light our path, if we are willing to follow Him.

 

[Mark C]

I won't belabor this, Pastor Randy, other than the obvious: :shock:

Remember the Sabbath: This one is not repeated as a command once in the New Testament

Of course, there are numerous references to Yeshua observing the Sabbath, commenting on the Sabbath, correcting those who "added to" His commandments about it, doing mitzvot (such as healing) on the Sabbath, teaching on the Sabbath, and so on. And, of course, there's Acts 15, where they noted that Moses is taught every Sabbath - almost like all agreed that people would avail themselves of those opportunities.


(And if I was REALLY cynical, I might wonder out loud about editing by those who had decided to CHANGE His Sabbath! Not that it was ever a capital offense for a lay person to have or read the Word, of course, or that the "graven images" commandment didn't suffer a pretty good mangling. )

 

[Mark C]

"It may seem like I am splitting hairs, but this single point has caused so much confusion in the Body..."

We are to "obey", but what we are to "obey" is Jesus' commands, NOT the Mosaic law. That's the only distinction I was trying to make. Peace.

Yeshua said this about it: (John 5:46-47)

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed Me: for he wrote of Me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe My words?

It reminds me a bit of the distinction between a grade-school text and advanced teachings, David - or "milk" versus "meat" if you will.

To fall back on my physics analogy - "now that Einstein has come, shall we say that Newton is "done away with"? For now we have a Better Equation, based on better physics."

It is true, that "F=ma" is an approximation, for non-relativistic velocities.

But it's "close enough for government work". And if you don't learn, and understand, the basics FIRST, you'll NEVER follow the advanced teachings.